Sony Gamescom 2013 conference

[Silent_Buddha]

PS4 has a combat flight game, War Thunder, that must count for something!

Not exclusive though, and has been playable for a while now.. But at least it's a console exclusive.

I think that's perhaps the most disappointing thing about the PS4 launch lineup. Quite of few of their launch day games have all been available and playable for months or years. Minecraft, DC Online, Warframe, War Thunder, Blacklight: Retribution, and Planetside 2 off the top of my head.

It's also interesting that the majority of their launch lineup is only available if you have an internet connection (download only). Only 15 titles will be available on physical media.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

Indeed ! But still pretty recent~
Too bad none of them are ported from this year's PS3 games. Would have loved TLoU, Puppeteer and Beyond 2 Souls.

Very curious how all these games will RemotePlay to my Vita.

Quite a few of them are free-to-play too. Would be a pretty economical launch for me if these games are any good.

 

[Airon]

Sony may be saving some games for Japan and their event.

Japan is the motherland of Sony so, without any doubt they will show something Japan related there for the launch of PS4.
I will not expecting anything great for my European taste but I will be happy at least with some other news about The Last Guardian (even if experience told me that cursed games like this one, rarely have lived up the hype).
In short, I fear that TGS will not change my disapointment about Sony exclusive launch lineup of PS4. But I will more than happy to be wrong about it!

Anyway, today, I am far more concerned by the hand-on comments of people at PAX with Killzone multiplayer...
I have to admit that I wasn't already particulary impressed by the original reveal, maybe because of the art style (so Mass Effect, so already seen), and maybe because I have always coupled the Killzone franchise with great graphical showcase on Sony platform...
Now reading the opinions of "normal people" at Pax... What the hell is happening Guerilla?!?

Also, I have read some not so good comments about the new Dual Shock... But clearly, the design of the new controller is more or less the same, and certainly I was not expecting a revolution in this area.

I have to admit that I really begin to think that this time around I want to try with my hand PS4 before giving my money to Sony on dayone, just based on trust and promises. Those times are over for me, Sony I have already done my dirty duty with PS2 & PS3 launch!

 

[KongRudi]

Maybe I have lost something (I was out for vacation!) so please correct me if I am wrong.
The "actual" AAA exclusive launch lineup of PS4 is compose by:

-) Killzone (launch)
-) Infamous (first 6 month ?)
-) Driver Club (launch)
-) Knack (launch)
-) The Order (2014 TBA?)

To me, this is a weak exclusive launch line up.
Maybe it is just my feeling, but for PS4, differently from PS2 & PS3, I have not even the anticipation for future next to be released games, because nothing as been announced yet for PS4! I know there will be Santa Monica e Naughty Dog, but at the moment we have pratically nothing to dream on!

In the 33 games you are citing, you are counting also the multiplat games?
Which are these 8 new AAA IPs? Or you are also counting indie and PSN games?

Considering that:
1) I am not that much into indie games (or the vast majority of PSN games), as I will not going to spend 399 euros just to play indie or PSN games that I could play somehow on PS3/X360!
2) Knack is not for me... (just to use an euphemism...)
3) I have never bought a racing games (except GT3 on PS2), I will not start with Driver Club...

My disapointment is because 2014 seems to be a very weak year for me as PS4 owner!
And my fear is that Santa Monica e Naughty Dog games are faaar away (end of 2014? 2015?)!

In short I fear the same old Sony platform launch (as it was for PS2 & PS3)... That is why I am disappointed!

Infamous is coming in Februar, according to most people.
I think that's a good idea, no point in having that come out at the same day as AC:4 and Watchdogs, since there are alot of overlap between that fanbase of third person open-world games, since it's good to spend time on that type of game.

I'm pretty certain The order is a first half 2014 title.
Both Killzone, DriveClub are day one AAA-exclusive.

Knack is probably a AA-game, Planetside 2 are also AAA-release, but that's been out on PC for a while, but 1000 players FPS hasn't been done on consoles before, I think.
DC:Universe also get's a PS4-port.
That's the big 'launch-window' titles we know about from Sony.

They probably revealed 15 new indie games - wich is pretty great, especially concidering they allmost had as many at E3, and there were basically no overlap between the shows.

They're casting a wide net, for these games.. It's accessible at low budget, and many games.
At E3, they showed Octodad and Transistor, etc. on Gamescom they showed Hotline Miami 2, Volume, Velocity 2x, Binding of Isach: Rebirth, etc. Sure more people might be excited for a new Killzone, than Transistor, but you're not gonna get 15 new announcements of Killzone-like games at these events.

Shadow of The Beast were a welcome announcement, I hope they dig into more Psygnosis oldies, a game like Hired Guns, wich also is a old Psygnosis IP wich Sony owns, would be fantastic.
Hired Guns were DMA Designs sci/fi cyberpunk RPG, wich could be played in 4-player coop. I think that were one of their best games - even tough Lemmings and Grand Theft Auto are what made them known, HG were just as fun.

Also, Japan launch-date, and those titles aimed mainly at that market, is still unknown.
I think Capcom confirmed that Deep Down will be shown playable on TGS.
Other than that, it's pretty much a mystery what Sony and the various Japaneese publishers aims at Japan-launch, and that's pretty exciting.

 

[Airon]

Infamous is coming in Februar, according to most people.
I think that's a good idea, no point in having that come out at the same day as AC:4 and Watchdogs, since there are alot of overlap between that fanbase of third person open-world games, since it's good to spend time on that type of game.

I'm pretty certain The order is a first half 2014 title.
Both Killzone, DriveClub are day one AAA-exclusive.

Knack is probably a AA-game, Planetside 2 are also AAA-release, but that's been out on PC for a while, but 1000 players FPS hasn't been done on consoles before, I think.
DC:Universe also get's a PS4-port.
That's the big 'launch-window' titles we know about from Sony.

They probably revealed 15 new indie games - wich is pretty great, especially concidering they allmost had as many at E3, and there were basically no overlap between the shows.

They're casting a wide net, for these games.. It's accessible at low budget, and many games.
At E3, they showed Octodad and Transistor, etc. on Gamescom they showed Hotline Miami 2, Volume, Velocity 2x, Binding of Isach: Rebirth, etc. Sure more people might be excited for a new Killzone, than Transistor, but you're not gonna get 15 new announcements of Killzone-like games at these events.

Shadow of The Beast were a welcome announcement, I hope they dig into more Psygnosis oldies, a game like Hired Guns, wich also is a old Psygnosis IP wich Sony owns, would be fantastic.
Hired Guns were DMA Designs sci/fi cyberpunk RPG, wich could be played in 4-player coop. I think that were one of their best games - even tough Lemmings and Grand Theft Auto are what made them known, HG were just as fun.

Also, Japan launch-date, and those titles aimed mainly at that market, is still unknown.
I think Capcom confirmed that Deep Down will be shown playable on TGS.
Other than that, it's pretty much a mystery what Sony and the various Japaneese publishers aims at Japan-launch, and that's pretty exciting.

As I have said, I really do not want to transform this topic in a personal Q&A session about my feelings & disappointment about PS4 exclusive launch lineup.

Anyway, with your post you do not help my fears...

1) Knack, well, I really do not want to express my feeling about it, just as a form of respect to Cerny...

2) Driver Club...Last time I have bought a racing game was more then 10 years ago, and I have to be really game-starved to spend 60 and more euro just for a bland arcade racing game...

3) Killzone... Hard time here, I have express my feeling in the previous post...

4) Planetside 2 & DC... I will not certainly buy a new PS4 to play these 2 "old" game , would you?

5) 15 Indie titles, again I have said it many time yet... I will not spend 399 euro for a new consolle just to play indie games that in a way or another could be played also on PS3/X360!

6) Shadow of The Best... When I have read the announcement I have really jumped on my chair.. SotB was one of the defining games of my youth, an Amiga masterpiece that I have deeply adored (well it was a bit to hard to play but...). After I have seen the trailer... What the hell are they doing? Have they seen at least once the original game? Everything felt wrong, the art, the mood, the athmosphere.. Who the hell is the director of this game?
Have you seen how horrible and completely different the main character looks compared to the original one? I really do not want to talk about SotB at the moment...

7) From Japan, I just want some TLG info (My last JRPG was 5 years ago!).

So, 2013-2014 exclusive AAA PS4 line up FOR ME is limited, at the moment, to Infamous and The Order (maybe if it will be 2014...).
In my eyes (today feeling) this is enough to justfy the purchase of the PS4 on day one (or first year)? Short answer: NO!

I am rather disappointed and doubtfull at the moment, but it is just a personal feeling because I am not sentimentally involved in Sony (or Microsoft or Nintendo): for my money I am expeting GAMEs!
Clearly something is going wrong because, as never, I really feel the lack of AAA exclusive games and new AAA IPs on the new Sony machine .

 

[JPT]

I bought PS360 at launch last time and I thought it sucked bad for both consoles. Took a long while before something worth playing showed up. Most of the launch stuff was prettier gfx of some game already existing, imo.

 

[Nesh]

Thats because in all honesty the only big exclusives announced so far are Killzone, The Order, Infamous, Drive Club, and Knack. Knack is not impressive and Drive Club has been a mixed bag so far.
Most of the indie games announced are smaller projects, not the type of games you would buy a PS4 for. Such small projects were never taking such a coverage in the past. Now they do because they are selling the idea of "indie game support" and the PSN support

The majority of the third party games are the the "I have seen it before" type that lack the next generational punch we used to see from past generational transitions.

The f2p games are good, but nothing mindblowing. Its like watching at existing PC games seeing a port to the PS4.

When the PS3 was announced in 2005, (even though through smoke and mirrors in some of the examples) they showed us the return of Warhawk, Killzone, Gran Turismo, The Getaway (unreleased), Motorstorm, Eyedentity (unreleased), Killing Day (unreleased), Heavenly Sword, Eight Days (unreleased), Fifth Phantom Saga (unreleased), Gandam (which was crap eventually), an F1 game, Unreal Tournament, Final Night,a new exclusive Final Fantasy game ( they crapped our pants with a FF7 tech demo that looked amazing), Ni Oh (unreleased), a Cowboy game from Rockstar (I cant remember which one that was) and Tekken.
At TGS we saw DMC (was announced exclusive at the time), MGS4, Final Fantasy 13 and Versus 13 (announced exclusives), Resident Evil 5 (suspected to be exclusive), Genji 2 and Eye of Judgement on top of the previous mindblowing announcements.
I cant remember when they also showed Uncharted for the first time which was also mindblowing.
They showed a bucket load of stuff to look forward to, of which most were expected to be exclusives and almost all looked mighty impressive and like nothing we have seen before.
I went back watching the 2005 Sony conference to refresh my mind and damn did it have a punch. It was a very powerful presentation. Its probably Sony's biggest and most powerful presentation ever. It had huge content with one impressive demonstration and announcement coming after the next
Its hard to deny that PS4 announcements were somewhat modest compared to the PS3's.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Well, yeah. They're trying to avoid all the mistakes they made when they announced the PS3. Like the half dozen games they announced that never came out. Or the half dozen CGI trailers they told people were representative of gameplay that most certainly were not. Or games like Star Ocean they announced for PS3 that ended up coming out at as 360 exclusives. Frankly being mad that they haven't given us an outline of all their planned releases for the first 3 years is petty and stupid. I'm not worried about the fact that Naughty Dog, Santa Monica and Media Molecule haven't announced yet. Nor am I worried that no one has announced the 2014 versions of Call of Duty, Madden or Assassin's Creed. I know they're being worked on.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I went back watching the 2005 Sony conference to refresh my mind and damn did it have a punch. It was a very powerful presentation. Its probably Sony's biggest and most powerful presentation ever. It had huge content with one impressive demonstration and announcement coming after the next
Its hard to deny that PS4 announcements were somewhat modest compared to the PS3's.

Much of the punch came from the visuals. We moved from PS2's SDTV resolution with basic models to PS3's HDTV resolution with decent models. Polygonal hands grew fingers. Octagonal wheels became circles. Lightning and shadows got real. Although the graphical performance leap from PS3 to PS4 is close to the leap between PS2 to PS3, the improvements in resolution and polygonal counts aren't so pronounced unless you look closely. If you're watching a low-bitrate sub-1080p live stream, a lot of this is lost in encoding.

As you demonstrated Sony showed a lot of things they never delivered. Perhaps this time they're only showing things where they have a solid release window. I think The Division is the furthest off game I've seen, Christmas 2014.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Airon wasn't saying he was worried, or other people should be worried. (S)he was saying (s)he saw little interest in buying a PS4 at launch due to a lack of exclusives (principally because (s)he'll be playing the cross-platform titles on PC).

 

[KongRudi]

Sony's biggest franchise Gran Turisimo 6 were officially announced in May this year, at a racing event in UK, during GT's 15th birthday, and the game comes out allready in december.
That's 7 months from the official announcement trailer (at no big game-event) to release-date. :-/
So if Sony can do that with as big a title as GT, it's safe to assume they can do it with other stuff aswell.
I'm pretty certain Sony plans to release big games in Q3/Q4 in 2014, even tough we don't know about any yet, no matter how worried Airon is.

Perhaps this time they're only showing things where they have a solid release window. I think The Division is the furthest off game I've seen, Christmas 2014.

That Cyberpunk 2077 wich The Witcher-devs, CD Project RED, announced back in 2012, is set to release 2015 or later, on PS4, XBOne and PC.

Sony were bad with announcing games way too early in the start of this generation.
After they started thinking of SCEJ, SCEE, and SCEA as one under SCEWWS, it's gotten alot better the last few years.

i.e. the stuff new IP's they announced at Gamescom last year, comes out about these times, Rain (next month) and Puppetteer (next week) is out soon aswell.

Beyond showed gameplay to the public for the first time last year at Gamescom, but that had a trailer before, it's soon out and The Last of Us, had a trailer at Spike VGA, then showed gameplay at E3 and released it right before next E3, I think.

So those games had trare a few months before it were shown gameplay, and release allmost a year after.

I much rather prefer the way they seem to do it now, let other devs like Gaijiin Entertainment (with War Thunder) and a dozen indie devs showcase their stuff, instead of showing the progress of only the biggest games over more than one E3's, forinstance.

On Xbox One, I think we'll see stuff like Halo again at next E3, and I assume Respawn will push Titanfall's release from Q2 2014, into fall.
And both Project Spark and Fable: Legends have beta's starting for Xbox One in 2014, so I guess maybe those are likely candidates for a rerun next year aswell.

Personally, I want to see the stuff I can get my hands on asap showcased at these events. I don't need to see it over several events before.

 

[baten]

All this is bull....

I remember the old saying that "If you build it, they will come..."

Of course you will buy the PS4 or the Xbone without al lot of games to really like. That has allways been the case when a new console launches.

The reason to buy a new console is not the games. The games will follow.

I have preordered the PS4 not because I have a certaing game that I "need" to play, but for the console itself.

From the current lineup I really dont care for any of the games that have been anounced.

Most probably I will get Watch Dogs, since I really have a feeling that all the other will be available for free on PSPLUS later on...

 

[Shortbread]

Sony factories 'running flat out' to meet PS4 demand

http://www.videogamer.com/news/sony_factories_running_flat_out_to_meet_ps4_demand.html

Sony’s factories are “going to be running flat out” to manufacture enough PlayStation 4 hardware to meet demand, Sony Europe boss Jim Ryan has said.

Sony has already secured over one million pre-orders for PS4 – a figure it could struggle to fulfil for launch day.

The platform holder has previously notified customers that any orders placed after August 5 may not be delivered in time for launch day, but additional stock may become available as it finalises allocation.

Like I stated a million times during this thread, the PS4 preorder numbers are out the roof. Sony will allow preorders to be placed "regardless of supply", and fulfill those orders during multiple allocations. Just today on the XM Radio station (R&B), the station personalities were talking about what consoles they wanted next... they all said PS4. One commented saying; the didn't want their grandpas VCR recording them.

 

[patsu]

Airon wasn't saying he was worried, or other people should be worried. (S)he was saying (s)he saw little interest in buying a PS4 at launch due to a lack of exclusives (principally because (s)he'll be playing the cross-platform titles on PC).

Yeap, if he's unsure, the right decision for him would be to wait it out. ^_^
No harm done !

 

[patsu]

http://www.videogamer.com/news/sony_factories_running_flat_out_to_meet_ps4_demand.html





Like I stated a million times during this thread, the PS4 preorder numbers are out the roof. Sony will allow preorders to be placed "regardless of supply", and fulfill those orders during multiple allocations. Just today on the XM Radio station (R&B), the station personalities were talking about what consoles they wanted next... they all said PS4. One commented saying; the didn't want their grandpas VCR recording them.

People may still hesitate before they shell out their money. So Sony will have to sustain their interest all the way until end of the year, and beyond. Just like in the PS3 (and Vita) days. It's really no different since this time, they will also have to fend off inevitable entry from Amazon, Google, and to a certain extent, may be Apple.

At the moment, it looks like they are busy trying to fill the launch retail shelves worldwide. So the initial "demand" is pretty much guaranteed during this short period.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

People may still hesitate before they shell out their money. So Sony will have to sustain their interest all the way until end of the year, and beyond. Just like in the PS3 (and Vita) days. It's really no different since this time, they will also have to fend off inevitable entry from Amazon, Google, and to a certain extent, may be Apple.

Right, and some people may have pre-ordered in more than one place. I pre-ordered with Amazon and GAME. Whoever confirms 29 November delivery first gets my money, the other gets cancelled.

 

[patsu]

Yes IMHO, in a very real sense, this upcoming gen will be a tougher fight than the PS3 gen for Sony -- despite a well-executed _and_ fortuitous good start.

EDIT:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013...-playstation-via-third-party-production-team/

Moments ago, Adam Boyes introduced the latest addition to the Third Party Relations family at Playstation, a new group that I get to captain called Third Party Production. The Third Party Relations team at PlayStation is well known for developing solid relationships across this industry, and this new group will work closely with our publishing partners to bring their beloved IPs to some new places. This means you’ll see even more great games on PlayStation platforms, including new IP’s, ports, and localized products. In addition, our partners who are currently in production will have us as a resource to strengthen their development process, ensuring quality and consistency on all Third Party projects.

I’m really excited for our team to explore new opportunities on behalf of PlayStation. Even though we’re brand new to PlayStation, we’ve got years of experience in this industry already under our belt. We already have a project underway, the recently announced PS Vita version of Borderlands 2. We are extremely excited to work with Iron Galaxy Studios on this project and I cannot wait to show and tell you more down the road.

I will share more with you as our adventures continue and new games are made available. In the meantime, let me know in the comments what you want to see on PlayStation (PS3, PS4, PS Vita). Or contact me on Twitter through the ingenious and mesmerizing handle of @giocorsi — original I know, but man is it solid.

EDIT 2:
Wait a second, I can finally submit my Race Queens in Gran Turismo request to some official Sony dudes.

 

[MrFox]

Airon, opinions about games are personal tastes. What they announce at E3 and Gamescom (and TGS next) is just the beginning, not everything, and they want to spread the releases as evenly as possible over many many years. Why focus on day one?

I do disagree with the way you described it:
Fear.
Disappointed.
Weak.
Nightmares.
Bland.
Wrong.
Horrible.
Concerned.
Mediocre.
Disappointment.

You should skip the PS4 if you feel that way, nobody can argue about how you feel. Maybe you should not buy a console at launch if you're having nightmares about launch line ups.

Personally, the AAA exclusive I want the most at launch is Knack, by far. There are more than enough games launching to keep me occupied, but knowing that Naughty Dog, That Game Company, and Quantic Dreams are working on games, it's more than enough to buy the console immediately based on trust, they always delivered. They make masterpieces that have not equivalent anywhere else. The console will be used for the next 10 years, it's a bit crazy to focus on the launch line up as some kind of make-or-break decision point.

About fighters, the devs who made BlazBlue are working on a new PS4 game, and it's also pretty sure Tekken-7 and other Tekken derivative games will be released at some point, the arcade board is rumored to be based on PS4 hardware.

 

[Airon]

Thats because in all honesty the only big exclusives announced so far are Killzone, The Order, Infamous, Drive Club, and Knack. Knack is not impressive and Drive Club has been a mixed bag so far.
Most of the indie games announced are smaller projects, not the type of games you would buy a PS4 for. Such small projects were never taking such a coverage in the past. Now they do because they are selling the idea of "indie game support" and the PSN support

The majority of the third party games are the the "I have seen it before" type that lack the next generational punch we used to see from past generational transitions.

The f2p games are good, but nothing mindblowing. Its like watching at existing PC games seeing a port to the PS4.

When the PS3 was announced in 2005, (even though through smoke and mirrors in some of the examples) they showed us the return of Warhawk, Killzone, Gran Turismo, The Getaway (unreleased), Motorstorm, Eyedentity (unreleased), Killing Day (unreleased), Heavenly Sword, Eight Days (unreleased), Fifth Phantom Saga (unreleased), Gandam (which was crap eventually), an F1 game, Unreal Tournament, Final Night,a new exclusive Final Fantasy game ( they crapped our pants with a FF7 tech demo that looked amazing), Ni Oh (unreleased), a Cowboy game from Rockstar (I cant remember which one that was) and Tekken.
At TGS we saw DMC (was announced exclusive at the time), MGS4, Final Fantasy 13 and Versus 13 (announced exclusives), Resident Evil 5 (suspected to be exclusive), Genji 2 and Eye of Judgement on top of the previous mindblowing announcements.
I cant remember when they also showed Uncharted for the first time which was also mindblowing.
They showed a bucket load of stuff to look forward to, of which most were expected to be exclusives and almost all looked mighty impressive and like nothing we have seen before.
I went back watching the 2005 Sony conference to refresh my mind and damn did it have a punch. It was a very powerful presentation. Its probably Sony's biggest and most powerful presentation ever. It had huge content with one impressive demonstration and announcement coming after the next
Its hard to deny that PS4 announcements were somewhat modest compared to the PS3's.

This is excatly my point!
This is my exact feeling!

Launch a new console with just 3/4 AAA games and then ... nothing?!?!
This behaviour/strategy could be good or excellent during years 3, 4 etc.., but at launch.. Come on!
To me this is THE WORST launch in Sony history.
You need AAA games on launch windows but you also need something to dream of for the future.
There is clearly something wrong here!
And please do not tell me again about the 15 indie titles or the 2 years old games F2P...

And speaking about future titles:
-) Santa Monica: GoW:As: March 2013 (second or first studio helping with The Order)
-) ND: First Studio TLoU June 2013 ; Second Studio (Uncharted 3...) November 2011;
-) Mediamolecule: Team Buddies ( and maybe one other casual/camere oriented game)
-) Polyphony: GT6 December 2013
-) Guerrilla, Second Studio (working on Vita?, exists?)
-) Japan: Knack, TLG (?)...
-) Quantic Dream: BtS Ocrober 2013.

The next 2-3 year doesn't look so bright in terms of Sony exclusive AAA games!!!
Or people out there are aware of other things that I do not know?

A part for ND second studio (Uncharted 3), I do not see many other things for the next 2 year of PS4!

In my poor opinion, Sony need to put heavy money on 3rd AAA party exlcusives, because I fear that when the first wave of Sony mega fan supportes will end, normal consumers, and gamers will necessary begin to ask about games, exclusive games!!!
A tangible reason to choose PS4 over X1 !

I do not know, I hate to pass as mad, but why people do not complain about what Sony is doing? They are all happy with the chat about Husa or 50% more powerfull vcard?
Or everyone is intoxicated by the NeoGAF pro Sony campain?

Clearly the majority of them are about my same age at the time of my Amiga500, but not all of them!

Do you remeber the launch of PS1, 2 or also 3?
Now, have seen what MS has prepared for the launch?
-) Crytek
-) Remedy
-) Insomniac
-) Titanfall (plat exclusive)
-) New Forza
-) Exclusive Capcom
-) Minor games but fan favorite like Crimson Dragon & KI;
-) A new Fable;
-) Some motion sensing stuff (KS)
-) Fifa free in EU (my country)

This is the start. And then (as Sony) there is the clouded future with much probably:
-) Halo,
-) Crackdown
-) Alan Wake (?)
-) Gear of War (?)
-) PGR (?)
-) Lionhead 2nd (exists?)
-) Rare 2ns (exists?)
-) New studio Ninja games
-) Probably the new Epic IP...

To compete with:
-) GoD
-) Uncharted
-) TLoU
-) GT7

Are you still asking me why I am disappointed with Sony?
Are you still asking me why I am asking games to Sony in exchange of my money?

 

[Betanumerical]

Why are some people so obsessed with AAA games? 99% of the time they seem to be a rehash of the same old boring formula, wouldnt you guys rather less space marines and more variety or are those other games crap because they weren't made with 1000 man teams and a small nations GDP worth of marketing and budget?.