Sony Disable “Install Other OS” in firmware (v3.21)

I suspect their rights go beyond just accessing certain services. For example Microsoft was able to remove the ability to install games to the HDD of consoles deemed to be compromised. This goes beyond a service to an actual feature inside of the consoles. Bricking in this case is simply an extension of something they have already done and the complete removal of all services offered by the console.

They removed a convenience feature and one clearly without enough impact that some lawyer was willing to take them to trial over it. That's quite different than bricking the console with the fuse method you have meantioned earlier or even wiping out the OS to the point the console won't even boot. I have no doubt that console manufacturers can skate a gray line on what they can and can't do to a compromised console but you start pushing too far, and it could come back and cost you severely.

The burden of blocking these services sits with Microsoft. They can't take the easy way out and simply start disabling consoles from even booting up.
 
Definitely not! Once I have bought the console from them, it belongs to me. If they brick it, they are guilty of criminal damage. They have no more right to destroy my console as they have to destroy my TV, fridge, cuddly toy or curtains. The only way they could maintain rights on usage policy is if the lease the hardware instead of sell it. If I were renting my PS3, Sony could have a policy that I am not allowed to adjust the firmware otherwise the contract is voided and I have to return the console.
Well, Microsoft does the exact same thing when they catch a modded 360, so if they can get away with it...
 
Don´t they have the right to brick it and offer a "reboot" with a new firmware? If you go online with a CFW i think you are breaking some (maybe far stretched) rules and they could (should imho) be allowed to kill your machines custom firmware.

And kill the machine itself or kill the CFW so that it reverts to a compliant state?
 
Well, Microsoft does the exact same thing when they catch a modded 360, so if they can get away with it...

Microsofts bans you from live for modding a 360 and thats there official policy.

"All consumers should know that piracy is illegal and modifying their Xbox 360 console violates the Xbox Live terms of use, will void their warranty and result in a ban from Xbox Live."

If they brick 360s, they do so without sanctioning such a practice.
 
Definitely not! Once I have bought the console from them, it belongs to me. If they brick it, they are guilty of criminal damage. They have no more right to destroy my console as they have to destroy my TV, fridge, cuddly toy or curtains. The only way they could maintain rights on usage policy is if the lease the hardware instead of sell it. If I were renting my PS3, Sony could have a policy that I am not allowed to adjust the firmware otherwise the contract is voided and I have to return the console.

You do not own the software that makes the device what it is. Yes, you own the physical console but you don't own a single piece of OS code, they do, and if they want to change their OS code they can and barring popping fuses they haven't damaged your console and certainly not criminally.
 
Microsofts bans you from live for modding a 360 and thats there official policy.

"All consumers should know that piracy is illegal and modifying their Xbox 360 console violates the Xbox Live terms of use, will void their warranty and result in a ban from Xbox Live."

If they brick 360s, they do so without sanctioning such a practice.

They flash the firmware and revoke the cd key so you can no longer install games to the hdd and i think there are a couple other things as well. It's not just being banned from Live, which is a service, but they cripple the 360 that's modded as well.
 
They flash the firmware and revoke the cd key so you can no longer install games to the hdd and i think there are a couple other things as well. It's not just being banned from Live, which is a service, but they cripple the 360 that's modded as well.

No it doesn't. I have a co worker with a banned 360. It still plays his pirated and retail games fine.
 
They flash the firmware and revoke the cd key so you can no longer install games to the hdd and i think there are a couple other things as well. It's not just being banned from Live, which is a service, but they cripple the 360 that's modded as well.

HDD crippling has been removed with the latest USB flash support update.

Tommy McClain
 
Late to the discussion, but the Saturn had a rocker switch that you could install to play US and Japanese games. I had mine done to play imports early when I was in Hawaii. I'm not aware of any pirated software.

The Dreamcast could play pirated games without modification from what I recall.

While it may be true that "most" users of CFW may use it for piracy, I know for a fact that not all users of CFW are pirates.
 
You do not own the software that makes the device what it is. Yes, you own the physical console but you don't own a single piece of OS code, they do, and if they want to change their OS code they can and barring popping fuses they haven't damaged your console and certainly not criminally.
Hmm, that's an interesting point for the courts to thrash out. Does a company have a right to change the software on my machine? If MS wants to download some OS update that'll brick my PC if I run software they don't like, is that really allowed? If I buy a console, it is bought as being suitable for a purpose. The software is part of the package and is required to make the machine work - we don't just buy a bundle of components. When I buy it, it works. Now if I change the firmware to my own and the product still works, the console company loses all liability, but I can't see that extending to all circumstances. So if the CFW bricks the PS3, that's my fault, but if Sony do something to brick it, that'd be theirs. However if it's part of their service, they are entitled to change software.

You know, the long and the short of it, I think the way things are actually highlights exactly how it works. If ahcks and creating CFW is illegal, GeoHotz would be arrested. Everyone knows who he is and they can grab him for his iPhone activities. But they haven't. Likewise console companies do remove features from hacked consoles, but they are services to which one adheres to a contract to use said services. MS isn't destroying XB360s, only limiting their online functionality. Thus if someone wants to buy an XB360 and install a CFW for their own ends to work as a media server, they are allowed to do that (as in, the law and MS's lawyers let them) but they can't use the online components which requires another XB360.

Hence, it seems to me to play out that owning, installing and developing CFW aren't illegal activities. You are free to do what you want with your purchase. Console companies don't have a right to control how you use your product, but they do have a say in how you use their services and it's these that they can lock users out from. Managing future CFW is a matter of anti-hack measures and updating FW with services etc. to ensure users online aren't able to run CFW, just as it is now. There won't be cases of CFW creators getting taken to court for enabling piracy because they aren't responsible for how pirates use CFW; no more than a browser creator is responsible for someone using it to hack a website. If the console companies want to get draconian, they can enforce online connections for every use, but I doubt that'd help them sell consoles!
 
Hmm, that's an interesting point for the courts to thrash out. Does a company have a right to change the software on my machine? If MS wants to download some OS update that'll brick my PC if I run software they don't like, is that really allowed? If I buy a console, it is bought as being suitable for a purpose. The software is part of the package and is required to make the machine work - we don't just buy a bundle of components. When I buy it, it works. Now if I change the firmware to my own and the product still works, the console company loses all liability, but I can't see that extending to all circumstances. So if the CFW bricks the PS3, that's my fault, but if Sony do something to brick it, that'd be theirs. However if it's part of their service, they are entitled to change software.

But if a future update is incompatible with your CFW and that bricks your console then that would be your responsibility. Sony would be under no obligation to fix or replace your unit.

You know, the long and the short of it, I think the way things are actually highlights exactly how it works. If ahcks and creating CFW is illegal, GeoHotz would be arrested. Everyone knows who he is and they can grab him for his iPhone activities. But they haven't.

Yet...

Hence, it seems to me to play out that owning, installing and developing CFW aren't illegal activities. You are free to do what you want with your purchase. Console companies don't have a right to control how you use your product, but they do have a say in how you use their services and it's these that they can lock users out from. Managing future CFW is a matter of anti-hack measures and updating FW with services etc. to ensure users online aren't able to run CFW, just as it is now. There won't be cases of CFW creators getting taken to court for enabling piracy because they aren't responsible for how pirates use CFW; no more than a browser creator is responsible for someone using it to hack a website. If the console companies want to get draconian, they can enforce online connections for every use, but I doubt that'd help them sell consoles!

If I wrote a virus that was then used by other people to harm users data I would be ultimately held responsible, in the same way that if CFW is engineered to enable piracy then it is a criminal act. If you said that you were unaware that it allowed such activities and that it wasn't supposed to be used that way then that it just a cop out and the law needs to be changed.
 
There is always a disconnect between ethics and law, as there should be. This line of discussion sounds to me like it should be in the ethics sub-forum either way.
 
But if a future update is incompatible with your CFW and that bricks your console then that would be your responsibility. Sony would be under no obligation to fix or replace your unit.
Yes, that's fair. Users of CFW have the option to not connect to the internet. However, there's a difference between an update that's incompatible with your CFW causing system death, and a deliberate bricking mechanism the purpose of which is to deactivate hacked hardware. eg. PS3 will report on availabilty of updates without requiring a user to be logged on. It would be possible to have a system that without the user's consent, downloads software that destroys their hardware. This would be wrong. An update would need to require the user's consent and then brick their hardware. Without consent it'd be illegal destruction of a person's property. I point to Sony's rootkit fiasco to show companies don't have a right to mess up a user's hardware functionality without their permission.

If I wrote a virus that was then used by other people to harm users data I would be ultimately held responsible, in the same way that if CFW is engineered to enable piracy then it is a criminal act. If you said that you were unaware that it allowed such activities and that it wasn't supposed to be used that way then that it just a cop out and the law needs to be changed.
That's not a fair comparison. The purpose of a virus is to destroy a user's data. The purpose of a CFW is to enable other activities. Some of these are piracy, but that's not the purpose of CFW (or at least, can be argued as not the sole purpose. It depends on the intentions of the CFW creators).

That is, the guy creating the virus is the guy responsible for what the virus does, whereas the guy creating the C++ compiler used for writing a virus isn't. The guy creating pirate rips of games for a CFW is responsible for the piracy, whereas the guy creating the CFW that can run pirate rips isn't.
 
Im not sure it would be seen as wrong if they openly advertised the bricking security feature and was included in the terms and condition when the console was bought. If someone buys a console knowing that if they hack it it will brick, and they go ahead and hack it anyway, then they have noone to blame than themselves.
 
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Shifty Geezer said:
I point to Sony's rootkit fiasco to show companies don't have a right to mess up a user's hardware functionality without their permission.

Not really a good example. XCP 2.0 didn't destroy hardware. It *did* make your system more vulnerable to exploits, which even then, unto itself isn't illegal (that would the same as saying "buggy software" is illegal). It was the inability to remove the troublesome software in question that got Sony BMG in trouble.
 
They were lucky to get in early I guess. Amazon aren't going to give £80 back to every PS3 buyer! I think you'd be hard pushed to argue the value of Other OS is worth a significant part of the value of the system; if it were that important to you, you wouldn't have upgraded.
 
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