TEXAN*s SEGA enthusiast thread - past and future hardware choices

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Texan, I disagree.

While it's hard to gauge the actual graphics of the games because the video quality is crap it appears that Sega GT would wipe the floor of the racing games.

I have a hard time believing you actually think a Voodoo 3 based system would be able to pull off better visuals than what the PVR2DC is capable of. One noticeable difference that comes to mind is that the Dreamcast could actually render 32-bits and display it on the screen. Geometry wise it was seen that SH4 could transform more poly's than the PowerPC 603. You seem to forget at the time the SH4 was capable of amazing FLOPS figure and was a really decent number cruncher for its time.

And to counter your argument. Shenmue is better looking than all those games.
 
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I liked Naomi. It was basically a DC with double memory for graphics and main memory. There was also 4 times the sound memory compared to DC. A lot could be done on the cheap compared to Model 3.

Then again, when Model 3 was first unveiled it was amazing for its time. The VF3 demo with Dural melting into liquid metal was jaw dropping. That was one of the most awe inspiring moments I remember.
 
Here are some Viper based games -

Jurassic Park 3 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJhKOHzKno&feature=related

Thrill Drive 2 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KRm2bA1Uk

GTI Club 2 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KRm2bA1Uk

Here are the specs of the Konami Viper -

CPU: Motorola PowerPC 603ev 200Mhz-250Mhz
GPU: 3Dfx Voodoo 3 2000/3000/3500

It's pretty much a SEGA BlackBelt.

When watching the above videos immediately you shall notice the Geometry, Lighting, General Special Effects are way beyond DC quality.

This proves that if SEGA had chosen the Blackbelt instead of Katana the DC would have competed favorably with the PS2 and enjoyed a long illustrious life.
3Dfx hardware of that era was extremely basic in its functionality. The only reason it was competitive in the PC and arcade space was because it cut a lot of corners to run fast. IQ was only ever praised when comparing it to other hardware that cut corners even more (Riva 128, or Rage 128 in 16-bit mode). If Sega had gone with 3Dfx hardware, we could forget about the IQ and high quality textures DC was remembered for.

I don't know what you see in those videos that you think is beyond the Dreamcast hardware. The polycounts of the driving games look to be less than Crazy Taxi, Tokyo Xtreme, MSR, F355, or TDLM. The most showy effects are lens flares, distance fog, and simple environment maps. Nothing that that hadn't been done on the PS1 or first gen PowerVR hardware.
 
Quite to the contrary, throwing a bunch of random, useless, money-sucking features into a product are a key identifier of a company that lacks vision and direction. What do you do when you're out of ideas? Start throwing poo at the wall and hope that eventually, something sticks.

The fact that they've been so successful in the hands of richer, better run companies shows these ideas aren't useless or "poo". Noticing the potential for online console gaming and so designing your console to be online capable, for example, doesn't strike me as "random", and the fact the online gaming features worked and lots of people used them means they weren't "useless".

And no, VGA support didn't bankrupt Sega.

Also, point of correction: SegaNet did not generate revenue, it absorbed it. That was a source of negative cash flow.

If people paid Sega for it, it generated revenue.

But SegaNet wasn't what I was actually thinking about. Subscriptions for PSO generated revenue. Taking a cut from their European DC dial up charges generated revenue. Selling games based on their online features generated revenue.

Charging people for online services accessed through your console isn't a useless, random, poo idea. Nor is having that idea evidence that you are out of ideas.
 
If Dreamcast was so horrible, why has Atomiswave been going for so long? Can you imagine a Voodoo 3 powering arcade games 10 or even 5 years later?
 
The 3dfx system started back in 1995/6 (forget which year lol) as a Saturn upgrade. Remember all those rumors in Next Generation, EGM, Gameplayer/Ultra GP? There was some truth to it, but by early 97 that was scrapped in favor of a new console. SoJ basically told SoA that they weren't going the upgrade route again.

I feel bad for SoA, as it was SoJ that told them to do the 32X in the first place (according to interviews with old SoA staff). It was probably SoJ that told SoA to commission the Saturn add on too ...

I wish the Saturn add on had come out now, simply because I'd like to have one. I like things that plug together and have lots of cables.

Is it true that AM2 were making VF3 for it?

This proves that if SEGA had chosen the Blackbelt instead of Katana the DC would have competed favorably with the PS2 and enjoyed a long illustrious life.

Because the one thing the DC really needed was worse textures?
 
It's true, and IIRC, that was one of the main reasons for the Saturn upgrade.

I'd thought so, but I've heard conflicting stories. One was that they were only working on a Saturn version (but it couldn't handle it), another that they were doing it for the Saturn 3dfx upgrade (but that got canned when the upgrade did), and another that they were working on both so that Sega could chose which option to go with (but then both got canned).

I bet there was always cool stuff in Sega's bins. Like those VR goggles for the Megadrive. I bet those gave you awesome headaches.
 
(Sega of America wanted the US 3D chip, Sega of Japan wanted the UK/JP one... how amazing !)
... and the EA rep wanted to give an explanation for their lack of DC support other than "we were scared of competing with Visual Concepts".

That Gamasutra article is very US-centric. As DC failed harder in Europe and Japan it's thus of limited use in explaining what went wrong (although the lack of funds and brand hurting previous errors were relevant everywhere).

One of SOE's many problems was that online gaming came very late, and there was little game support. Some of the 2K2 sports games had online support (US only?) but none of them were soccer. There was PSO and ... um ... Europe also got a 33.6Kb modem (and no ethernet addon, or even a modem upgrade), which may not have made any difference to lag (assuming it had enough download bandwidth) but did look bad in the media. A shame really, as the 60Hz PAL option was the best thing any console had ever done for European gamers but Sega still got stuck with a shafting-Europe reputation. Maybe they could have explained the NTSC-PAL problem a bit better to mainstream journalists.

IIRC half of SOE's marketing budget went on soccer sponsorship, when it was a year or so before soccer games appeared, and then they weren't very good. I find it interesting how SOA ensured there were good sports games at or near launch for North America, but no-one thought to do the same for Europe. Did these people not know how well FIFA sells?
 
I bet there was always cool stuff in Sega's bins. Like those VR goggles for the Megadrive. I bet those gave you awesome headaches.

They had a one and only outing outside of Sega at a Winter CES in Vegas (91? 92? God I'm getting old) and I had a go. I honestly wish I could remember more about it. All I remember right now is that the games were really limited and - similar to the "proper" VR headsets of the era - the lag on turning your head etc was poor. But it did work. Ish.

Sort of vaguely promising, but not surprising that they binned it in the end.
 
Sega was responsible for the demise of it's console business by:

1. Completely under-utilising their key franchises or just outright destroying them. Sonic, Space Harrier, Daytona? The only one they managed to help keep alive was Phantasy Star - and even that just barely survived...god bless very gimicky (at the time) console gaming

2. Listening to their fanbase about the design of the perheprials. Let me tell you something about the general public...they're morons. The company that designed one of the best and worst controllers of all time (speaking to the genesis 6 and 3 button controllers respectively) - managed to forget everythign good they'd learned and produce the Dreamcast controller...which was just god awfully....Do you remember the D-pad? Do you remember the pain? I do

Oh oh...and let's talk about the tamaguchi...err...I mean VMU - which in and of itself wasn't a horrible idea - but VASTLY underutilized in anything other than a football game. I don't even remember if they managed to release any VMU only games....and even if they did - they weren't memorable enough.

3. Bad, Bad...Terrible business decisions - like not bringing over key franchises from Japan (Looking at you shining force) - and while we're at it - making horrible deals with 3rd party dev's to bring games over to the DC - I can't speak about it (think the NDA is still good until I'm dead) - but I worked for Capcom when they brought over Resident Evil: Code Veronica...it wasn't a good deal for Sega...lets just put it that way

Jack
 
The upgrade for Saturn was being worked on in tandem with a VF3 port. My memory is a bit sketchy but I do believe it was more of a demo at the time and only a few characters were there with animations. Akira, Kage, and Pai are the three that I distinctly remember. This is just video of it that I had seen and never really the actual hardware.

It was SoJ's idea for 32X.
 
I've seen Konami Viper games next to Sega Model 3 and Naomi games, there was no way anyone will say Viper look better. The IQ were really poor.

For hardware the only thing better around the time was Naomi 2. Sega could have waited for PS2 and release Naomi 2 based Dreamcast for $299+. The Dreamcast wasn't released in the windows of opportunity for the generation. It was way too early. Similar to 3DO. It was just too early.
 
Former Sega Prez Discusses the Dreamcast's Failure


http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/...ez-Discusses-the-Dreamcasts-Failure?art_pos=5

http://bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed...s-failure-pranks-against-sony-his-ouster.html

"Former Sega of America president Bernie Stolar speaks out about the man who ousted him, EA's attempt to monopolize sports games on the Dreamcast, why the Dreamcast failed, and a legendary prank he pulled against Sony. 'I fought to have a modem on the platform. Maybe it was early — who knows. But I fought for a modem in the beginning because I wanted to have massively multiplayer online games on that system.' When asked about the console's online capabilities not catching on with consumers, he said, 'It doesn't surprise me, because there wasn't software tied into it. They were not building and going after software to start that. I mean, I was looking for developers and content providers to start doing that. Sega did not do that after I left. They just abandoned it.'"
 
Can anyone comment on why bump mapping was never used, and what kind of difference it could have made if it was? Simon perhaps? Was it down to a lack of art tools? The first I ever heard of render bump tools (something like this) was with Doom 3. Or was there not enough fill rate or bandwidth available?

Namco claimed they had fully exploited the DC with Soul Calibur when they announced Soul Calibur 2 for PS2, Xbox and GC but not DC. Perhaps if they had lower poly but bump mapped characters in a DC version... ? (Presumably they could have done higher poly and bumped characters for xbox.)
 
the numbers that circulate in here are a bit misleading....

the sh4 cannot perform t&l for 10 million polys at interactive frame rates. However, it CAN process significantly larger amounts of geometry than what was seen in commercial games.

The highest i have seen is dead or alive 2 with ~30000 vertices per frame in some scenes.

I got a dc devkit some time ago and managed to get 80000 verts per scene @ 60 fps with dynamic diffuse lighting and one texture. This was coded purely in assembler and the geometry was used as a simple raw, continuous vertex buffer with the shader being evaluated for every vertex.

Further optimizations using indexed geometry buffers and a triangle stripping library will give even better results.

My point is, the dc was a platform where you could get acceptable results without too much effort and the developers did not really bother to max it out. I'll post my demo when i finish it as i do not have a lot of free time, and i think i will get my point across.

i will try to post my demo sometime this year as i do not have much time right now. In its current state it uses a single dynamic light and a prebaked ambient occlusion texture. It looks good but i want to add some extra layers of environment mapping, bump mapping and maybe cook some shadows as well.

80k verts @60 fps means i will have to dedicate another 1/60th of a second for game logic, so for such levels of geometry i think that 60 fps is not feasible. 30 fps are achievable though, and with the use of a good triangle stripping library like nvTriStrip in my exporter i can bring the geometry dataset down to half the size with no quality loss...so i would be pushing the equivalent of something like 150k verts @30 fps along with plenty of time of time for game logic to execute...

I've been doing DC homebrew too. My best achieved poly count is 5.46 million per second... but half of the polygons are off screen in that instance. With all of the polygons visible (but not all front facing, I was drawing tori) the PVR seems to max out at 4.1 million polygons per second (and wind up with about ~30% CPU idle time then). I can process around ~6 millionish vertices per second with transform, perspective divide, a dot for the light, clamping light to >0.0, ambient add, and submit with UV coords. No skinning or clipping, though, and I've only been drawing a single model, which fits entirely into cache (it's about 15kb).

I haven't done much work on it recently, though, because I got hung up on getting a good triangle stripifier. I found a couple open source methods online, but the only one that I could get working (GNU Triangulated Surface Library) generated terrible, terrible strips. (A spiral with a 16 edge cross section does NOT need 514 strips! The Standford bunny was coming out at 4,000+ strips.) Sounds like I should look into nVidia's I guess...

Also DOA2 did closer to 50,000 polys per frame at 60 FPS, not 30,000 per frame. Sonic Adventure 2 averages 20,000 per frame at 60 FPS. Rez and Shenmue II peak at around 40,000 per frame at 30 FPS.

amk, Soul Calibur doesn't use bump mapping. The only places I've seen it are in the background for Sega Rally 2's title screen, and on some coins in Shenmue II.
 
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