Sony PlayStation 5 Pro

[rntongo]

The point is, can PS5 Pro hit 60fps with a 4k target using PSSR if base PS5 is 900p at 30fps?

The answer is no.



If base PS5 is upscaled 4k30, you won't get upscaled 40k60 on PS5 Pro.

If PS5 is native 4k30, then yes you will get upscaled 4k60 on PS5 Pro as there's enough headroom.

The 45% increase in GPU performance is not enough by itself to go from 30fps to 60fps.

Something else has to give to make up the required overhead to get to 60fps.

Which goes back to my point, Cerny has done his homework. Its most likely the CPU+ GPU upgrades plus the hw acceleration are whats goint to enable this. I dont think Sony's hw engineers would upgrade the CPU without taking into account statistical and empirical data from past CPU calls on the base PS5. They're aiming for a target of 4K 60 upscaled using PSSR and the CPU,GPU and memory upgrades are designed around this goal(looking at the specs I'm impressed). This target has been confirmed by Tom Henderson. In addition there are rumours that devs have managed to get Jedi Survivor to run at 4K 120 on the PS5 pro devkit!!! I think Sony has done a decent job and will be vindicated when the results come out.

 

[davis.anthony]

Which goes back to my point, Cerny has done his homework.

Cerny can do all the homework work he wants, he can only do what the build cost allows him to do.

Its most likely the CPU+ GPU upgrades plus the hw acceleration are whats goint to enable this.

In certain games, under certain conditions yes.

I dont think Sony's hw engineers would upgrade the CPU without taking into account statistical and empirical data from past CPU calls on the base PS5.

I wouldn't called a 10% clock speed uplift and upgrade.

They're aiming for a target of 4K 60 upscaled using PSSR and the CPU,GPU and memory upgrades are designed around this goal(looking at the specs I'm impressed).

Which they will achieve in certain games, under certain conditions.

This target has been confirmed by Tom Henderson.

No one's disputing their target.

In addition there are rumours that devs have managed to get Jedi Survivor to run at 4K 120 on the PS5 pro devkit!!!

I've not seen that.

I think Sony has done a decent job and will be vindicated when the results come out.

They've done what they can with what they could afford.

 

[rntongo]

If the game is CPU limited to below 60fps on base PS5, then no amount of extra GPU performance will get it to run at 60fps.

They can drop the resolution as much as they want on PS5 Pro, but if the CPU can only manage 40fps, then 40fps is all you'll ever get.

As long as those games are not CPU limited on base PS5.

What example games are these and what CPU core count, clock speed, etc changes would be required for the PS5 pro to hit the 60 fps target in your opinion? Genuinely asking! The spec bump in the CPU seems reasonable to me but again it would require deeper analysis. Surely the PS5 doesnt need a 16 core Zen 4 clocked at above 4.5GHz. A higher clocked 8 core Zen 2 or Zen 3 CPU would suffice, which is what Sony's comptent engineers are doing according to the leaks. You can present yours as well and we compare

If the game is CPU limited to below 60fps on base PS5, then no amount of extra GPU performance will get it to run at 60fps.


I'm assuming you have evidence to back up that blanket statement?

Yes I do, go to youtube and look at the comparison videos yourself. As well its been echoed by DF, Moore's Law is Dead and others.

When you say 4k? You are aware that very, very few PS5 games are native 4k right?

Nearly all of them are upscaled 4k from lower resolutions.

And the lower the resolution they're upscaled from on base PS5, the less of a chance they'll have at hitting 60fps on PS5 Pro as the head room won't be there.

I do and you're missing the point, it doesnt matter if its 4K 60 native. It only matters that its 4K 60 upscaled and looks just as good as native. Which is the whole reason why tech companies are investing in hw acceleration for upscaling. Because it looks just as good and sometimes even better than native. Also the reason why almost all 4K PS5 games are 4K 30 upscaled

 

[function]

Does the PS5 Pro still only have half width/rate AVX and SSE units?

Maybe that could further limit PS5Pro's ability to move up to 60 fps "native" (none frame gen) in games doing a lot of simulation heavy stuff or games with lots of dynamic geometry to test against for RT.

 

[chris1515]

I have had some great calls this gen, like saying back in 2021 that we were 100% going to get a PS5 pro. For one, I never said GTA 6 would be designed with a 4K 60 target. They have designed the game around 16GB of unified memory for 4K 30 fps target on the base consoles. With the pro, they will use PSSR to target 4K 60 fps(this endeavor is a fact) although its plausible it may not work out, they will put effort in hitting this target on the PS5 pro.

Also there is one thing missing in your arithmetic comparing last gen to this gen. Sony was able to hit the 4K target on the PS4 pro using upscaling algorithms. Consumers couldnt tell between native and upscaled 4K. The same will be true for the PS5 pro. In empirical analysis the pro will be able to deliver 4K games(including GTA 6) at higher frame rates than the base PS5. It will be up to the DFs to find faults here and there but it wont matter empirically. The pro will have higher frame rate gaming at 4K both statistically and empirically, and last I checked the base PS5 isnt running games below 4K 30 and the pro console will be expected to run those base PS5 games at frame rates higher than 30 fps at 4K.

GTA6 is 1440p 30 fps on PS5 probably.

 

[rntongo]

GTA6 is 1440p 30 fps on PS5 probably.

I see, my guess is 4K 30 on base PS5 and 4K 60 on PS5 pro. PS5 pro launching at $499-$549 without a disc drive.

 

[QPlayer]

Until now, Frame Generation was recommended by the creators from 60 FPS, and that's how it became 90-120 FPS. Everyone here is talking about a 30 FPS increase. Will PS5pro be able to upscale from 30FPS to 60FPS?

 

[Charlietus]

Honestly, a performance mode for GTA 6 on the pro doesn't really need to be a locked 60. Assuming a CPU limited frame rate, the load will vary depending on where you are, and to get a locked 30 fps you need something like 35-40 fps at a minimum. So a 40 fps mode for the pro at maximum CPU clock speed is totally possible, with some drops beneath.

Unlocking the frame rate completely is another option, and the reduced input lag would probably be worth it.

 

[QPlayer]

Maybe it can do 60 out of 40 FPS.

 

[rntongo]

Quite surprised though that its CPU is only going to be at 3.85GHz, there were other rumours it was going to hit the max clock speed for Zen 2 somewhere around 4.4GHz.

 

[fellix]

Does the PS5 Pro still only have half width/rate AVX and SSE units?

Was this ever proven? The shrunk SIMD logic was more likely area layout optimization, similar to what was employed for Zen 4c.

 

[function]

Was this ever proven? The shrunk SIMD logic was more likely area layout optimization, similar to what was employed for Zen 4c.

I believe it was proven - benches of the CPU component of the PS5 clearly showed half rate AVX and SSE. The die shots showed physically reduced number of repeating elements on the vector units too, and that Locuza dude interpreted it as cut down FP pipes, from 256-bit to 128-bit, while another chip-peeper identified missing Zen 2 FPU parts.

Vector units are the most power hungry element of the CPU core, my guess is it was related to power management and simplifying the process of allocating power between CPU and GPU. If the vector units are incapable of demanding lots more power you can limit the affects of AVX or SSE code in causing sudden GPU downclocks, and be less conservative with power reserved for the CPU.

 

[Boss]

As i posted in the other thread, there's like 2-5 ps5 games that don't have a 60fps mode? How did we arrive at this cpu limit's narrative that's like a figment of our imagination? The list is here

 

[babybumb]

If base PS5 is upscaled 4k30, you won't get upscaled 40k60 on PS5 Pro.

If base PS5 is native 4k30, then yes you will get upscaled 4k60 on PS5 Pro as there's enough headroom.

The 45% increase in GPU performance is not enough by itself to go from 30fps to 60fps.

Something else has to give to make up the required overhead to get to 60fps.

Titlas that are locked to 30fps due to GPU have way more headroom. They could be anywhere from 30-60fps.. 45% will be eough for VRR range if not flat 60fps. If they render above 1080p you could even drop the resolution to gain more perf without image quality hit thanks to better scaling.

Alan Wake 2 would easily hit 1080p@60fps and scaled using PSSR to 4k will look much better than 847p to 1440p FSR2

 

[davis.anthony]

Titlas that are locked to 30fps due to GPU have way more headroom.

No, they potentially have more head room.

 

[davis.anthony]

Until now, Frame Generation was recommended by the creators from 60 FPS, and that's how it became 90-120 FPS. Everyone here is talking about a 30 FPS increase. Will PS5pro be able to upscale from 30FPS to 60FPS?

That was more of an FSR thing to be honest.

DLSS frame gen can actually feel quite good (depending on the game) when using below 60fps.

In fact, the only game where DLSS frame gen feels positively shit when used below 60fps is Portal RTX.

 

[davis.anthony]

As i posted in the other thread, there's like 2-5 ps5 games that don't have a 60fps mode? How did we arrive at this cpu limit's narrative that's like a figment of our imagination? The list is here

The amount of PS5 games that are truly 60fps I can count on my fingers and toes.

A 60fps mode that runs in the 45-55fps range is a not a 60fps game, only a 30fps one with an unlocked frame rate.

And if a game can't hold a locked 60fps, it's not always because of the GPU.

 

[gamervivek]

Which goes back to my point, Cerny has done his homework. Its most likely the CPU+ GPU upgrades plus the hw acceleration are whats goint to enable this. I dont think Sony's hw engineers would upgrade the CPU without taking into account statistical and empirical data from past CPU calls on the base PS5. They're aiming for a target of 4K 60 upscaled using PSSR and the CPU,GPU and memory upgrades are designed around this goal(looking at the specs I'm impressed). This target has been confirmed by Tom Henderson. In addition there are rumours that devs have managed to get Jedi Survivor to run at 4K 120 on the PS5 pro devkit!!! I think Sony has done a decent job and will be vindicated when the results come out.

Jedi survivor 4k120 is just fantastic

Star Wars: Jedi Survivor [PS5, XBSX|S, PC]

Console vs PC comparison in this game is interesting. At native 1440p max RT settings, a 2070 Super delivers a locked 30fps most of the time, which is significantly more than PS5, and the PC is using higher settings, higher resolution, and is plagued by CPU bottlenecks when using RT. At native...

forum.beyond3d.com

 

[rntongo]

For anyone curious, Here:

I can mention that they've been doing testing with the dev kits on the ps5 pro - like I said, I dont know any of the specs, nothing like that, they didnt talk about any of that - just the results of them brute forcing their previously released games to see whats possible

So the one they mentioned to me - still in progress, may not be final, they're saying that this DLSS solution that they're using (which is this PSSR) is actually beyond their expectations. This is from EA, this is from developers at EA, Specifically from Respawn. And they did say they did say that they were able to get specifically Jedi Survivor to 4k 120 with absolutely 0 hiccups

So, Now this comes from them, not from me! It's not a "trust me bro", I'm reading it right here. "You can mention Star Wars Jedi Survivor is running at 4k 120" and he says you can mention it on your podcast (laughs) since it's already starting to leak anyway

Cerny did his homework if this is true. But the CPU is actually concerning me if its only clocked at 3.85GHz. But for sure Rockstar games is going to try hitting 4K 60 fps on the pro and 4K 30 fps on the base PS5.

 

[Boss]

The amount of PS5 games that are truly 60fps I can count on my fingers and toes.

A 60fps mode that runs in the 45-55fps range is a not a 60fps game, only a 30fps one with an unlocked frame rate.

And if a game can't hold a locked 60fps, it's not always because of the GPU.

Well I’m not so sure. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim or is it simply anecdotal? I mean, I can name many locked 60 fps games that you have hands and toes. I’ve played these games as well and can confirm its performance.