Sony financing about 40 EDI (download) games

Why people doubting this can happen is beyond me.
Freelance game development is not exactly new. The PC has had it for some time now. I don't see how any console's electronic distribution is significantly different than any PC portal's electronic distribution. And what do you see on the PC? Piles and piles of regurgitated, overused game designs and a few exceptional titles.

Now, does that sound like a renaissance or does it sound like what we already have on consoles? A lot of people think that small, downloadable games are somehow intimately or even inexorably tied to innovation, but reality contrasts with that starkly.



50mb just seems way too small...
As has been noted basically every single time someone flames MS for this, XBLA is a threat to brick 'n mortar stores. On principle, they compete with each other. But MS absolutely needs good support from brick 'n mortar stores if they are to meet sales projections. Their solution was to make XBLA as innoffensive to Walmart, EB, etc. as possible. They simply cannot efficiently sell little games, hence the 50 MB guideline (it's not totally a rule, AFAIK). MS limits XBLA to be complementary to regular stores.

If you'll notice, Nintendo and Sony are following this strategy just in different ways. When e-distribution becomes a powerful force, MS's restrictions will drop off. But that's not a battle MS needs to win, so they're playing both sides for the time being.
 
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Freelance game development is not exactly new. The PC has had it for some time now. I don't see how any console's electronic distribution is significantly different than any PC portal's electronic distribution. And what do you see on the PC? Piles and piles of regurgitated, overused game designs and a few exceptional titles.

Now, does that sound like a renaissance or does it sound like what we already have on consoles? A lot of people think that small, downloadable games are somehow intimately or even inexorably tied to innovation, but reality contrasts with that starkly. If you'll notice, Nintendo and Sony are following this strategy just in different ways. When e-distribution becomes a powerful force, MS's restrictions will drop off. But that's not a battle MS needs to win, so they're playing both sides for the time being.

MS and Sony are playing both sides right now and to me imo that's what can make next-gen (yes Wii included) a renaissance that some people were looking for. Never before have we had consoles that could provide really high class AAA titles that blow your mind and small downloadable games that catch on a gain mass appeal.

I love next-gen. :D I hope Ninja Theory makes a EDI title after Heavenly Sword. How about it DeanoC? nAo?
 
Right now it's pretty hard to justify throwing an "AAA Team" on a live or EDI title just because of the opportunity cost.

I can see publishers throwing teams of younger guys at it, and taking more risk in that arena, which IMO is a good thing.

If the ROI on Live/EDI games starts to be comparable to regular games then it's a different story.
 
Right now it's pretty hard to justify throwing an "AAA Team" on a live or EDI title just because of the opportunity cost.

I can see publishers throwing teams of younger guys at it, and taking more risk in that arena, which IMO is a good thing.

If the ROI on Live/EDI games starts to be comparable to regular games then it's a different story.

What about Geometry Wars? Wasn't that game made by the guys that did PGR3? I heard it cost them about $200,000 to make that game and they made $2 million dollars back so far from downloads.

Sounds like a good ROI to me.
 
The 50 MB limit is hard, not a guideline.
It's not going away soon - there are tons of customers with 64 MB memory cards. Maybe in 2008, but I don't see it happening sooner.
And you've seen nothing in terms of what's possible in 50 MB. Roboblitz is just a hint of things to come ;-)
 
Freelance game development is not exactly new. The PC has had it for some time now. I don't see how any console's electronic distribution is significantly different than any PC portal's electronic distribution. And what do you see on the PC? Piles and piles of regurgitated, overused game designs and a few exceptional titles.

Now, does that sound like a renaissance or does it sound like what we already have on consoles? A lot of people think that small, downloadable games are somehow intimately or even inexorably tied to innovation, but reality contrasts with that starkly.
This isn't about freelance development a la PC. This isn't every man and his dog turning their hand to game developments. That's homebrew and a different sector. This is about real, pro game developers with talent and experience having a way to produce and sell smaller titles. That wasn't considered possible before. Whether right or wrong, something like Geometry Wars in a game shop released new for $10 on disc wasn't happening, in part to the high costs of manufacture and distribution. There's a minimum price on releasing a new DVD title and for that price, people want more than a simple little game.

With downloads, costs of distribution are negligable. That means you can create a $5 title and be able to sell it. You're not forced to create larger games with greater costs, and a greater need to see mainstream buying. You don't have to target key demographics with tried-and-tested formulas because there's a large ROI needed. It becomes a financial option for these talented, professional developer teams. You could have Naughty Dog and Insomniac creating smaller games and these games can afford to be more experimental because unlike discs, you're not having to recover $5-10 million in costs.

Don't confuse that with homebrew and the PC scene. The PC is strewn with people either not very good at game design trying to create a clone of an existing major title or genre, and where you have got talent, they don't have the resources to add the professional quality needed. The PC homebrew scene doesn't have $200,000 development funds for a title. It doesn't have a centralized audience with a single portal on which to sell your wares, where you can be sure to reach the entire market. It's also competing with itself in the masses of freeware online games, and building for itself a reputation for Crapware - try yet another homebrew game and find it's no good, just like the other 4 homebrews your tried...and you still want to go looking for other titles?

World's apart. We haven't ever had before a truly professional 'minigame' industry. This is definitely something new.
 
As has been noted basically every single time someone flames MS for this, XBLA is a threat to brick 'n mortar stores. On principle, they compete with each other. But MS absolutely needs good support from brick 'n mortar stores if they are to meet sales projections. Their solution was to make XBLA as innoffensive to Walmart, EB, etc. as possible. They simply cannot efficiently sell little games, hence the 50 MB guideline (it's not totally a rule, AFAIK). MS limits XBLA to be complementary to regular stores.

What exactly are the brick and mortar stores going to do about it anyway? Is there some sort of B&M consortium that could get together and decide to push back on X360 products? I doubt it.

And XBLA are sold in stores, there is already a release of 4 games I believe that can be picked up. I don't see how the difference between 250mb and 50mb would have any impact whatsoever on the B&M stores.
 
Freelance game development is not exactly new. The PC has had it for some time now. I don't see how any console's electronic distribution is significantly different than any PC portal's electronic distribution.
The difference is all clients have Cell, RSX, Sixaxis and the free, easy-to-use online-multiplayer infrastructure with the extensive microtransaction support around the world.
 
The difference is all clients have Cell, RSX, Sixaxis and the free, easy-to-use online-multiplayer infrastructure with the extensive microtransaction support around the world.

Just like all PCs have had x86, OGL/D3D, and Internet to download these games in the first place? Shareware came from the PC and will die with it; microtransactions aren't shareware they're shit. People either have to get the game for free to accept microtransactions as a service charge, or they won't do it - you can't con people with both a service charge and an up-front fee.

Go see Uplink if you need a reference.
 
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Just like all PCs have had x86, OGL/D3D, and Internet to download these games in the first place? Shareware came from the PC and will die with it; microtransactions aren't shareware they're shit. People either have to get the game for free to accept microtransactions as a service charge, or they won't do it - you can't con people with both a service charge and an up-front fee.

Go see Uplink if you need a reference.


Okay Kryton I see you are playing hardball, so let me say this.

Let's see which does better in 2007 between MS Arcade, Sony's EDI, and STEAM.
Obviously you are going to pick STEAM, but I'm putting my money on one of the consoles. ;)
 
What about Geometry Wars? Wasn't that game made by the guys that did PGR3? I heard it cost them about $200,000 to make that game and they made $2 million dollars back so far from downloads.

Sounds like a good ROI to me.

Sure but how many others have hit that sort of ROI.
It's good money, but if I can make more putting people on something else I will, it's just good business.
 
microtransactions aren't shareware they're shit. People either have to get the game for free to accept microtransactions as a service charge, or they won't do it - you can't con people with both a service charge and an up-front fee.

Do you really know what you're talking about?? All XBL arcade games are in fact shareware, and require absolutely no upfront fee. They can be downloaded with a silver account, which is free, and limited trial versions can be played. The very definition of shareware.
 
Just like all PCs have had x86, OGL/D3D, and Internet to download these games in the first place? Shareware came from the PC and will die with it; microtransactions aren't shareware they're shit. People either have to get the game for free to accept microtransactions as a service charge, or they won't do it - you can't con people with both a service charge and an up-front fee.

Go see Uplink if you need a reference.
Uplink? That 2D hacker game? It doesn't compare at all.

Lemme put an imaginative example. Last year IBM did a raycast fly-by demo for Cell. You could fly over Hawaii with joystick control. What'd happen if they wanted to release it as a cheap flight-sim game on EDI?

First, it can't be played on 99% of current x86, OGL/D3D PCs because of the processing load. PS3 has Sixaxis, it must be useful to map fly-by control. If it could sell a reasonable amount of copies, then they may plan expansion packs just like Microsoft Flight Sim. You can use Sony's microtransaction scheme there. Also localization support will be available. If your game becomes big, big publishers may approach you. It's already a PS3 game and an engine optimized for PS3, no need to port from PC. All the process is much smoother for those who have ambition than in the greater PC internet where getting attention is much harder.
 
In my view...

PC casual/mini-games are doing very well. But since the word got out, more casual game sites (or casual game section on popular destinations) popped up to catch the wave. Individual sites earn less today. These mini-games are mostly HTML or Flash-based. They capture office breaks, waiting for meetings, or any other dead time. So instant start is extremely important. Naturally availability on PC is also key.

I was under the impression that PC shareware/indie game is (still) not doing so well due to distribution and accessibility issues (No one knows where to buy them; Too long to download; Niche concepts; ...). Cheaper game is not a draw generally. They will have to build their brand slowly.

So *if* XBLA tries to position itself as the source of cheaper and smaller games, then it may not do well (It's still back to selective title-by-title hit sales, rather than fulfilling some sort of common social needs).

eDI games need to find its own footing. I don't know what it is. From the look of recent talks (XNA Express and Playstation Emulators), I'm pretty sure Sony and MS are aware of these dynamics. I don't think it's fair to compare eDI games with PC casual games (yet) until we know more. Experimentations are still underway. For instance...

Allow people to download and carry eDI games from PS3 to PSP and then to PC (Because of official emulators). At this moment, I don't believe streaming games from PS3 to PSP work as a consumer concept (Although it may work in the labs).

The other possible way to look at this is to streamline or improve their mainstream game development/innovation by experimenting with game concepts on a smaller scale first. Dunno whether this is a worthwhile exercise.

All in all, it may be too early to expect big returns out of this. But it's exciting times. A new genre may evolve out of this pile of mess (e.g., combining new songs with its own unique game, as a next step for MTV.... Err... may be not).

EDIT:
Non-games like secondlife.com would be another possible way out.
 
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While the max download size is (or was because Lumines goes over the limit) 50MB, MSFT would strongly prefer the games to be 25-30MB at the moment. The argument being so that 64MB memory card users can have more than one game on the card.
The upper limit boundary is what I believe contributed to Lumines being broken into so many pieces as all of them are just over 50MB (of the ones we have seen so far, that is)

When/if the limit is raised, I believe they would still like to maintain the at least two games per card mantra. I also don't think the Creators Club is going to have these particular restrictions/guidelines, but I'm not sure.
 
That's awesome news.
One big disapointment with 360 is the lack of lot's of good new games for odownload. And I haven't heard any news at all from Nintendo in regards to new VC games.
I will definately be watching the progress in this area.
 
Freelance game development is not exactly new. The PC has had it for some time now. I don't see how any console's electronic distribution is significantly different than any PC portal's electronic distribution. And what do you see on the PC? Piles and piles of regurgitated, overused game designs and a few exceptional titles.

Now, does that sound like a renaissance or does it sound like what we already have on consoles? A lot of people think that small, downloadable games are somehow intimately or even inexorably tied to innovation, but reality contrasts with that starkly.



As has been noted basically every single time someone flames MS for this, XBLA is a threat to brick 'n mortar stores. On principle, they compete with each other. But MS absolutely needs good support from brick 'n mortar stores if they are to meet sales projections. Their solution was to make XBLA as innoffensive to Walmart, EB, etc. as possible. They simply cannot efficiently sell little games, hence the 50 MB guideline (it's not totally a rule, AFAIK). MS limits XBLA to be complementary to regular stores.

If you'll notice, Nintendo and Sony are following this strategy just in different ways. When e-distribution becomes a powerful force, MS's restrictions will drop off. But that's not a battle MS needs to win, so they're playing both sides for the time being.

Worst case scenario, lets say in some future are all games downloaded, and none are sold at retail. Will retailers then still carry game hardware? The answer is clearly a resounding yes. First they do make a small profit on hardware sales. More importantly is the competition factor, if Wal Mart carries Xbox 360's and Target doesn't, that's more customer trips to Wal Mart, and getting people in the store is a very important goal for any retail chain, because they know that people dont typically purchase just the one item they came for on any trip to the store. They typically add a few more higher profit items into the basket before they check out. Of course that's the whole reason behind advertised loss leader "door buster" deals. That's even not considering console accessories (wireless controllers, memory cards and whatnot), which are even more profitable for the retailer. Any ONE of those three factors alone would probably be enough to force them to carry the hardware, let alone all three, after which it becomes a no-brainer, even if not a single console game was ever sold at retail.

Just as an aside microsoft has specifically mentioned one way they keep retailers involved with XBL is the sale of those LIVE and mspoints cards. Tons of kids dont have, or maybe mommy doesn't want them to use her, credit cards so they purchase those cards at retail. Another thing to consider, if a kid buys his XBLA games with a points card purchased at retail retail is kept involved.

I have another theory on why XBLA games are limited to 50MB (even if that limit might righly be increased to say, 250 MB in the future, which I think makes sense and will probably happen, doesn't change the point), because by nature it restricts the games to that small, arcadey nature. It's like a self-limiter. I mean there's no rule saying XBLA games cant be 3D, right? So what's to prevent some 3D epic being sold on XBLA? Well, one of the primary things preventing that is the 50MB limit. Microsoft has said they dont see XBLA supplanting traditional full size games. It will be a bonus, an add-on, a nice secondary thing, it's not strategized to be the main enchelada, at least at this time.

Now, whether in the future we will see full size games over Live, I dont know yet. That's a whole nother ball of wax.

I think the real killer downloadable app for these consoles though will be downloadable movies for purchase/rent. It will work spectacularly because the console is typically already attached to the main TV.
________
Waterbongs
 
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World's apart. We haven't ever had before a truly professional 'minigame' industry. This is definitely something new.
No, it's not. I don't know why you want to label all the PC developers of little games as impoverished or inept, but that's not the case. And I don't know why you keep talking about big name developers taking on these little games, because we're not seeing much of that. Look at Live. Where have most of the games come from?



What exactly are the brick and mortar stores going to do about it anyway? Is there some sort of B&M consortium that could get together and decide to push back on X360 products? I doubt it.
If MS pushes XBLA so hard that B&M lacks attention, B&M will focus their shelf space on Nintendo and Sony who will be more than happy to provide all the attention they want.

And XBLA are sold in stores, there is already a release of 4 games I believe that can be picked up.
That already existed last gen (the bundling of a bunch of little arcade games). It's not really a factor.

I don't see how the difference between 250mb and 50mb would have any impact whatsoever on the B&M stores.
Think from their persepctive, not your hard drive's.



The difference is all clients have Cell, RSX, Sixaxis and the free, easy-to-use online-multiplayer infrastructure with the extensive microtransaction support around the world.
None of those are significantly different than PC portals. Different, yes, but nothing important enough to put them in another category.



Worst case scenario, lets say in some future are all games downloaded, and none are sold at retail. Will retailers then still carry game hardware? The answer is clearly a resounding yes. First they do make a small profit on hardware sales. More importantly is the competition factor, if Wal Mart carries Xbox 360's and Target doesn't, that's more customer trips to Wal Mart, and getting people in the store is a very important goal for any retail chain, because they know that people dont typically purchase just the one item they came for on any trip to the store. They typically add a few more higher profit items into the basket before they check out. Of course that's the whole reason behind advertised loss leader "door buster" deals. That's even not considering console accessories (wireless controllers, memory cards and whatnot), which are even more profitable for the retailer. Any ONE of those three factors alone would probably be enough to force them to carry the hardware, let alone all three, after which it becomes a no-brainer, even if not a single console game was ever sold at retail.
You miss the point entirely, because that's not the worst case scenario whatsoever. The worst case is that MS promotes XBLA so much that it eats into regular sales quite a bit. Regular stores don't like it and are making less money or it anyway, so they turn to Nintendo and Sony who still believe in regular stores. MS gets creamed in that scenario. That's not a fight MS needs to win. They're not betting the company on that. So why would they risk it?
 
Mmm, I still think that was a smart move business wise, as it will have a big impact down the road in hitting $199 and $99 pricepoints before PS3 can get there.

That doesn't mean I like it a a consumer though :devilish:

The MC thing is just plain stupid, short sighted, nickle and dime thinking.
I don't think that really matters, as they seem to be selling well enough. I'm not saying they should have done the same package deal they do now for the Premium if they sold it as one unit, but I do think they should have had the HD in one package starting at... say... $360. ;)

They could have not bothered bundling the wireless controller or headset or component cables in and concentrated on the important stuff, and simply push the price down a bit ahead of schedule. (It's not like it will take any talent to "beat" the PS3 to those price points.) Not to mention the savings that would come from smoothing out the production and distribution process.

Unless the sales ratio of the Core is actually substantial compared to the Premium (and I have no hard numbers, but I think not--especially what with store employees pushing the Premium and badmouthing the Core the way I've seen), I think the monetary difference would be shruggable. Certainly not worth the downsides of forcing themselves and others to code to NOT having the HD, try to fit within the confines of a 64MB memory card, lacking backwards-compatibility, etc.

Just plain pointless, IMHO.
 
The upper limit boundary is what I believe contributed to Lumines being broken into so many pieces as all of them are just over 50MB (of the ones we have seen so far, that is)

I suspect the Lumens getting brokrn up part was more to do with the limitation on pricing, no more than $15 for a single download.
 
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