Sony PlayStation 5 Pro

[Cyan]

enthusiast gaming

think so. It could be exciting for the core gamers, specially imho the AI upscaling, and maybe FG. Diminishing returns come into play. If this was a regular mid-gen refresh console it'd be one of the less exciting consoles to date, 'cos you'd be getting some extra performance on RT, and what else, 20fps more on average or a little bump on resolution? You need lots of extra power to pull that off and perceptibly it's not that much. With AI upscaling and maybe FG that might change the perception. Thing is, could vanilla PS5 use PSSR?

 

[RDGoodla]

Plenty of RT modes are likely limited due to CPU as much as GPU.

Dragon's Dogma 2 is a recent one. Starfield is another. I'm sure we're gonna see more as well. Easy to forget(or conveniently ignore) it's only been in the past year or so that we've finally made the switch to actual next gen titles. I'd be absolutely shocked if GTAVI isn't 30fps.

Is Starfield and DD2 has raytracing in consoles?

Besides GTA VI is console exclusive for a long time so developers will design a 60fps mode. We have seen PS5 runs Marvel Spider Man 2 at 70+ fps with RT and a dense open world.

 

[davis.anthony]

Point is, I dont think it's gonna be a game with a 60fps mode.

Rockstar have never released a new GTA game that ran at 60fps, and I don;t expect that to change this time either.

 

[davis.anthony]

Besides GTA VI is console exclusive for a long time so developers will design a 60fps mode. We have seen PS5 runs Marvel Spider Man 2 at 70+ fps with a dense open world.

Spiderman 2's world requires less simulation and physics calculations on the CPU side than even GTA 4.

 

[RDGoodla]

Spiderman 2's world requires less simulation and physics calculations on the CPU side than even GTA 4.

I mean developers will design a less CPU demanding game for consoles running at 60fps.

 

[davis.anthony]

I mean developers will design a less CPU demanding game for consoles running at 60fps.

But Spiderman 2 is barely an open world ( I personally wouldn't class it as an open world game myself)

A proper, open world game like GTA is all about the simulation of that world, and I can't see Rockstar ever looking at reducing that simulation quality just to hit 60fps on a console.

 

[rntongo]

Rockstar have never released a new GTA game that ran at 60fps, and I don;t expect that to change this time either.

Yup its going to be 4K 30 fps. But with the PS5 pro it could hit 4K 60 fps with the hw accelerated upscaling from a lower resolution. People wouldnt tell the difference from native.

 

[davis.anthony]

Yup its going to be 4K 30 fps. But with the PS5 pro it could hit 4K 60 fps with the hw accelerated upscaling from a lower resolution. People wouldnt tell the difference from native.

It won't do that on PS5 Pro because it's not strong enough compared to base PS5 to double the frame rate from both a CPU and GPU point of view.

 

[RobertR1]

Is 40fps irony or just very low standards? Sorry if I’m out of the loop on the joke.

 

[GhostofWar]

Is 40fps irony or just very low standards? Sorry if I’m out of the loop on the joke.

It's real, it's normally 40hz through a 120hz container.

 

[rntongo]

It won't do that on PS5 Pro because it's not strong enough compared to base PS5 to double the frame rate from both a CPU and GPU point of view.

Its too early to be sure about that. If the hardware acceleration for upscaling is good enough then its possible. The specs are impressive. Issue is a lot of people want x figure on the spec sheet, but the engineers look at what the goal is and feedback from developers as well as statistical and empirical data from their own research. When a consumer sees 576GB/s memory bandwidth they may think its just an arbitrary figure but this is what Sony expects will be enough to support the added workloads from say RT. When the consumer sees just 3.85 GHz CPU clock speed they assume Sony hasn't considered what the end goal will be. The GPU upgrade is noteworthy, the hw acceleration for their custom upscaling technology as well. The CPU is possibly the biggest let down but lets wait and see the final clockspeed considering the figure is between 3.8 to 4.4GHz. I just dont see how such a machine would fail to upscale to 4K 60 for GTA 6 if its designed around a 4K 30 target on the base PS5

 

[Frenetic Pony]

Its too early to be sure about that. If the hardware acceleration for upscaling is good enough then its possible. The specs are impressive. Issue is a lot of people want x figure on the spec sheet, but the engineers look at what the goal is and feedback from developers as well as statistical and empirical data from their own research. When a consumer sees 576GB/s memory bandwidth they may think its just an arbitrary figure but this is what Sony expects will be enough to support the added workloads from say RT. When the consumer sees just 3.85 GHz CPU clock speed they assume Sony hasn't considered what the end goal will be. The GPU upgrade is noteworthy, the hw acceleration for their custom upscaling technology as well. The CPU is possibly the biggest let down but lets wait and see the final clockspeed considering the figure is between 3.8 to 4.4GHz. I just dont see how such a machine would fail to upscale to 4K 60 for GTA 6 if its designed around a 4K 30 target on the base PS5

GPU can be done with the given resources, depending on how heavy raytracing is. 67% more CU's, 2.7ghz would get it to an easy doubling of compute resources, all ably handled by a 64mb LLC for bandwidth, and RT is faster still. I expect we'll see the 4k modes for GoW Ragnarok and Spiderman 2 upgraded to 60fps, probably Forbidden West too.

We won't see 60fps on Dragon's Dogma 2 or GTA VI, I don't expect them to overcome the image quality issues of upscaling 30 to 60 well enough (though I'd love to be proven wrong). But we could see other stuff. Dragon's Dogma 2 and FFVII Rebirth have raytracing not far out of reach, raytracing upgrades wouldn't be surprising.

 

[davis.anthony]

Its too early to be sure about that. If the hardware acceleration for upscaling is good enough then its possible. The specs are impressive. Issue is a lot of people want x figure on the spec sheet, but the engineers look at what the goal is and feedback from developers as well as statistical and empirical data from their own research. When a consumer sees 576GB/s memory bandwidth they may think its just an arbitrary figure but this is what Sony expects will be enough to support the added workloads from say RT. When the consumer sees just 3.85 GHz CPU clock speed they assume Sony hasn't considered what the end goal will be. The GPU upgrade is noteworthy, the hw acceleration for their custom upscaling technology as well. The CPU is possibly the biggest let down but lets wait and see the final clockspeed considering the figure is between 3.8 to 4.4GHz. I just dont see how such a machine would fail to upscale to 4K 60 for GTA 6 if its designed around a 4K 30 target on the base PS5

It's not too early and is very easy to make a judgement.

The upgrade in CPU is nothing, and unless Rockstar have designed GTA6 to be a 60fps game from day one (highly doubtful), you're not getting 60fps in GTA6 from a CPU point of view on PS5 Pro. Rockstar have never released a new GTA game that's 60fps, they have all been 30fps and I seriously doubt they will break that tradition with GTA6.

From the GPU side, if base PS5 is 30fps and upscaling from 1080p or lower, you're not getting 60fps in PS5 Pro as the GPU upgrade isn't strong enough. If base PS5 upscaling from 1440p or so at 30fps then PS5 Pro should be able to manage 60fps from the GPU side. But the lower the resolution base PS5 renders at the less and less likely it becomes that PS5 Pro will do 60fps from the GPU. And it still also depends if the CPU is good enough for 60fps.

As an upgrade, PS5 Pro is well below the improvement we got from PS4 Pro, especially on the GPU side.

PS4 Pro vs PS4

CPU = 1.3x faster
GPU = 2.3x faster
Memory Bandwidth = 24% increase

PS5 Pro vs PS5

CPU = 1.1x faster
GPU = 1.45x faster
Memory Bandwidth = 28% increase

PS5 Pro is interesting from an architectural point of view in regard to ray tracing, but other than that the specs are nothing special and well below the upgrade PS4 Pro gave over base PS4.

 

[Henry swagger]

It's not too early and is very easy to make a judgement.

The upgrade in CPU is nothing, and unless Rockstar have designed GTA6 to be a 60fps game from day one (highly doubtful), you're not getting 60fps in GTA6 from a CPU point of view on PS5 Pro. Rockstar have never released a new GTA game that's 60fps, they have all been 30fps and I seriously doubt they will break that tradition with GTA6.

From the GPU side, if base PS5 is 30fps and upscaling from 1080p or lower, you're not getting 60fps in PS5 Pro as the GPU upgrade isn't strong enough. If base PS5 upscaling from 1440p or so at 30fps then PS5 Pro should be able to manage 60fps from the GPU side. But the lower the resolution base PS5 renders at the less and less likely it becomes that PS5 Pro will do 60fps from the GPU. And it still also depends if the CPU is good enough for 60fps.

As a upgrade, PS5 Pro is well below the improvement we got from PS4 Pro, especially on the GPU side.

PS4 Pro vs PS4

CPU = 1.3x faster
GPU = 2.3x faster
Memory Bandwidth = 24% increase

PS5 Pro vs PS5

CPU = 1.1x faster
GPU = 1.45x faster
Memory Bandwidth = 28% increase

PS5 Pro is interesting from an architectural point of view in regard to ray tracing, but other than the the specs are boring and well below the upgrade PS4 Pro gave over base PS4.

Pssr is the trump card.. cerny designed tensor cores for his rt

 

[davis.anthony]

Pssr is the trump card.. cerny designed tensor cores for his rt

No it isn't, it's just upscaling.

PS5 has upscaling.

 

[Nesh]

No it isn't, it's just upscaling.

PS5 has upscaling.

Hopefully it is do something more than simple upscaling, an advanced AI image reconstruction that opens up performance would be great.

 

[davis.anthony]

Hopefully it is do something more than simple upscaling, an advanced AI image reconstruction that opens up performance would be great.

But as I highlighted in the other thread.

Moving to ML based upscaling does basically nothing in terms of extra performance.

It only improves image quality.

There's the potential to see frame generation based on FSR3's algorithm, but using ML input frames via PSSR, but none of that is confirmed.

 

[Globalisateur]

But as I highlighted in the other thread.

Moving to ML based upscaling does basically nothing in terms of extra performance.

It only improves image quality.

There's the potential to see frame generation based on FSR3's algorithm, but using ML input frames via PSSR, but none of that is confirmed.

You don't seem (want?) to understand. We see this with DLSS in some games with 4K DLSS looking as good as native albeit with much less rendering time from the GPU. In the end you get a similar image as native with much less rendering time: You indirectly get extra performance.

FSR is not that at all. You spend 2ms on a frame and you don't get an overall improvement. Players don't say FSR is like "magic". Many see it's sharper when in stills but adds tons of artefacts, ghosting and ugliness (notably in motion) to the final frames.

Years of DLSS (and how Nvidia improved it) showed that AI upscaling is the future and Cerny clearly understood this as they seem to go full in.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You don't seem (want?) to understand. We see this with DLSS in some games with 4K DLSS looking as good as native albeit with much less rendering time from the GPU. In the end you get a similar image as native with much less rendering time: You indirectly get extra performance.

davis.anthony is talking about framerate performance, not rendering 'performance'. Games currently render at sub-native res and upscale not great. ML upscaling will render at sub-native and upscale better. Either form of upscaling is fast and not a limiting factor. For ML upscaling to unlock rendering performance (which doesn't help any with CPU limited scenarios), you'd have to render at an even lower resolution than you were before.

To get more FPS from PSSR, either it'll need to be able to upscale from lower res to the same quality as the alternative method, or inject frames. But as PS5 games are already upscaled with fast techniques, a simple swap of one upscaler for another nets no more FPS.

That said, the flip side here is 'Quality mode' - games rendering higher res, not upscaling much, and only hitting 30 fps. PSSR will (hopefully) be able to render the Quality Mode visuals at a a lower resolution, upscale to the same quality, and so reduce render time by reducing render res and improve framerate.

For Performance Mode games, there's likely no performance to be gained as davis.anthony suggests, but in Quality Mode there is a potential doubling of framerate. Which then leads to the point of Performance and Quality? Will Pro use PS5 Quality for its Performance mode and then be able to up the bells and whistles for a next tier Quality mode at 30fps?

 

[davis.anthony]

You don't seem (want?) to understand. We see this with DLSS in some games with 4K DLSS looking as good as native albeit with much less rendering time from the GPU. In the end you get a similar image as native with much less rendering time: You indirectly get extra performance.

FSR is not that at all. You spend 2ms on a frame and you don't get an overall improvement. Players don't say FSR is like "magic". Many see it's sharper when in stills but adds tons of artefacts, ghosting and ugliness (notably in motion) to the final frames.

Years of DLSS (and how Nvidia improved it) showed that AI upscaling is the future and Cerny clearly understood this as they seem to go full in.

It's not base PS5 at native resolution vs PS5 Pro with PSSR

It's base PS5 with FSR/TSR/CB vs PS5 Pro with PSSR

I made a post in another thread showing that moving from compute based upscaling (FSR2) to ML based (DLSS) had no difference in performance when the quality settings were matched. DLSS only offered better image quality, not performance.

If base PS5 is upscaling from 1080p to 4k using FSR.

And PS5 Pro is upscaling from 1080p to 4k using PSSR

There will be no performance advantage, only an image quality one.

This has been evident and visible on PC for years now.

The issue that PS5 Pro has, is that base PS5 has already started to upscale from native resolutions below 1080p.

People need to stop thinking that PSSR is some secret sauce that's going to give PS5 Pro some massive performance advantage.