*spin-off* Next Gen Gameplay and/or Graphics Differentiators

[Scott_Arm]

From all descriptions, Euphoria does not sound like an API with some tools around it. They don't even bother selling it as a middleware, which is a good sign of the complexity in getting good results. Including it in an SDK sounds like it would be pointless.

On top of that, a joint venture between Microsoft and Sony to develop a game development SDK sounds as unlikely as someone giving me a million dollars for being awesome ... Anyone have any surprises for me?

 

[ERP]

UGH!

I think you just have a very idealized view of software development. It really is not just a case of plugging together off the shelf components, every library has a support cost, the bigger more varied the functionality the bigger the support cost. When 3rd party technology has gameplay or visual quality implications it's even more complicated. There is an enormous gulf between demonstrating something and getting it to the point you can ship it.

You also seem to think that Euphorias approach is the way forwards.

My point wasn't what it would cost for MS or Sony to match Euphorias solution, it's that Euphoria has invested a lot of money and is still a LONG way from a broadly usable solution. It's not even clear that their approach can ever provide one.

IMO given the state of the technology, if we really believe it's the thing we should be concentrating our effort on, we don't need consolidation, if anything we need to broaden the number of viewpoints.

But to me this comes back to games need to decide where they spend there resources, gameplay isn't like graphics, small technical changes can have large ramifications.

 

[liolio]

This is perhaps a little broader than the original topic, but I'm wondering what people think will be the differentiators for next gen titles. Both graphically and gameplay wise.

I hope that the differentiator will be in the simulation / physics more than in significant improvements in either pixel quality or quantity.

As far as eye candies are concerned I don't expect stuffs significantly better than any nowadays AAA title. I can't simply see the industry swallow another increase in production costs. We will deal will marginal increase in assets quality possibly for the whole gen.

On console we were used to low quality assets and somehow BF3 proved a taste of the future as it allowed for one our systems to run better (close to PC standard) assets. As a side note all of sudden the difference in quality between pc and console is reduced, significantly.

I also watched quiet some comparisons between low/high setting made on PC and the difference is lesser than what I expected. Basically when you run the same asset (and that frame rate is sane) it's tougher to make a difference than with console running shitty textures. I know that PC are hold back by console development and that games are mostly doing nothing that relevant out of the high card aside obviously pushing a lot more pixels + AA. I read all the complain about Crisis 2, bf3.

To me it looks like we are hitting many practical limitations mostly human, from the overall costumer perception, production capacity held by costs (mostly human).

The main differences for me on the graphical pov only:
* Running PC quality assets with proper texture filtering will be the main differentiators to the base IQ.
* More standardized use of decent quality global illumination and radiosity.
* better shadowing
* overall things should look cleaner smoother
* I don't expect tessellation to do that much on a difference. Will still make things better here and there.

Now I expect thing to get significantly better when it comes to interactions/simulations/physics.
If things don't look significantly better I would want to have them to looks significantly more alive.
We need more particles, fluid and clothes hair simulations .
We needs improvements in animations both Euphoria approach and more standard like Uncharted, Batman AA & AC, Assassin Creed (using the relevant approach where it makes sense). As asset quality is unlikely to change more time and processing power and RAM has to be thrown at that problem.
I would like to see "wind" having a effect on all the aforementioned point.
More resources thrown at AI so things like crowd react better overall.

My belief is that improvements put together with what could be considered lesser graphical improvements could in fact achieve a higher effect than the sum of the elements.
There are many things that can be done now on a decent system, things needs to come together.

I believe that something that can give away a lot of the realism is sound. We're getting close to having proper procedural destruction but taking together the other improvements it's going to be "given away" by sounds. When things breaks they make sounds you expect them, you can't have generic sound when a glass breaks the instant a piece hit the ground without making sounds the brain knows... it's like too obvious graphical artifacts. The same is true for crowd and many things like the light sound you and other make while moving, walking, etc.
Not sure about the general perception here or if it's my sound system that sucks but I feel like sound sucks / lags behind.

As for gameplay I don't expect much changes to existing genres neither I think that cores gamers want change to their games. May be next generation systems will makes a better place to diversity but that implies changes in the available input methods. Pads won't cut it for many genres, I'm not sure devices like kinect 2 will either, that's may be where Nintendo has(d) more chances with it's tablet like controller. Imho that best chance for a changes in gameplay (not through diversity) is the introduction of new input on top of pad and Kinect. I think N pretty much nailed it with the WiiU whether the system and the implementation (should support two controller imho) sucks is another matter tho. I think that MS should copy it with thinking twice about it. It's a selling point for parents it frees the tv when needed. With windows 8 coming on tablet the benefit would be obvious for xbla games, touch based upcoming PC games (that's sound crazy I don't know for you guys but to me it sounds like woa! things are changing.
There are 7" tablet selling at 75$ so it's a significant premium vs a standard pad but it might prove worse it.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I know many existing gamers would be up in arms about such ideas, but for gaming to expand it needs to be accessible to people without awesome gaming skills. A decent amount of processing power could be given over to supporting them with 'soft' games that have plenty of aids to make the experience easily enjoyable and not frustrating for them.

Interestingly enough this is exactly what STAT based RPGs attempt to do. Remove entirely the skill requirement from the player. How you build your character, his stats, etc. all determine his abilities. Not shooting ability, or aiming ability, or twitch reactions, but mental ability and the ability to roleplay being they key factors.

Almost all all RPGs today however aren't about roleplaying someone other than yourself. They are all, almost every single one of them, about using YOUR skill in the game and not your characters skill in a game. Hence, a progression to player skill becoming paramount even in RPGs where player "twitch" skills should be irrelevant.

For example, ME1 where player shooter twitch skills weren't terribly relevant, and thus you had a progression of an average character you are roleplaying that eventually becomes a badass that you are playing as you invest skills and abilities that improve them. You had character progression because the game semi-isolated player shooting skill from character shooting skill. And regardless of how good of a shooter person you were, you could progress equally well in the game because you were actually roleplaying a character. The shooter perspective was just a different "point and click" view point. Instead of top down point and click, you had first or 3rd person point and click. But hardcore players were too stupid to realize that and thought the shooting was "broken" when it wasn't.

Versus, ME2 where player shooter twitch skills meant every single character you played was a crack shot who could head shot anyone at anytime (if you're good at shooters) or every single chacter you played was incompetant at shooting and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (if you aren't good at a shooters). There was no character progression because it was all based on the players skill and NOT the characters skill. Hence you were never roleplaying in the game, but every single character you took control of, was just you in a different body. Here we change the game into an FPS and ditch the RPG elements as anything other than window dressing. Hence far less casual friendly since player "twitch" skills now determine how successful you'll be.

But on any internet gaming forum you'll see anything that attempts to embrace players without "twitch" gaming skills as bad. Personally I'd love to see a return to Console RPG systems like in the early Final Fantasy games that are far more casual gamer friendly than the Final Fantasy games of today. Or more stat based RPGs that allow a player to play a character that isn't just a mirror of themselves skillwise, again embracing casual and hardcore players alike.

Where thinking is emphasized over mindless shooting skill? To me, it's no surprise that as Final Fintasy's gameplay became more realtime (and thus less casual friendly) that it's sales also started to decline.

Regards,
SB

 

[Prophecy2k]

Interestingly enough this is exactly what STAT based RPGs attempt to do. Remove entirely the skill requirement from the player. How you build your character, his stats, etc. all determine his abilities. Not shooting ability, or aiming ability, or twitch reactions, but mental ability and the ability to roleplay being they key factors.

Almost all all RPGs today however aren't about roleplaying someone other than yourself. They are all, almost every single one of them, about using YOUR skill in the game and not your characters skill in a game. Hence, a progression to player skill becoming paramount even in RPGs where player "twitch" skills should be irrelevant.

For example, ME1 where player shooter twitch skills weren't terribly relevant, and thus you had a progression of an average character you are roleplaying that eventually becomes a badass that you are playing as you invest skills and abilities that improve them. You had character progression because the game semi-isolated player shooting skill from character shooting skill. And regardless of how good of a shooter person you were, you could progress equally well in the game because you were actually roleplaying a character. The shooter perspective was just a different "point and click" view point. Instead of top down point and click, you had first or 3rd person point and click. But hardcore players were too stupid to realize that and thought the shooting was "broken" when it wasn't.

Versus, ME2 where player shooter twitch skills meant every single character you played was a crack shot who could head shot anyone at anytime (if you're good at shooters) or every single chacter you played was incompetant at shooting and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (if you aren't good at a shooters). There was no character progression because it was all based on the players skill and NOT the characters skill. Hence you were never roleplaying in the game, but every single character you took control of, was just you in a different body. Here we change the game into an FPS and ditch the RPG elements as anything other than window dressing. Hence far less casual friendly since player "twitch" skills now determine how successful you'll be.

But on any internet gaming forum you'll see anything that attempts to embrace players without "twitch" gaming skills as bad. Personally I'd love to see a return to Console RPG systems like in the early Final Fantasy games that are far more casual gamer friendly than the Final Fantasy games of today. Or more stat based RPGs that allow a player to play a character that isn't just a mirror of themselves skillwise, again embracing casual and hardcore players alike.

Where thinking is emphasized over mindless shooting skill? To me, it's no surprise that as Final Fintasy's gameplay became more realtime (and thus less casual friendly) that it's sales also started to decline.

Regards,
SB

Silent Buddha I have to say that reading this post has been a revelation for me and a bloody awesome breath of fresh air, that at least one person on the boards i post on finally "gets it" with regards to traditional RPG systems and twitch/skill-based "dudebro" mechanics.

I'm with you all the way brother on every point, and I thank you sincerely for helping me to realise that i'm no longer alone in the gaming universe with my views.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They don't hav to be RPGs though. Take a game like Warhawk. You could have a character who's an ordinary soldier with fairly wild aim. You could invest points in aiming to improve the quality of his autoaim. Or you could invest points in something else maybe . Or even have a difficulty slider perhaps so those with awesome skills can do their thing and those without can enjoy the game without needing to learn new skills. Yes, there'll be issues in balancing, and maybe you'd separate those with real skill from the amateurs or something. The underlying point though is that I feel games should be smarter and read that many gamers haven't got perfect control and when the avatar doesn't act as they want it to, it annoys them. Platformers are another good one. I've seen people play LBP and get frustrated with the mechanics. I think it'd be possible to add 'driver aids' to make the control easier.

 

[almighty]

Physics is what will change the game, Every game system is eventually going to get to the point of true photo-realism but it's no good having things look real if you don't react and behave real.

I wonder how long it'll be before you get proper blades of grass in worlds, Closest I've seen was in Star Fox on Game Cube, Although iirc they just used a fur shader? It was very good though.

Is grass something tessellation would make viable?

 

[TheChefO]

From all descriptions, Euphoria does not sound like an API with some tools around it. They don't even bother selling it as a middleware, which is a good sign of the complexity in getting good results.

Yes, but they are also not reinventing the wheel every time Rockstar says "hey we got a new game so we need you to cook up some magic sauce again".

They have libraries. They are building onto and modifying the existing ones, sure, but let's not act like this is an impossible task that only a team of skilled ninjas can hand craft per game...

The whole point of presenting this solution as a platform for almost every game is that the costs of developing it will be amortized across a ton of titles and on two systems.

As I presented in the list:

COD
BF3
GTA4
Red Dead
LA Noir
All sports games
Uncharted series
Assassins Creed series


All of these are looking to replicate a believable, reality-based world.

Even in cases where it is fantasy/scifi based:
Oblivion
Skyrim
Gears series
Halo series
Resistance
Killzone series
Fallout series
Bioshock series
Batman AA/AC

...they are looking to create believable worlds, which share reality based characteristics with physics and AI behaviors.

The usability of these libraries covers the vast majority of popular games and could be expanded to cover the next growing phenomenon ... zombie games. The impact of such a venture would be across the board and really devs shouldn't be competing on "Hey look my character doesn't react when someone runs into him, but my game has better graphics, so I win!". All games nextgen should have that as a baseline. Just like in any modern society, we all have suitable drinking water ... we don't have businesses competing with others based on the fact that half of their workforce will be sick due to questionable water ... they compete in other ways.

Same goes for film media ... they don't compete on the fact that their camera works and competing film cos have half busted cameras.

Or more directly, they don't compete with other films based on the sobriety of their actors ...wait ... do they?

I think I made that clear, but if not, no this wasn't in any way a dig on Uncharted...

I'm not even sure you can make that case of a Euphoria-type system significantly sacrificing other parts of the system as Rockstar games have generally been up near the top in visuals at the time of release, and gta5 looks to build on this ... Granted, there are some that are better, but generally limited in scope (less stuff to render, better IQ).

 

[Scott_Arm]

Yes, but they are also not reinventing the wheel every time Rockstar says "hey we got a new game so we need you to cook up some magic sauce again".

They have libraries. They are building onto and modifying the existing ones, sure, but let's not act like this is an impossible task that only a team of skilled ninjas can hand craft per game...

The whole point of presenting this solution as a platform for almost every game is that the costs of developing it will be amortized across a ton of titles and on two systems.

...

I'm sure that NaturalMotion is building upon their previous efforts internally, improving their tools and building a library of interactions they've "solved." We have absolutely no insight into how this Euphoria content is produced or how it plugs into a game.

 

[AlNom]

Does it really work with non-human creatures? How much work is it going to be if so far all their efforts have been towards human simulation?

All the enemies in Halo are of wildly differing species and body proportions. They're still bipedal, but that doesn't mean they would behave anything like a human given how their body proportions are different. The Elites have reverse jointed legs too! It's a similar argument for the more exotic species in Gears.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The best example for procedural animation is perhaps Spore. As long as the bone algorithms aren't tied to human proportions and take into account weight factors, they should work.

The real issue here is TheChefO's belief that the entire computing industry has had its head in the sands regards reuseable code. Reuseable code by design has been around for a good 30+ years, and there are good reasons the same routines get rewritten time and time again that aren't to do with developers being too thick to realise how much easier life would be if they just used a few common libraries they could plug into.

 

[TheChefO]

Does it really work with non-human creatures? How much work is it going to be if so far all their efforts have been towards human simulation?

All the enemies in Halo are of wildly differing species and body proportions. They're still bipedal, but that doesn't mean they would behave anything like a human given how their body proportions are different. The Elites have reverse jointed legs too! It's a similar argument for the more exotic species in Gears.

It won't/can't work for every possible solution.

Having said that, I'm sure they could modify it to be flexible on limb size/proportion without breaking the bank.

Inverted limbs and whatnot is obviously too niche to develop for the entire platform, but if 343 wants to put in the time to add inverted leg creatures to the library, I'm sure nobody would complain, and their game (and future games) would be better off for it.

I think the key for something like this to work on such a broad basis would be to have a Euphoria developer environment (3Dsmax plugin?) which enables realtime alteration of the existing libraries to use for their specific cases. But again, vast majority of games will be using human and human-like characters.

____

Just downloaded Endorphine 2.7LE

http://www.naturalmotion.com/endorphinLE

It seems they also have a light version for gaming without the fancy stuff called Morpheme.

 

[TheChefO]

The real issue here is TheChefO's belief that the entire computing industry has had its head in the sands regards reuseable code...

No the real issue here seems to be you have an issue with me.

This is a thread for nextgen gameplay (and graphics). I bring up examples of games that pushed the envelope this gen and brainstormed ways to introduce them as a standard moving forward so that further progress can be made and built onto the efforts already put forth and you try to vilify me for *gasp* wanting to improve the industry.

How about you stick to the thread topic instead of trying to twist my words and tell me what I meant by them.

 

[kagemaru]

No the real issue here seems to be you have an issue with me.

This is a thread for nextgen gameplay (and graphics). I bring up examples of games that pushed the envelope this gen and brainstormed ways to introduce them as a standard moving forward so that further progress can be made and built onto the efforts already put forth and you try to vilify me for *gasp* wanting to improve the industry.

How about you stick to the thread topic instead of trying to twist my words and tell me what I meant by them.

The problem is you're ignoring very good and key points why things aren't how you perceive them to be.

Sorry but when you start debating with people much more knowledgeable than you, who have experience, then that's when you enter wacko world IMO and should no longer be taken serious.

I had a great response to your last post directed towards me, but then I saw your replies to ERP and just decided "F*** it" because you obviously already have your mind made up.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This is a thread for nextgen gameplay (and graphics). I bring up examples of games that pushed the envelope this gen and brainstormed ways to introduce them as a standard moving forward so that further progress can be made and built onto the efforts already put forth and you try to vilify me for *gasp* wanting to improve the industry.

The issue is you repeat your viewpoint again and again, neither learning to change it nor accepting the thread is ready to move on and agreeing to disagree. And in the process you have a knack for being rather insulting about it IMO. The 'universal game platform' idea and common modules had its discussion, and the feedback told you it doesn't work, including a previous thread that I spun off for you as it was an idea that merited discussion, but here you are again suggesting that the GTA engine could be pretty much repurposed to play all these other top-selling titles as it looks almost as good and adds behavioural animation to boot. Which implies that the developers of other games either aren't as good as Rockstar because they are managing less features in the same hardware, or they are just shunning valuable features because the gamers aren't demanding it and so they don't want to go the added mile (lazy devs). I see that as an moderately insulting attitude towards the developers.

The reasons games this gen haven't all sported the same feature set as GTA or LA Noire or Battlefield 1943 is because of finite resources and necessary compromises. A wish-list of features for next-gen that include behavioural animation has to acknowledge that it'll come with sacrifices elsewhere, if it's even possible, while the belief next-gen can be served by a set of standardised plug-in modules is unrealistic as you have been told. Hence, although worth mentioning as desirable within your freedom to a POV, it isn't a discussion thread worth pursuing, especially to the sacrifice of the rest of the thread that may want to discuss more than just modular game development and behavioural animation.

If you'd hear the problems and adjust your viewpoint, rather than repeating, "well R* have got it working so it can't be that hard; just roll it into a simple plugin middleware or SDK," you wouldn't incur ire.

 

[TheChefO]

The issue is you repeat your viewpoint again and again, neither learning to change it nor accepting the thread is ready to move on and agreeing to disagree. And in the process you have a knack for being rather insulting about it IMO. The 'universal game platform' idea and common modules had its discussion, and the feedback told you it doesn't work, including a previous thread that I spun off for you as it was an idea that merited discussion, but here you are again suggesting that the GTA engine could be pretty much repurposed to play all these other top-selling titles as it looks almost as good and adds behavioural animation to boot. Which implies that the developers of other games either aren't as good as Rockstar because they are managing less features in the same hardware, or they are just shunning valuable features because the gamers aren't demanding it and so they don't want to go the added mile (lazy devs). I see that as an moderately insulting attitude towards the developers.

The reasons games this gen haven't all sported the same feature set as GTA or LA Noire or Battlefield 1943 is because of finite resources and necessary compromises. A wish-list of features for next-gen that include behavioural animation has to acknowledge that it'll come with sacrifices elsewhere, if it's even possible, while the belief next-gen can be served by a set of standardised plug-in modules is unrealistic as you have been told. Hence, although worth mentioning as desirable within your freedom to a POV, it isn't a discussion thread worth pursuing, especially to the sacrifice of the rest of the thread that may want to discuss more than just modular game development and behavioural animation.

If you'd hear the problems and adjust your viewpoint, rather than repeating, "well R* have got it working so it can't be that hard; just roll it into a simple plugin middleware or SDK," you wouldn't incur ire.

Well with that, I apologize.

I didn't realize that wanting a Euphoria-type standard was insulting, but "NO MORE DAMNED BUGS" isn't........

My viewpoint is obviously not the most knowledgeable on the board for every subject at hand. However, that does not mean that every developer has already thought of everything all at once and all came to the same conclusions for everything and thus there is no need for a discussion board, merely a sequential blog post for those gracious enough to let us know how things are and why they are that way.

No, this is a discussion board for exploring thoughts and ideas and yes, even challenging them.

The end goal is better understanding for all involved (even within one's self) and with it, hopefully progression.

As for me not hearing the problems and adjusting my viewpoint; I listen, and adjust where it's fit. That doesn't mean I listen, disagree with a post, and bow down like a yes-man. It's called a discussion board which brings me to the next point. None of my posts prevent others from posting their own comments or views so your notion that I should effectively shut up, is beyond ridiculous as a message board Moderator.

It was never my intention to insult any developer or belittle their work. If any dev here felt that I insulted their work, I apologize.

 

[upnorthsox]

Does it really work with non-human creatures? How much work is it going to be if so far all their efforts have been towards human simulation?

All the enemies in Halo are of wildly differing species and body proportions. They're still bipedal, but that doesn't mean they would behave anything like a human given how their body proportions are different. The Elites have reverse jointed legs too! It's a similar argument for the more exotic species in Gears.

Isn't this though where a more physics based system could be of greater benefit? A handcrafted animation would probably end up aping human movement or something more familiar, but a more physics based animation could bring out new movement and capabilities not thought of or it could show that your design is unworkable. I'm reminded/thinking of how T-Rex was originally thought to have moved like a bear standing on its hind legs instead of like an ostrich with a massive head.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I didn't realize that wanting a Euphoria-type standard was insulting,..

That wasn't the complaint. There's nothing wrong with wanting better animation. It's expecting most devs this gen to include it because GTA did while looking just as good, even after you've been informed that it's neither easy nor that games are so comparable.

Isn't this though where a more physics based system could be of greater benefit? A handcrafted animation would probably end up aping human movement or something more familiar, but a more physics based animation could bring out new movement and capabilities not thought of or it could show that your design is unworkable. I'm reminded/thinking of how T-Rex was originally thought to have moved like a bear standing on its hind legs instead of like an ostrich with a massive head.

I'm thinking there could be substantial processing required for true physics simulation because of the adaptive behaviour. I know dinosaur simulation has used learning algorithms to determine how they walked, which could identify motion patterns that could be used in game, I guess. But if you look at something like robotics, that has exactly the same requirements only with games using virtual sensors, don't they consume notable amounts of CPU power to manage motion? Somewhere along the line I expect there must be compromises, similar to GI hacks, to get the impression of free, physical movement but with some constraints enabling it to fit into the consoles' capabilities. Does Backbreaker execute multiple complex interactions at once?

Also a bit of Googling threw up this, which is simulating a horse in Endorphin. Natural Motion should be able to adapt their realtime techniques accordingly. Well, RDR used Euphoria, so I guess we can look at the horses for canned animations or not. youTube videos show typically wooden animations for the steeds, but also the characters in the main part. I'm not seeing very organic animation here, so Euphoria must be running at a pretty low level.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Euphoria is just one piece of the physics engine in RDR. I don't believe they use it on the horses at all, except for maybe when they ragdoll in death. Try to find some slow-mow footage of people getting shot off of their horses etc. They do use it in the player movement, for controlling the placement of his feet, and in the inertia as you turn while running. That's just a guess. Overall, I don't think Euphoria is anywhere close to being their general system for animating players. Lots of the animation is standard canned stuff. People getting bumped, knocked down, trampled, shot etc is where you'll see it. Or if you run and jump off a hill and start rolling down head over heels, you'll see the protagonist curls into a ball to protect himself as he's tumbling.

Max Payne 3 seems to be pushing it a little bit more, but even then, it still uses a lot of canned animation.

That said, it is hard to tell what specific reactions and features are a result of Euphoria vs the rest of the physics, animation systems.

 

[TheChefO]

That wasn't the complaint. There's nothing wrong with wanting better animation. It's expecting most devs this gen to include it because GTA did while looking just as good, even after you've been informed that it's neither easy nor that games are so comparable.

I posted that in this thread. That's the context that you missed.

It would have been nice to see more games use Euphoria this gen other than RDR, GTA4, LA Noir, SWTFU, SWTFU2, but with the increased power of nextgen and a collaboration by Sony and/or MS to handle the licensing & business issues, this could be a reality for more than just a handful of games nextgen.