indio said:
To set the record straight Russ never posted a link to a web log, web site or any other place. So in regard to ignoring . You are dead wrong.
Bullshit. he mentioned them and you completely denied their significance by posing the red herring most Iraqis do not use the Internet. So no, i am not dead wrong.
Red herrings or straw men? You have yet to say what makes the that way.
I have in fact already shown you how they werre. You haven't addressed many of my points and continue dodging the necessicity of supporting your arguments with anything fact based. You admit polls do not represent the whole of the community likewise you state it is impossible to know exactly how all Iraqis feel. Yet you continue speaking out of the other side of your mouth proclaiming they hate us. You couldn't possibly know that. It obvious in your pushing of invectives instead of facts. You continue to refuse to respond to the fact a large portion fo the populas is in support of the occupation. Why would they hate us AND be infavor of occupation? Insipid.
[quote\]Anyone can spew accusations.
BTW your argument is a farce. Saddam was a tyrannt. Your argument regarding the eye of the beholder is a red herring.
You bringing Saddam into a statement about liberation is a red herring. saddam gone does not = liberation. You need to come to terms with that.[/quote]
Of course, and you have spewed the most groundless and completely opinionated accussation lacking any factual representation. You turn to stereotypes and generalizations as though they were evidence and you continuously mentioned anonymous authorities. You are simply stacking one falacy on another.
You need to come to terms with the fact you are playing semantical games. Saddam was a tyrant. By removing him and establishing democracy we are liberating the Iraqis from the Baathist party. That is a simple fact. We have removed him from power and his power base has crumbled.
What you choose to argue is whether the Iraqi's polled feel liberated. You aren't even the slightest bit qualified to relate what that means or how these people feel and why.
You keep saying that this
Nothing you have present AT ALL has conveyed they hate americans.
How much evidence do you want ?
Any would be fine.
I also continue asking you to site your anonymous authorities. You are refusing to do that as well.
There are thousands of reports from every news orginaztion in the world of interviews with Iraqis specifically saying they hate americans. How many will it take to satisfy you. 100 quotes? 1000 ? how bout I get a lexus-nexus dump of all Iraqi interviews in the last 6 monthes? Or is that more posturing.
Bullshit. 1000 people is less than .001% of the population. Hardly a representative figure. Futhermore i could find thousands who support America especially considering your own polls show around 40% support of occupation. That makes for over 5,000,000 people.
Posturing on my behalf? Hardly. You are mentioning opinion statements you couldn't possible provide any factual basis for or even know about.
gas you say ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,866942,00.html
Of course it's all unprovable because it's against the geneva convention to sell distribute chemical weapons.
No, gas YOU say. You mentioned we sold him gas in the previous post. I demanded you provide evidence we sold him gas. You haven't done this. What you have done is rehashed old myths without provide any evidence any nerve gasses were sold to saddam.
Furthermore, in 1988, the Dow Chemical company sold $1.5m-worth (£930,000) of pesticides to Iraq despite suspicions they would be used for chemical warfare.
They make the matter out to seem as though Saddam directly purchased these chemicals. Do any research and you will find numerous Iraqi companies and government agencies purchased these precusor chemicals from the US and other countries. The argument at this point is absolutely ludicrous. The chemicals were precussors NOT nerve gasses. The "dual use" chemical argument is old and tired.
The Guardian's partisan and completely inaccurate portrayal of history is noted. Notice the complete lack reference to the French building Iraq one nuclear "research" facility planning to built others. Of course there is no mention of the French support for Saddam by supplying him with access to nuclear arms. No of course not.
I want a list of the chemicals sold and by whom and to whom. Not this rehashed conspiracy crap.
How historically myopic leftists can really be.
You have stated thusly:
Iraqis hate Americans
that you are against the occupation
you were against the war
Your getting warmer on your attibutions, one out of 3 ain't that bad.
It too bad you missed the point (you cut it out) that you haven't proven anything. You have only mentioned your belief in ME hatred of the US. You have provided any solutions or valid arguments.
What evidence have you presented? Where's the link?
Here you go again with yet another logical fallacy.
You have made a positive claim. You back it up. SO far the bulk of your own evidence does not support your argument the ME hates americans. Infact it shows a bulk of the Iraqi populas supports occupation. Rather a hard thing to do if they support our occupation of their land. I am sure you have something prepared to dismiss this though. I have mentioned it three or four times now and you have cut it out of your replies every time.
Where are the happy Iraqis hugging US soldiers? Where are the iraqis on TV , radio and in print telling everyone how much they like americans in anyway shape or form?
Shall we look at Russ' webblogs? No, oh wait, most Iraqi's don't use the internet so they are completely irrelevant.
Did you not just tell me you didn't ask for great signs of appreciation? Are you now, once again, contradicting yourself?
When I demand evidence I'm posturing. When I provide evidence that Iraqis hate americans , you ignore it.
OMG I am not ignoring any thing you post Indio. I am replying to every point you are making. You are the one butchering my posts and deliberately cutting elements out. For instance i have mentioned several times now the fact that 40% of those people polled supported occupation. This refutes your argument that Iraqis hate Americans. You have dodged this point over and over again.
You haven't provide ANY evidence Iraqis hate Americans. You have only mentioned your own opinions, polls which say nothing about what Iraqis feel toward Americans, and anonymous authorities. You refuse to address many of my issues and instead rail against other issues such as poverty, which is entirely irrelevant to this dicussion, rather than addressing the real issue (strawman argument).
For some ODD reason you think Saddam being out of power disproves Iraqis hate Americans.
Indio.
Let me break down for you what i think
I do not think Saddam being out of power reflects Iraqi opinions at all, by itself. I think it opens doors for them they could haven't opened under the Baathits.
I have never stated Saddam being out of power meant the Iraqis don't hate us. You are again railing against a strawman.
If Iraqis overthrew Saddam because we said so you might have a point but guess what that didn't happen?
Right, and 6 million jews wanted to die because they didn't revolt.
What is my proof iraqis hate Americans ? 1000's of interviews of Iraqis! they are consistantly anti-american .
None of which you have sited nor is 1000 people a representative sample of the Iraqi population.
40% of those polled in your survey were in support of the occupation. Kind of hard to be in support of an occupation by a country you hate.
40% comes to more than 3 million people.
Go read the paper. Go watch the news. How is that not proof? Is it absolute irrefutable proof? Of course not. that's impossible. Were is the proof of the opposite?
Were are 1000's of interviews with a differing view point? THEY DON'T EXIST! How do you explain that? Let me guess another red herring or some other excuse as to why you don't need to address that simple fact.
The only red herring here is your constant posturing and rehashing this rhetoric over and over again. 40% of the people polled are for the occupation. Thats a hell of a lot more than 1,000 people. I am sure i could find more than a 1,000 people in support of the US in Iraq. I sure i could find plenty in Russ' webblogs if he chooses to post them. I will invite them to this discussion. You ought to get their emails.
On another note ad homoniem are you familiar with it?
That is really pathetic Indio
:?
ad hom·i·nem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-nm, -nm)
adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.
If you view what i said as an ad hominem perhaps we should review your consistant attacks on Russ' and my "inability to reason" or lacking capacities.
You haven't even the slightest capacity
BTW your argument is a farce
Put up or shut up Indio
Enough of these mindless invective Indio!
You are simply trumpeting your horn and pulling you parties ideological line. (this is the funniest because I don't belong to a party) - i thought you'd like that one considering its accuracy
you haven't argument anything meaningful etc...
How does any of this determine the wether my statement is true or false.
Nice try at diverting the topic and dodging my requests.
I have attacked your arguments for their lack of substance and your consistant rehashing inlight of your own evidence contradicting your position. You refuse to answer my requests over and over again and it is undoubtedly irritating me.
If you stop the logical fallacies and address my points and requests we can get on this argument. Unfortunately you have chosen to throw out invectives and substanceless opinion rather than address anything.
The bottom line is you have as yet to address any fact with something that proves it invalid.
No, you are just refusing to respond to my points or rehash your unproven arguments. No matter how many times i request you mention your authorities and your references for the blatant and rather bigotted generalizations of the people of the ME you refuse to honor those requests.
The bottom line is as i stated before:
You have a preconceived world view and refuse to acknowledge anything contradicts it or that it could be wrong.
It's because you can't. You have little physical (interviews, actions ,protests) evidence to dispute what i've said.
Have you stated, several times now, you didn't request physical and great signs of appreciatation? Are you now, again, contradicting that previous accussation?
There is an entire years worth of evidence in the form of reports interviews and video in the wall street journal, new york times , bbc, npr,washington post , abc , nbc, cbs, cnn , to support my assertion the 90% of iraqis hate americans.
OMG how can you make such a blatant and completely unprovable accussation such as this?
How on EARTH can what these news groups posted show that 90% of Iraq hates America? Explain this to me. Breakt it down logically and mathmatically.
How can 40% of the people in your polls support US occupation and hate the US? How does this make ANY logical sense?
I awaite the convoluted rebuttle regarding you can support a country and hate them at the same time.
You have provided a damn bit of evidence to support such a radical statistical claim.
You have nothing to counter this.
Logica alone counters what you have said thus far.
If that isn't good enough tell me how it can be proved to you. Do you need 22 million Iraqis to walk by you and tell you they hate your guts?
Hell yes if i am going to say 90% of them hate me. Otherwise I'd have no clue - just like you.
I think you can accomoate a lower standard. This is not posturing i am serious. I was serious before too but you want to dismiss any attempt at actaully discerning the truth.
Your position is the only posturing. You making rampant generalizations based on unrepresentative samples of "1000s of people" all the while much larger samples say they support the occupation. Ridiculous.
