But i'm not fine with you placing the blame on the consumer
Steam
- Thread starter pjbliverpool
- Start date
You've made your argument, you don't have to agree with each other. Perhaps time to move on as well?
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AMD RX 7000-series gaming GPUs still mostly MIA in Steam stats — continued gains for Nvidia's RTX 40-series
Business as usual, statistics questionable.
IIRC that's the rumored(cited?) reason the Forza games get delisted after 4 years. Forza Horizon 1/2 also had their online services fully shut down last year. To play devil's advocate, I could see there being other issues with these service games when there's a user creation, upload, and sharing component. That stuff has to be actively moderated or it will turn into a cesspool. There might also be issues with the specifics of how the gameplay progression/unlock system ties into unlocks, microtransactions, DLC after a game has been formally delisted.
Are there any examples of unsupported and delisted F2P/GaaS/MMOs that use third-party IP (music, brands, etc) continuing to operate in perpetuity?
arandomguy
Veteran
One thing I'm wondering in terms of the hypotheticals of this issue is how do we concretely define a SP game that should be playable without online connectivity? The poster above for example brought MMOs. It's not like MMORPGs can't be played by oneself solo if you could hypothetically connect to an empty server that is self hosted. Also why would there even be a delineation point between SP and MP? If we want to go with that arguement a user can populate a game with people they find themselves.
It might not even be a cost issue (or at least realistic cost issue) as a lot of IP holders would want restrictions on how their IP is handled.
We already know with automakers they put restrictions on how their vehicles are depicated in games. I'm guessing they in general are going to be reluctant to have out their an unlimited type license, at least not for any amount that any game developer would realistically pay for.
This could also extend to a point in which the game company (say Ubisoft) has essentially certian stewardship obligations towards said IP and also can't just effectively let it go either as is.
But in general I think people should not look at it as just a technical software/hardware issue. As in the "cost" to continuing hosting these games in general isn't just a simple matter of a space for a server and associated software even with free labor.
It might not even be a cost issue (or at least realistic cost issue) as a lot of IP holders would want restrictions on how their IP is handled.
We already know with automakers they put restrictions on how their vehicles are depicated in games. I'm guessing they in general are going to be reluctant to have out their an unlimited type license, at least not for any amount that any game developer would realistically pay for.
This could also extend to a point in which the game company (say Ubisoft) has essentially certian stewardship obligations towards said IP and also can't just effectively let it go either as is.
But in general I think people should not look at it as just a technical software/hardware issue. As in the "cost" to continuing hosting these games in general isn't just a simple matter of a space for a server and associated software even with free labor.
I dont think we need to. It's more a question of when you sold me the game did you state that you were only selling it to me for a limited period of time?
When I bought The Crew the store page said "Buy The game" not "Buy The Game for 6 Months"
Road and track Present's The Need for Speed (aka nfs 1) had licensed cars and it was released 30 years ago it still works and it will still work in 100 years time if you have the hardware or a dos emulator
The limited license is between the car manufacturer and the publisher the consumer has no limited license agreement with the car manufacturer
Definitely no argument that Ubisoft should have delisted The Crew at least a year before shutting services down.
Beyond that though I'm really not sure what the issue is here. It's an online-only title, yeah? No online-only titles remain active forever. The fact that tNFS still works is irrelevant. Whatever archaic car licensing deals that EA made back in 1994 are almost certainly nothing akin to what publishers are having to deal with today. Since then we've had Porsche, Ferrari, and Toyota have long stretches of time where they didn't sign licensing deals with certain publishers. The auto manufacturers have all the leverage and don't seem to be the least bit afraid to walk away. Ferrari is a company that sues their own customers for modifying their car in a way they don't like.
Beyond that though I'm really not sure what the issue is here. It's an online-only title, yeah? No online-only titles remain active forever. The fact that tNFS still works is irrelevant. Whatever archaic car licensing deals that EA made back in 1994 are almost certainly nothing akin to what publishers are having to deal with today. Since then we've had Porsche, Ferrari, and Toyota have long stretches of time where they didn't sign licensing deals with certain publishers. The auto manufacturers have all the leverage and don't seem to be the least bit afraid to walk away. Ferrari is a company that sues their own customers for modifying their car in a way they don't like.
8 Year Old Game Is Currently Steam Deck's Most-Played
Newly-released statistics reveal that a classic eight-year-old game is currently the most-played title on the Steam Deck, beating some huge names.
Newly-released statistics reveal that a classic eight-year-old game is currently the most-played title on the Steam Deck, beating some huge names.
arandomguy
Veteran
Rainbow Six Siege is not advertised as playable for a limited period of time. Helldivers 2 is not either. Elder Scrolls Online is not either (just going note here that ESO's sub is optional).
If we want to look at subscription (non optional) MMORPGs then strictly speaking none them imply that the subscription would only be offered for a limited amount of time either. Should that subscription be offered in perpetuity as well?
If we want to delve even deeper what about games that are free up front then MTX? Those MTX purchases are not defined as a limited time either. If MTX purchased don't count then what if the "SP" is a MTX purchase? Red Dead Redemption 2's SP for example is purchasable is as separate MTX unlock.
More complex then is how much game functionality needs to be retained? Because it's easy to say for example a game like COD with a SP and MP component the SP should be accessible but again you'd need to define the SP side. Or a game like Hitman that the game should be accessible partly just without the online components. But you'd again need to define that otherwise you can access the game partly, that part is the title screen/lobby at the extreme. Or maybe it's just the training map/tutorial section.
Also I think it should be kept in mind that not all games are going to ones that are publisher owned and from large (without defining this) publishers.
arandomguy
Veteran
Let's be realistic here there is no way any car manufacture is likely going to agree to remotely the same licensing terms as back then. I'm guessing the vast majority would like the choice of being able to have a Porsche in a game that they can only play say 10 years (or whatever) instead instead of a Borscht knockoff in a game that their future progeny could play 100+ years from now. I'd assume they'd also likely vastly choose the former all else equal.
Again I think this great conceptually and all but in practice it's completely different and there is a whole slew of things to consider.
arandomguy
Veteran
Just going to add another wrinkle to consider in terms of server tools and that is regions. A game might shutdown in certain regions but not others. Enabling cross region access may not be possible either due inherent issues like latency, localization, etc. but also legal issues like different licensing (other regions might be licensed out) and/or different registrations (eg. EU data regulations vs NA, or outright hard restrictions like China).
Maybe your NA player base is say very healthy and even actively profitable and you're EU base is down to a dozen weekend warriors. Server tools being released out in the wild aren't going to stay in the EU. If you're an Asian developer/publisher do you now have to consider additional risk factors in releasing games in other regions?
Maybe your NA player base is say very healthy and even actively profitable and you're EU base is down to a dozen weekend warriors. Server tools being released out in the wild aren't going to stay in the EU. If you're an Asian developer/publisher do you now have to consider additional risk factors in releasing games in other regions?
Really? Asseto Corsa Competizione has licensed cars it will still work in 100 years time and I can name a ton of other racing games that are the same.
ps:
Other games don't seem to have problems releasing with a dedicated server like Minecraft, Counterstrike, Dota 2 , DayZ ect
pps: I think your missing the point, the point is selling a game that will only work for 6months without telling anyone.
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Games with dedicated server releases aren't immune from losing functionality; the master server that handles authentication and server indexing between the clients and the servers can still be shut down, any kind of centralized stat tracking and progression run by the studio can be shut down. You can't throw in your Battlefield 2 disc and expect to get multiplayer service. You can't throw in your Half-Life CD and expect the won.net master server to still be active and populate a server list. ACC will probably end up the same way whenever their backend services get shut down.
And you can do that because it's a PC game with a command line prompt that exposes the entirety of the game's back-end functionality. The Crew is a console game where all the back-end services and connectivity is expected to be turnkey with minimal user friction. Using a PC to play a console game is like using a knife and fork to eat a Big Mac -- how you choose to eat junk doesn't change the fact that you're eating junk.
GhostofWar
Regular
Is there any reason steam seemed to stop doing those multi copy bundles? They were especially handy for like 4 player coop games where you could get 4 for the price of 3 or there abouts. The group i generally game with found it handy when someone wasn't interested in a game so we could send them a copy without having to stump up full price and then if they didn't like it no one was really out of pocket.
I really hope your not trying to insinuate I'm playing on a console
Did you steal that quote from me
arandomguy
Veteran
Those bundle deals would have been dependent on pricing of the publisher side as well. My guess is it's likely part of the general readjustment of digital distribution pricing. The publishers realized they were being way too aggressive in terms of pricing and trying to capture volume during the earlier days of digital distribution on the PC. Refund policies also nowadays I'm guessing serve a portion of the on the fence market.
arandomguy
Veteran
I feel we're going off the track here a bit in the terms of discussion. We don't know what The Crew's licensing terms are or if that is that is even the/a reason for the shutdown (unless theres new information?) and that was just idle speculative dicussion. Also that, at least for me, the dicussion is more on the broader concepts involved here and not just The Crew specifically.
If we want to discuss The Crew specifically I will add in terms of licensing that licenses are not blanket and highly depedent. My understanding with car manufacturers for example is they tend to be most open/leniant on licenses to actual racing (especially sim type racing) games that feature just racing specific cars. The least leniant and hardest to get licensed on the opposite spectrum would be games that use consumer vehicles in open driving type environments, especially if it involves "street racing."
This is an unavoidable limitations of the forum model but I haven't voiced any specific opinion on this issue other then some notice should be reasonable. So if you feel someone doesn't think any notice is neccesary you're discussion is with someone else. Other then that I don't think an online discussion of hammering out a firm number on this subject is very interesting.
In terms of listing exceptions and all thats fine I guess? I never said there are no games with public server tools released. It's not a technical issue, and games inherent from a technical stand point don't even need any online connectivity at all.
But ultimately the issue is that not all games are designed around those lines. And for those games that are while the technical side might be simple once you factor in everything else it really isn't all that simple.
I still have to stress that in the abtract you need to keep in mind it wouldn't just be specifically about The Crew and Ubisoft (or whatever thing the fickle internet mob hates currently, I'll refrain from ranting into this) it would need to apply to everything in terms of the rules you set. Which why again I say it's conceptually easy to say all games should never have their services shutoff or an altenrative should be provided, but in practice you're looking at way more considerations.
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