Star Citizen, Roberts Space Industries - Chris Roberts' life support and retirement fund [2012-]

[Davros]

Are you listening at all? That will all gradually unlocked

Are you? it was never stated they would be gradually unlocked

 

[Grall]

it was never stated they would be gradually unlocked

To be fair to the game and its devs though, you can't just conjure up 400+ solar systems instantly. By necessity the creation process has to be sequential, which would favor a gradual unlocking strategy because it makes no sense storing up all the solar systems and releasing them all at once when you're finally finished making all of them.

 

[eastmen]

To be fair to the game and its devs though, you can't just conjure up 400+ solar systems instantly. By necessity the creation process has to be sequential, which would favor a gradual unlocking strategy because it makes no sense storing up all the solar systems and releasing them all at once when you're finally finished making all of them.

There was a stretch goal for that !

Stretch Goal 41m was

Procedural Generation R&D Team – This stretch goal will allocate funding for Cloud Imperium to develop procedural generation technology for future iterations of Star Citizen. Advanced procedural generation will be necessary for creating entire planets worth of exploration and development content. A special strike team of procedural generation-oriented developers will be assembled to make this technology a reality.



Anyway to be fair the 6m stretch goal says the game will launch with 100 star systems.

Stretch goal 4m says that for every 100k pledged a new system will be added. But to be fair it lists from 3.1 to 4m all the system names. So I don't think it meant to continue for ever just for the 1m

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals

 

[Grall]

Procedural Generation R&D Team

Yeh, I saw something about that somewhere else in this thread. But it seems the idea is/was to have developer-designed systems AND procedurally generated systems?

Procedural generation is all well and fine, except it tends to be fairly samey within the constraints set by the algorithm the system is based on. A game that's largely procedural generation would feel - to me at least - as very fake, and "soulless". Human beings with their imagination are better at creating varied stuff, stuff which feels meaningful - but are obviously limited by manpower and time in ways computers are not...

 

[Davros]

Does anyone remember the planets in Freelancer more or less identical

 

[swaaye]

Yeah this is where you're supposed to realize that you'll be flying around in your silly research vessel exploring auto generated hollow fakey worlds with your clannies. Except they will have already been explored by another intrepid gang anyway. Oh boy. Thrills. Kinda like the Mass Effect 1 modular boredom VistaPro planets, I imagine.


Gimme the single player space opera.

 

[nutball]

Yeah this is where you're supposed to realize that you'll be flying around in your silly research vessel exploring auto generated hollow fakey worlds with your clannies. Except they will have already been explored by another intrepid gang anyway. Oh boy. Thrills. Kinda like the Mass Effect 1 modular boredom VistaPro planets, I imagine.


Gimme the single player space opera.

Sounds like the early visions for EVE.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I really can't understand why people trust websites with no proven history of delivering accurate reports/facts.

You clearly mistook "The Escapist" with "Kotaku".

Here's how the Escapist vetted their 9 (nine) sources:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ns-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Plus, their story has both sides as they contacted CIG before launching the article, and posted their comments along with the accusations.

Compare this to Kotaku and Polygon who frequently launch one-sided character-assassination campaigns (see Max Temkin, Brad Wardell et al) and then casually fail to mention the outcome of said accusations. They make The Escapist and Lizzie Finnegan look like the bastion of ethics and good journalism.



Furthermore, what's the difference between this article from The Escapist and Kotaku's articles about Konami's working conditions?
1 - CIG has a battalion of fanatic followers who poured thousands upon thousands into a game that has pretty much nothing to show, who cover their ears and yell "NANANANANA" whenever someone raises questions about the game.
2 - The Escapist has been neutral regarding Gamergate, so of course Kotaku/Gawker has an axe to grind (if you're not with us, you're against us mentality).

 

[Rodéric]

You clearly mistook "The Escapist" with "Kotaku".

Here's how the Escapist vetted their 9 (nine) sources:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ns-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Plus, their story has both sides as they contacted CIG before launching the article, and posted their comments along with the accusations.

Compare this to Kotaku and Polygon who frequently launch one-sided character-assassination campaigns (see Max Temkin, Brad Wardell et al) and then casually fail to mention the outcome of said accusations. They make The Escapist and Lizzie Finnegan look like the bastion of ethics and good journalism.



Furthermore, what's the difference between this article from The Escapist and Kotaku's articles about Konami's working conditions?
1 - CIG has a battalion of fanatic followers who poured thousands upon thousands into a game that has pretty much nothing to show, who cover their ears and yell "NANANANANA" whenever someone raises questions about the game.
2 - The Escapist has been neutral regarding Gamergate, so of course Kotaku/Gawker has an axe to grind (if you're not with us, you're against us mentality).

Good, maybe they could have talked a little more about their sources from the start, I assume they'll do so from now on.
As for whether I take The Escapist seriously, no, Kotaku and Polygon neither.

 

[Jupiter]

The author is a friend of Derek Smart (see twitter). Who copies Smarts blogs and glassdoor loses either way.



She wrote that she could verify the ex employee by ID cards. CIG does not have such cards. Ridiculous beginner trolls.

"then you verified a company an unidentified employee by examining his "company ID card with the name blocked out." You might be interested to know that CIG does not issue any company ID cards at any of its studios!"



https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

"We have since been advised by several reputable gaming publications that they have been offered these stories, but refrained from pursuing them because "there was no hard evidence and not enough sources." This indicates that these fabricated stories had been collected and were shopped around by a common source to find somebody who could be fooled into publishing them. It would explain the haste with which you wanted "to go to print" - you may have been sold a load of goods that otherwise another publication would get the privilege to break this "scoop".

Hostile work environment, and racist discriminatory hiring practices demands a response. If The Escapist do not response it could easily lead to future lawsuits, investigations, loss of future recruitment talent, loss of future business partnerships, loss of sales, etc.

It was extremely damaging article and a surprising lack of integrity for the escapist to publish with such shoddy sources, 0 facts, limited vetting, etc. Many people could potentially lose their jobs, both at the escapist and at CIG because of this. Hostile work environment itself is subjective and hard to prove one way or another. But racist hiring discrimination absolutely demands a response.

Like in the picture above Smart looks like he's taking credit for the Escapist's sources.


Kevin Dent about that ongoing drama

I have never spoken to Chris Roberts, I have never been on an email with him and nor have I given him investment, strategy or any other advice. I wish I had.

I have also not backed his Kickstarter Star Citizen.

I want to get into the bones of this, Chris Roberts and his firm is being accused by The Escapist of a bunch of horrible things. I know some facts from talking to friends in the studio and the industry.

First off, they have owned their home for years, Chris is actually a rich guy, but let me come back to that.

He basically raised about 90M USD on kickstarter minus taxes, the vig from Kickstarter and the marketing costs.

Secondly, at least one of the sources allegedly showed The Escapist his company ID, I called a guy I know who works there and asked him about the whole story and he seemed pissed off that he never got a company ID.

There are allegations of collusion, ageism, sexism and racism. The problem is, is that there are current employees who fit that demographic.

The icing on the cake is that we have Derek Smart, yes that Derek Smart the champion of the people….. I kid, I kid. Standing on the sidelines acting all angry demanding that they show him their books……… to a title that he is competing against……

OK first off, Kickstarter is not AngelList, it is a crowd funding platform to which the end user has /Drum roll please/ ZERO RIGHTS of material value. They are not investors, they are not pre-orders, they are buying risk. It is basically the same as me telling you in Vegas “If you give me $1,000 and I manage to win, I will give you some sugar”. The big difference here is that I don’t have to pay the casino a commission and the IRS never hears about it.

They initially pitched a super small title, then they upsold aggressively –perhaps too much so- they missed milestones, it happens, no one wakes up in the morning and thinks “Sweet mother of god, I really hope I miss the heck out of these milestones”.

Missing milestones does not equate to being a bad game as Pac Man, Bioshock Infinite and WoW for example can attest to.

I have no idea if Chris Roberts firm needs capital, but if he did, a one legged Investment Banker could run a Mez Finance round, an equity sale or raise senior debt. Why? They have already sold to a million gamers. They have proven the market.

As promised, let’s return to the topic of Chris Roberts wealth. Now I know a lot of rich people. A lot. They all have one thing in common, they want to be richer. The late Robin Williams used to tell a joke about a chat with George Bush and Bill Gates –pick one, I don’t care:

Bush: Mr Gates, I believe that you are trying to create a monopoly!

Gates: That is absurd, Monopoly’s a game, I want to rule the frigging world.

Let’s say Chris Roberts could scam 10% off the top? That is under $9M, under $4.5M after Uncle Sam gets his pound of flesh.

Here is my question: Why on earth would he expose himself to that sort of risk? He wants to ship this game and not make millions, he wants to move the needle and make BILLIONS.

He isn’t working on this title for the KS capital, he wants to make a TON of cash.

Next point, people are telling me that he should just ship the core title. Guys, this isn’t LEGO, you don’t ship half the movie, you don’t serve a coke without the Jameson, you ship the entire thing or die trying. That is how game development works FOR THE MOST PART, YES THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS HELLO MINECRAFT YOU SCREWED UP MY ARGUMENT WITH YOUR EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE…….. never mind.

Let’s say he ships the title dirty/buggy, its ok and Polygon gives it a 5/10, other sites are around that neighborhood. The game has a Metacritic now of lets say 60/100. The way Metacritic is set up if the ALL of the sites change their reviews and give it a perfect score? Metacritic stays the same.

The greatest lie gamers have been told is that Metacritic does not matter. It does. It impacts future sales, potential investments, talent acquisition. IT MATTERS and I hate it.

I have no earthly idea if Star Citizen will ship, zero. I do not belong to a small contingent. Any 3rd party who claims to know is just not being honest.

Lastly I have been told two things today: 1. Not to eat yellow snow and 2. That even if the game sucks right now that they should ship it as this is damaging to the industry to not ship on the planned date….. I swear.

I want to be super articulate here: I cannot enumerate the ways in which I want you to get the hell out of here.

Late shipped games are not strawberry’s and cream for the industry, but they don’t really damage the industry. What damages the industry is crap games, buggy games and unfinished games. Every stat, metric and data point that I have ever read speaks to this with authority. It speaks in resolute tones based on evidence and it makes stupid statements quiver to their feckless foundations.

I think we can all agree this post is impressive in that I used “Feckless” in an actual sentence.

 

[Jupiter]

I repeat it:
"OK first off, Kickstarter is not AngelList, it is a crowd funding platform to which the end user has /Drum roll please/ ZERO RIGHTS of material value. They are not investors, they are not pre-orders, they are buying risk. It is basically the same as me telling you in Vegas “If you give me $1,000 and I manage to win, I will give you some sugar”. The big difference here is that I don’t have to pay the casino a commission and the IRS never hears about it."


[QUOTE="ToTTenTranz, post: 1873344, member: 13524]This isn't even about fun anymore. It's about a very high-risk speculation with real money.
It's a case where the increasing flow of crowd-sourced income resulted in completely screwing up the game and many of its initial supporters (me included).
Had the game been limited to its initial budget of ~$6M from two crowdfunding campaigns back in 2012, we would probably have had a final release sometime last year and they probably would have started production on a sequel by now.

I paid for a Wing Commander spiritual successor back in 2012, when the crowdfunding campaign only mentioned a story-driven single-player space simulator and didn't say anything about a MMO with a currency convertible to real-world money.
And before people come out screaming "B-BUT SQUADRON 42!!", it doesn't seem like it's going to be released this year.
We're now getting into Q4 2015 and there's no release date, so maybe 2016? 2017? Ever?[/QUOTE]

CIG has always spoken of a MMO-like part. Squadron 42 will be presented on Saturday. Probably they will show the release date too.

I repeat something else again:
"The greatest lie gamers have been told is that Metacritic does not matter. It does. It impacts future sales, potential investments, talent acquisition. IT MATTERS and I hate it.

[...]

Late shipped games are not strawberry’s and cream for the industry, but they don’t really damage the industry. What damages the industry is crap games, buggy games and unfinished games. Every stat, metric and data point that I have ever read speaks to this with authority. It speaks in resolute tones based on evidence and it makes stupid statements quiver to their feckless foundations."


I am in favor to split the thread. Once everything about Star Citizen (facts and news), and in the other thread you guys can badmouth about Star Citizen as much as you want. I'm tired. The last pages can be deleted safely. I have hardly reading pleasure here because simply get the same nonsense arguments again and again. I want neither read about Smart, nor people who do not understand that the game comes only in 2017th.

 

[Grall]

2. That even if the game sucks right now that they should ship it as this is damaging to the industry to not ship on the planned date….. I swear.

The guy makes an interesting point, but even though he is right by saying that it would be wrong and bad for everybody shipping the game on time in a poor state, it doesn't change the fact that RSI should have focused on completing the core game - the one people actually paid them to make - first. They could then focus later on working on the first-person fighting and the planetary bits and whatever other ideas they've hatched in the time after the initial kickstarter.

 

[Jupiter]

@Grall
That may be true. Therefore it is now too late. As for the FPS it has always been the plan to board spaceships etc.

Regarding the spaceship sales. You need a constant turnover. It was hard to find real estate for their studios.
The group in Santa Monica will move into a bigger one.

____
Squadron 42 will have another composer (Geoff Zanelli). Pedro Macedo Camacho focussing on Star Citizen

Some of Zanellis work:
-Hitman (film)
-Into the West
-Outlander (worked with CR on this)
-The Pacific (together with Hans Zimmer)
-Lone Ranger (together with Hans Zimmer)
-Gamer

You can find projects and samples here: http://www.geoffzanelli.com/projects/

https://twitter.com/pedrocamacho/st...actions=1443895347&uid=383297110&nid=244+1489


You will hear some of it (Squadron 42 Soundtrack) on Saturday at CitizenCon.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The author is a friend of Derek Smart (see twitter).

Just saw twitter and I can't find any significant interaction between them before September 2015 (which is when the article came out).
Did you check twitter to validate that point?
I hope it's not because they "follow" each other, since dsmart follows >2100 people and lizzyf620 follows >1700.

Who copies Smarts blogs and glassdoor loses either way.

Glassdoor reviews went live after the conversations and exchange of e-mails took place between the reporter and the sources.
Yes, some of the sources took some text from said e-mails and put it in the company's review at glassdoor. I don't see what's wrong with that. They already had the work of writing it in the first place, why write it again with different words?

It doesn't change anything.

She wrote that she could verify the ex employee by ID cards.

She said that one of the methods she used to vet for one of the sources was said ID card. Fortunately, a decent journalist uses more than one method to vet the sources, which she did.
All sources showed proof of owning LinkedIn accounts that were confirmed to be/having been working at Cloud Imperium Games, through the employer's own page.



Cloud Imperium Games has bluffed with legal action, but it'll never go above that.
If they do start a trial, book accounts will be thoroughly studied, promised deadlines will be scrutinized, people will talk under oath.
All shit will hit the fan, and that's the last thing Roberts&Co. wants. Specially if one third of the stuff that's been said about his wife (former b-movie actress/model turned Vice President of Marketing, yeah..) turns out to be true.

 

[Davros]

people who do not understand that the game comes only in 2017th.

It will be released in 2017 and only 2017 do you have a source for that ?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

By December 2017 they will swear the game had always been promised for 2019 and not a single day before.

But fear not, because by 2017 we'll probably have another module in alpha form about taking your space pet to the space vet.

 

[Lefungus]

I am in favor to split the thread. Once everything about Star Citizen (facts and news), and in the other thread you guys can badmouth about Star Citizen as much as you want. I'm tired. The last pages can be deleted safely. I have hardly reading pleasure here because simply get the same nonsense arguments again and again. I want neither read about Smart, nor people who do not understand that the game comes only in 2017th.

Excising contrarian opinions from your favorite game's thread sound like censoring to me.
We need both yours and the "we sell 400$ virtual ships" posts.

 

[Billy Idol]

It is frustrating that we don't know whats going on and who is right.

Someone is lying.

 

[Jupiter]

Glassdoor reviews went live after the conversations and exchange of e-mails took place between the reporter and the sources.
Yes, some of the sources took some text from said e-mails and put it in the company's review at glassdoor. I don't see what's wrong with that. They already had the work of writing it in the first place, why write it again with different words?

She said that one of the methods she used to vet for one of the sources was said ID card. Fortunately, a decent journalist uses more than one method to vet the sources, which she did.
All sources showed proof of owning LinkedIn accounts that were confirmed to be/having been working at Cloud Imperium Games, through the employer's own page.

Even Mashable disagrees with the way The Escapist haldled the sources:
While we're trying to present a neutral picture of things, this bears repeating: a secondhand quote from an unnamed source should never have been printed here the way it was. We're reproducing it simply to lay out all the facts, and not to perpetuate any questionable reporting. Here's what the Society of Professional Journalists has to say about the handling of anonymous sources.

Otherwise, the article is generally a rundown of what is going on. But it appears to be entirely neutral.
http://mashable.com/2015/10/05/escapist-star-citizen/#B31mmLDsYmqi

Cloud Imperium Games has bluffed with legal action, but it'll never go above that.
If they do start a trial, book accounts will be thoroughly studied, promised deadlines will be scrutinized, people will talk under oath.
All shit will hit the fan, and that's the last thing Roberts&Co. wants. Specially if one third of the stuff that's been said about his wife (former b-movie actress/model turned Vice President of Marketing, yeah..) turns out to be true.


Glassdoor reviews went live after the conversations and exchange of e-mails took place between the reporter and the sources.
Yes, some of the sources took some text from said e-mails and put it in the company's review at glassdoor. I don't see what's wrong with that. They already had the work of writing it in the first place, why write it again with different words?

Lizzy sited "they showed me their ID card" as proof that someone she was talking to was a verified CIG employee. Given CIG do not have any ID-cards for their staff she's now trying to suggest it was a Keycard she was shown. This does not help as there is nothing to verify on a Keycard other than maybe a serial number at best. You could show a hotel or carpark keycard and get the same "verifiable" weight.

She answered: http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQfPthPWEAAjZCD.png
after someone said that this cards were without ID on it.

Journalistic integrity: https://twitter.com/lizzyf620/status/650619036372484096


Anybody can write there. One has even wrote there that he is not a developer and that he makes this just to show this.

I knew she is lying becuase I do knew people which where recetly in the Santa Monica studio. This individual was never there. She just want to be a copie of her fried Smart.

She said that one of the methods she used to vet for one of the sources was said ID card. Fortunately, a decent journalist uses more than one method to vet the sources, which she did.
All sources showed proof of owning LinkedIn accounts that were confirmed to be/having been working at Cloud Imperium Games, through the employer's own page.

The story was shopped around and CIG was told by numerous big outlets that they wouldn't run it because of how absurd the baseless claims were. There is no evidence. Everyone could say this.

Everyone who has spent even a modicum of time in the industry knows to stay away from anything said personality even thinks about touching, because once the dirty mittens touch it, there's no way to get an unbiased story out of it until its well and truly over.

Cloud Imperium Games has bluffed with legal action, but it'll never go above that.
If they do start a trial, book accounts will be thoroughly studied, promised deadlines will be scrutinized, people will talk under oath.

CIG has no deadlines. There is no publisher.

We will se.

Specially if one third of the stuff that's been said about his wife (former b-movie actress/model turned Vice President of Marketing, yeah..) turns out to be true.

This game has raised over 90 million USD without a game. Without publisher. This shows that she is better in marketing than any other person in the business.

Then why more African-American people work there? Just recently there were in ATV and RTV which were to be seen.


We should split the thread.

Excising contrarian opinions from your favorite game's thread sound like censoring to me.
We need both yours and the "we sell 400$ virtual ships" posts.

I do not repeat the same stuff over and over again. To weep many pages over donations brings nothing.

They are not prices. They are pledge levels and the ships are just a thank you.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Even Mashable disagrees with the way The Escapist haldled the sources:

As if Mashable was some kind of reference for journalistic integrity and not a crappy clickbait site that mostly limits itself to regurgitate other websites' stories?

While we're trying to present a neutral picture of things (...)

Though anyone following this thread knows that you're not...

Lizzy sited "they showed me their ID card" as proof that someone she was talking to was a verified CIG employee.

As one of the several proofs they presented.
I know you're trying to avoid the LinkedIn proofs because of course let's focus on the one thing that might be a mistake. For a "neutral picture", of course.

I knew she is lying becuase I do knew people which where recetly in the Santa Monica studio. This individual was never there. She just want to be a copie of her fried Smart.

You think they would show all this internal crap to formal visits from backers who spent thousands on the game?

a secondhand quote from an unnamed source should never have been printed here the way it was.
(...)
The story was shopped around and CIG was told by numerous big outlets that they wouldn't run it because of how absurd the baseless claims were. There is no evidence. Everyone could say this.

"Numerous outlets" = Kotaku, who published this:
Investigation: A Video Game Studio From Hell

Brilliant, right?
Again, the only difference between this story and many others from Kotaku/Polygon is the existence of an army of fanatics who will troll to death anyone who questions "The Chairman". eastmen spent hundreds on the game and his account was banned from the forums from doing just that.
Maybe the way the forums are handled by their community managers is just a reflection of what's happening in the company?

Everyone who has spent even a modicum of time in the industry knows to stay away from anything said personality even thinks about touching, because once the dirty mittens touch it, there's no way to get an unbiased story out of it until its well and truly over.

So you think journalists should be afraid of all kinds of hot topics or just the ones that will anger all the Star Citizen fanatics?

CIG has no deadlines.

How convenient.

We should split the thread.

This is the thread to talk about the game. There are positives and negatives about it, and both will be discussed here.
If you want a thread where mentioning bad points is forbidden, perhaps you can create one with the title "Star Citizen fanboy thread - no criticism allowed".
Or you can go to the RSI forums, as they definitely follow that rule to the absolute extreme.


BTW, an official update from The Escapist:

The Escapist, notwithstanding Cloud Imperium Games' notice and posting, stands by its coverage of Star Citizen and intends to continue to investigate the developing story. Since publishing our original stories, we have been contacted by, and are currently interviewing, additional sources corroborating a variety of the reported allegations. Additionally, if Mr. Roberts' offer for The Escapist to "meet the developers making the game and see how we're building one of the most ambitious PC games first hand" remains open, we take the opportunity to accept such invitation so as to hopefully provide the public with sufficient information and opportunity to vet such sources' allegations and claims for themselves. We have also communicated the foregoing directly to Cloud Imperium Games.