Should XBox Scorpio be an 'open PC' like MSX? *spawn

[Cyan]

or Rallisport Challenge 3

Wish they hear you.

Dunno with their lack of vision. In regards to Scorpio for instance, if it's just another new Xbox I'm thinking "ufffff, another console, I pass".

If they create a console/PC hybrid with Xbox Scorpio instead, at a great price, it is true that that won't give a boost to the machine economically ... But it will give it to its OS and its Microsoft store.

But for the simple fact of playing ... Having a console at this point does not seem the best option, 'cos the PC eats them.

We shall see what MS does and if it does an MSX3 or something different, nice, else I will get a capable PC and leave console battles of exclusives that sell machines which like a mate define them... "Then you're forcing me to buy a machine because the machine cannot do that by itself".

 

[Jay]

Wish they hear you.

Dunno with their lack of vision. In regards to Scorpio for instance, if it's just another new Xbox I'm thinking "ufffff, another console, I pass".

If they create a console/PC hybrid with Xbox Scorpio instead, at a great price, it is true that that won't give a boost to the machine economically ... But it will give it to its OS and its Microsoft store.

But for the simple fact of playing ... Having a console at this point does not seem the best option, 'cos the PC eats them.

We shall see what MS does and if it does an MSX3 or something different, nice, else I will get a capable PC and leave console battles of exclusives that sell machines which like a mate says "Then you're forcing me to buy a machine because the machine cannot do that by itself".

when you say use it as pc, do you mean uwp apps, as that's already the case, does need full keyboard and mouse support for it really though.

otherwise not sure what your looking for.
as a standard pc it would be pretty unbalanced.
if your talking about playing say steam games which would be a huge mistake for them anyway, not taking into account for pc it would have a severely weak cpu as games aren't optimized for it.

 

[Cyan]

when you say use it as pc, do you mean uwp apps, as that's already the case, does need full keyboard and mouse support for it really though.

otherwise not sure what your looking for.
as a standard pc it would be pretty unbalanced.
if your talking about playing say steam games which would be a huge mistake for them anyway, not taking into account for pc it would have a severely weak cpu as games aren't optimized for it.

a regular PC. You could decide whether to run it on Xbox mode or PC mode when launching the console. As for the CPU, it's not impressive but it isn't as bad either, I mention this as someone who has a netbook and got used to it, that's really slow, but a 8 core 2.3GHz...does sound fine.

Why do you think running Steam, GoG, etc games a mistake for them?

 

[Pixel]

BRB ordering t-shirt and paging Cyan

https://www.redbubble.com/people/cr...box-monster-spec?asc=t&p=mens-graphic-t-shirt

They really should add a few lines about the cpu to that tshirt:
- Modified Jaguar based cpu running at a blazing 2.3GHz
- Humongous 4MB L2 cache spread across 8 cores running at halfrate (1.15GHz)

Kidding Scorpio is going to be amazing for its pricepoint, and jaguar was nesseary to ensure full backwards compat.

 

[AzBat]

One more line... Pixel being an ass.

Edit: Nice ninja edit

Tommy McClain

 

[Jay]

a regular PC. You could decide whether to run it on Xbox mode or PC mode when launching the console. As for the CPU, it's not impressive but it isn't as bad either, I mention this as someone who has a netbook and got used to it, that's really slow, but a 8 core 2.3GHz...does sound fine.

Why do you think running Steam, GoG, etc games a mistake for them?

1. They wont to push uwp even on Windows, so allowing straight win32 would be a big step back from that.
2. they get money from xgold and Xbox store which they would miss out on if people could run steam games, maybe not the aaa as they wouldn't run anyway, but indies could run.
3. its an Xbox one device, doubt very much they would allow one x1 device to do it and another not to, the user experience on x1 would be even worse.
4. It would seriously cause problems for their pc oem hardware partners.

The hardware is more about getting people into ecosystem/gold and store than about the sale of the hardware itself.

 

[Cyan]

1. They wont to push uwp even on Windows, so allowing straight win32 would be a big step back from that.
2. they get money from xgold and Xbox store which they would miss out on if people could run steam games, maybe not the aaa as they wouldn't run anyway, but indies could run.
3. its an Xbox one device, doubt very much they would allow one x1 device to do it and another not to, the user experience on x1 would be even worse.
4. It would seriously cause problems for their pc oem hardware partners.

The hardware is more about getting people into ecosystem/gold and store than about the sale of the hardware itself.

1. Don't you hope they freed the machine at least in the PC layer? I hope so. Because console gaming as is, is a ballast.
2. Steam is free, so if you launch the X360 emulator on PC and give away free games every month, console gamers and PC gamers alike could subscribe to XBL.
3. their premise is that games running on Xbox Scorpio must run on One too. That's like saying that evolution musnt exist, as if it runs on Scorpio it should run on the original Xbox, for instance. Kinect games wont be playable on Scorpio, afaik, hardware evolves.
4. good point. Thought of that, and that doesn't need to be the case -no pun intended. As long as they keep the design of the innards, especially a low level sound and vapour ventilation, they could let HP, Dell, Acer, etc, to create their own Scorpio version within their limits. Very few people buy premade desktop PCs these days, especially when you have laptops and notebooks and tablets. Those who buy desktop computers usually customise them.

that's why I called it MSX3. The original MSX was created by Microsoft but it wasn't Microsoft who made it popular, but Japanese developers.

 

[Jay]

1. Don't you hope they freed the machine at least in the PC layer? I hope so. Because console gaming as is, is a ballast.
2. Steam is free, so if you launch the X360 emulator on PC and give away free games every month, console gamers and PC gamers alike could subscribe to XBL.
3. their premise is that games running on Xbox Scorpio must run on One too. That's like saying that evolution musnt exist, as if it runs on Scorpio it should run on the original Xbox, for instance. Kinect games wont be playable on Scorpio, afaik, hardware evolves.
4. good point. Thought of that, and that doesn't need to be the case -no pun intended. As long as they keep the design of the innards, especially a low level sound and vapour ventilation, they could let HP, Dell, Acer, etc, to create their own Scorpio version within their limits. Very few people buy premade desktop PCs these days, especially when you have laptops and notebooks and tablets. Those who buy desktop computers usually customise them.

that's why I called it MSX3. The original MSX was created by Microsoft but it wasn't Microsoft who made it popular, but Japanese developers.

1. personally, no I don't wish they would. I've got a pc, but I also like idea of consoles also.
2. Steam to register may be free, but buying from there your not purchasing from the Xbox store. Unless your saying that xgold is only good for x360 games? They already have a pr issue charging for gold on console and not win10. Pc gamers wouldn't subscribe for x360 games, they would won't x360 games to be available though, but complain if not available from steam
3. Kinect games are playable on Scorpio same as x1s, there both x1 consoles.
4. msx failed, steam boxs failed also. even if they try to move to that type of format, it would also fail if they didn't do it slowly taking console gamers along with them. Which would mean it taking years. Console gamers, would say why do we need this console hybrid when can just get a rig, ms looses xgold, xstore, and win 10 store isn't exactly doing well. Their Xbox division would tank in every kind of measure possible.

 

[Cyan]

4. msx failed, steam boxs failed also. even if they try to move to that type of format, it would also fail if they didn't do it slowly taking console gamers along with them. Which would mean it taking years.

MSX wasn't a failure at all -I know a 38 years old guy who owned one and loved it to death, ask Japanese if it failed, it didn't-, it was just another device in a time amongst a myriad of devices and only the PC reigned supreme, it was bound to happen.

1. personally, no I don't wish they would. I've got a pc, but I also like idea of consoles also
.

Well, I started as a PC gamer and also like the idea of consoles, but as I tell you, both devices can be easily merged into one when you are in an unique position and have the tools and the OS, which is the case of Microsoft.

Trust me I really really like Scorpio, the specs, what I've seen, maybe because of my life style consoles aren't for me anymore? I want a device where I can have my hundreds of games purchased over the years working and not having to split my time between devices.

Microsoft are playing two sides of the coin, when they could merge things up and call it a day.

2. Steam to register may be free, but buying from there your not purchasing from the Xbox store. Unless your saying that xgold is only good for x360 games? They already have a pr issue charging for gold on console and not win10. Pc gamers wouldn't subscribe for x360 games, they would won't x360 games to be available though, but complain if not available from steam.

If you have Scorpio and is dual boot it's more likely people are going to buy games where the have the most friends, be it Steam or XBL. Plus in "console mode" games are prone to run better, people would probably buy the Scorpio version. Additionally, if you pay for XBL and there is an ecosystem, like Play Anywhere, the distinction between console gamers and PC gamers is gone.

You pay for XBL regardless of the platform.

3. Kinect games are playable on Scorpio same as x1s, there both x1 consoles.

You are right, you need an adapter since Xbox One S is out though, and nobody cares about Kinect anymore.

 

[Jay]

MSX wasn't a failure at all -I know a 38 years old guy who owned one and loved it to death, ask Japanese if it failed, it didn't-, it was just another device in a time amongst a myriad of devices and only the PC reigned supreme, it was bound to happen.
Well, I started as a PC gamer and also like the idea of consoles, but as I tell you, both devices can be easily merged into one when you are in an unique position and have the tools and the OS, which is the case of Microsoft.

Trust me I really really like Scorpio, the specs, what I've seen, maybe because of my life style consoles aren't for me anymore? I want a device where I can have my hundreds of games purchased over the years working and not having to split my time between devices.

Microsoft are playing two sides of the coin, when they could merge things up and call it a day.
If you have Scorpio and is dual boot it's more likely people are going to buy games where the have the most friends, be it Steam or XBL. Plus in "console mode" games are prone to run better, people would probably buy the Scorpio version. Additionally, if you pay for XBL and there is an ecosystem, like Play Anywhere, the distinction between console gamers and PC gamers is gone.

You pay for XBL regardless of the platform.
You are right, you need an adapter since Xbox One S is out though, and nobody cares about Kinect anymore.

replace msx with 3do then.
either way, there's many issues with the idea, so the oem devices would run Scorpio hardware? If not then standard pc hardware which would have all the issues that standard pc's have like drivers etc.
just talking hardware, the only way ms would be able to leave space for oem's is the way they do it with the surface brand. Which would mean Scorpio selling for closer to $600, possibly bit more. To allow oems to be able to produce cheaper versions at a profit.

I understand you liking the thought of a stream box merged with Xbox. You don't wont to switch devices, give up on your steam games, then pc is for you, you can still get most of ms exclusives, and that's how their catering for you.

in the future would they like to find a way to provide Xbox as a service and get out of the hardware side? Probably, and that would lead to something closer to what you want.
I personally think you shouldn't expect that anytime soon though. That, or what you described.

do expect them to push uwp, which would make the console more flexible.

 

[Cyan]

replace msx with 3do then.
either way, there's many issues with the idea, so the oem devices would run Scorpio hardware? If not then standard pc hardware which would have all the issues that standard pc's have like drivers etc.
just talking hardware, the only way ms would be able to leave space for oem's is the way they do it with the surface brand. Which would mean Scorpio selling for closer to $600, possibly bit more. To allow oems to be able to produce cheaper versions at a profit.

why do you use 3D0 as an example? just curious...was it half a computer?

In regards to drivers, since everything is soldered to the motherboard, the drivers would be easy to install.

I understand you liking the thought of a stream box merged with Xbox. You don't wont to switch devices, give up on your steam games, then pc is for you, you can still get most of ms exclusives, and that's how their catering for you.

Steam and GoG is where I have the most games, yes. Streaming games services aren't my thing at all though, on the contrary..

in the future would they like to find a way to provide Xbox as a service and get out of the hardware side? Probably, and that would lead to something closer to what you want.
I personally think you shouldn't expect that anytime soon though. That, or what you described.

do expect them to push uwp, which would make the console more flexible.

Hopefully they don't leave the hardware side. My only wish is that Xbox becomes something more along the lines of a xbox + windows combination, which was Bill Gates initial plan --hence the Scorpio name could have something to do with that, and the green and blue logo of Scorpio's motherboard.

Xbox is a brand I am quite attached to, always will, and Scorpio looks so appealing...

My life as of currently means that I am not touching the Xbox One as much as I'd like. Switching devices, moving X1 controllers around to play on PC then on the console again, is becoming a bit of a hassle for me.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

why do you use 3D0 as an example?

It was intended as an open platform that other hardware manufacturers could make. There were 3DO consoles made by Panasonic, Sanyo, and Goldstar.

 

[iroboto]

Wish they hear you.

Dunno with their lack of vision. In regards to Scorpio for instance, if it's just another new Xbox I'm thinking "ufffff, another console, I pass".

If they create a console/PC hybrid with Xbox Scorpio instead, at a great price, it is true that that won't give a boost to the machine economically ... But it will give it to its OS and its Microsoft store.

But for the simple fact of playing ... Having a console at this point does not seem the best option, 'cos the PC eats them.

We shall see what MS does and if it does an MSX3 or something different, nice, else I will get a capable PC and leave console battles of exclusives that sell machines which like a mate says "Then you're forcing me to buy a machine because the machine cannot do that by itself".

I guess it all depends on what MS wants Scorpio to do. Obviously the more functionality the better. But if we're looking at purely gaming, it would be ideal at least imo, if XBOX had a UWP Steam Link app to stream games from PC to xbox. Don't see why it couldn't work.

 

[Scott_Arm]

It was intended as an open platform that other hardware manufacturers could make. There were 3DO consoles made by Panasonic, Sanyo, and Goldstar.

Did not know that. Don't think I ever saw a physical unit. Only ever saw it in a catalog.

 

[Cyan]

It was intended as an open platform that other hardware manufacturers could make. There were 3DO consoles made by Panasonic, Sanyo, and Goldstar.

The concept as you describe, then was not bad, it was the marketing of the machine, the complex console industry at the time with Sega en Nintendo battling for supremacy and only Sony managed to compete and then reign, but it sounds more like the Jaguar which wasn't bad but needed that something extra to beat Nintendo and Sega. Maybe it hadn't much to do with the concept of 3DO itself.

The comparison I made with the MSX is that some people I know was raised in a time they had one at home, and it brings back their childhood memories. That was a good concept of a machine, create the basis and let others play around with it, which is more or less what a PC is these days, but there is nothing stopping you from creating a closed console experience in the same machine and have the best of both worlds. If it is priced well enough, people can get a better overall experience from it.

Some iconic sagas were created on the MSX only as initial MSX games, like R-Type or Aleste, etc...

 

[Cyan]

I guess it all depends on what MS wants Scorpio to do. Obviously the more functionality the better. But if we're looking at purely gaming, it would be ideal at least imo, if XBOX had a UWP Steam Link app to stream games from PC to xbox. Don't see why it couldn't work.

hehe, that sounds ok at home. Back in October I played FIFA Soccer from Megadrive on an emulator on my PC with my best childhood friend (he had the Megadrive at the time -he also had the Atari 2600 but for a very little time, a NES, PS1, PS2 and then X360 and Xbox One now-) streaming the game on the Xbox One.

It was a fun experience, despite my slow 6MB connection.

@Jay mentioned how good is the console experience and I very much love the concept of consoles. I started out as a PC gamer in the mid-late 90s and I quite enjoy customising things, the freedom...the coolness of PC gamers...

But I haven't played on a true gaming PC in a long time, not since voodoo3 was a thing --or my good ol' Matrox G400 for that matter.

I've been an xbox gamer for a long time, since December 2004 and how much I loved it!! But this generation more than any other has left me feeling like I am missing something, and in addition I miss the freedom, but most of all, it's that I need to have everything organised in a single machine, not to feel overwhelmed.

Since I have to use a PC most of the time, and since uncle Phil is merging Xbox exclusives in the PC space, I don't see why Scorpio couldn't be a console and a PC, making it unique and tbh no other company in the console business can achieve that. Nintendo in that sense are the most innovative and daring, I guess, they take the most advantage of the resources they have.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If it is priced well enough, people can get a better overall experience from it.

That's the problem. Adding in IHVs to make things to spec makes it harder to profit. The consoles work because of the license fee. If hardware makers aren't getting a cut from games sold, they have to profit from the hardware, pushing up hardware prices and/or having such narrow profit margins as to make it a fool's game. The only reason we have the Windows PC dominant is because the original IBM machine was overpriced and easily cloned, followed by a cut-throat computing industry that slashed prices and saw many companies rise and fall. The reason Apple have $250 billion in pocket-money is because they operate closed systems without clones eating into their profits. The reason SIE's financials are up is because they operate a closed console system.

Some iconic sagas were created on the MSX only as initial MSX games, like R-Type or Aleste, etc...

Any evidence to support that? R-Type was an arcade game AFAIK. The internet suggest Aleste was created for the Master System and ported to MSX 2. I'm sure it got its own selection of titles, but so did every machine of that era thanks to open homebrew. In the history of gaming, I only ever hear about MSX as a concept that got some traction in Japan. Never anything about it being a hotbed of creativity in the same way as the Spectrum or C64 or Amiga.

 

[Cyan]

That's the problem. Adding in IHVs to make things to spec makes it harder to profit. The consoles work because of the license fee. If hardware makers aren't getting a cut from games sold, they have to profit from the hardware, pushing up hardware prices and/or having such narrow profit margins as to make it a fool's game. The only reason we have the Windows PC dominant is because the original IBM machine was overpriced and easily cloned, followed by a cut-throat computing industry that slashed prices and saw many companies rise and fall. The reason Apple have $250 billion in pocket-money is because they operate closed systems without clones eating into their profits. The reason SIE's financials are up is because they operate a closed console system.
.

Well, I had never thought about it in that sense. Corny as it sounds, I just don't fully trust uncle Phil saying the price is going to be "right". Apparently the machine is going to sell at a loss and if that's the case opening it up and charging 50$ extra with all the additional functionality might be palatable to some.

This level of tech would have cost a fortune in the PC space, if you build a machine from scratch. Given the fact that Scorpio is aimed at the enthusiast market and for people who are willing to spend more on their hobby, it's not for everyone just looking to buy a console to play on from time to time. It gives those people looking for a little more out of their gaming experience, the opportunity to have all of that. Giving options to the consumer is a good thing imo.

Want both console mode and PC mode when the machine is switched on? Let the user choose from a starting screen what they prefer. Do you want a console and hate PC Gaming? Let users choose to hide the PC mode selector for as long as they can and always launch in closed console mode by default. Same for the other way around.

What does SIE stand for?

Any evidence to support that? R-Type was an arcade game AFAIK. The internet suggest Aleste was created for the Master System and ported to MSX 2. I'm sure it got its own selection of titles, but so did every machine of that era thanks to open homebrew. In the history of gaming, I only ever hear about MSX as a concept that got some traction in Japan. Never anything about it being a hotbed of creativity in the same way as the Spectrum or C64 or Amiga.

While I never had the MSX, I've read some articles on it. The MSX article in the Wikipedia mentions that some now famous videogames started out or stablished themselves with the MSX.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX

The most popular and famous MSX games were written by Japanese software-houses such as Konami and Hudson Soft. Several popular video game franchises were initially established on the MSX:

• Aleste and Zanac (the latter developed and released alongside the original FDS version)
• Bomberman
• Penguin Adventure
• Eggerland
• Metal Gear
• Parodius
• Puyo Puyo

You are right that R-Type -one of the most iconic games ever, I think, beating the evil Bydo empire always sounds good- doesn't fit in that category. I was talking on memory. :/

Others got various installments on the MSX, including some titles unique to the system or largely reworked versions of games on other formats:

• Castlevania (as Vampire Killer)
• Contra
• Dragon Quest
• Dragon Slayer
• Final Fantasy
• Gradius (Nemesis)
• R-Type
• Wizardry
• Xak
• Xevious: Fardraut Saga
• Ys

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This level of tech would have cost a fortune in the PC space, if you build a machine from scratch.

And why is that? Because each component manufacturer who doesn't get a cut of the software sales has to make a profit on the components. Now along comes MS undercutting them all with this amazingly cheap PC that's subsidized from the game sales. Suddenly things get complicated. If you look at Google's devices, they don't price them cheaper than rivals even though they could thanks to Play Store revenue.

Given the fact that Scorpio is aimed at the enthusiast market and for people who are willing to spend more on their hobby, it's not for everyone just looking to buy a console to play on from time to time. It gives those people looking for a little more out of their gaming experience, the opportunity to have all of that. Giving options to the consumer is a good thing imo.

All choices have consequences. Not least, some of what you're suggesting means people buying a cheap Scorpio console from MS and then cheap games from Steam, meaning MS aren't gaining anything. Scorpio doesn't have to be anything more than a more powerful console for core gamers, and in being that (along with some entertainment functionality) it'll sell and make MS money.

What does SIE stand for?

Sony Interactive Entertainment. It replaced Sony Computer Entertainment in April 2016 when networking and computer entertainment were both combined.

While I never had the MSX, I've read some articles on it. The MSX article in the Wikipedia mentions that some now famous videogames started out or stablished themselves with the MSX.

Other than Metal Gear, I'm not seeing much there that's special. MSX didn't really accomplish anything that makes it a good model for MS to follow with Scorpio. Other, closed, platforms were far more impactful.

 

[Cyan]

And why is that? Because each component manufacturer who doesn't get a cut of the software sales has to make a profit on the components. Now along comes MS undercutting them all with this amazingly cheap PC that's subsidized from the game sales. Suddenly things get complicated. If you look at Google's devices, they don't price them cheaper than rivals even though they could thanks to Play Store revenue.

Fair enough.

Just note that the idea wasn't calling it a PC, but a hybrid to open up possibilities.

All choices have consequences. Not least, some of what you're suggesting means people buying a cheap Scorpio console from MS and then cheap games from Steam, meaning MS aren't gaining anything. Scorpio doesn't have to be anything more than a more powerful console for core gamers, and in being that (along with some entertainment functionality) it'll sell and make MS money.

If people are given the option to buy and get games, Win 32 programs, UWP stuff freely, that means they will be using the device, hence there is a potential for them to go outside Steam and buy a game from the W10 store or in the console mode because it performs faster.

There are potential sales beyond. Also games like Age of Empires are in Steam.

Sony Interactive Entertainment. It replaced Sony Computer Entertainment in April 2016 when networking and computer entertainment were both combined.
.

Ah ok, thanks, I thought about Sony for a moment but rapidly scrapped it because of the I.

Other than Metal Gear, I'm not seeing much there that's special. MSX didn't really accomplish anything that makes it a good model for MS to follow with Scorpio. Other, closed, platforms were far more impactful.

You like the comparison in this case and that's okay but you are talking about a product from a different time and era, so measuring its success -was successful in Japan and that's a very good sign though I agree with you it didn't prevail in many other places- is not fair.

In your eyes, you see it just as a MSX3. What I am implying is that the revolution is in the concept not in the MSX3 idea itself.

Microsoft are themselves playing two different fields, consoles and Windows 10. If they want a ecosystem, their approach of getting rid of Xbox exclusives is somewhat understandable. However, what's the point of doing so when many people buy a machine to play its exclusivities? That means less sales.

If you drool about The Last of Us or Zelda, you must get PS4 or Nintendo Switch --GT and F-Zero are my favourite, had I the money I'd get both machines to play those games.

As for MS, most of their other exclusives (I should put that in quotes because they are all available on PC anyway) don't jazz me all that much without a machine to play them exclusively.

But now that's not that bad at the same time because depending on how the E3 goes, it doesn't matter, probably some day we are going to play Project Gotham Racing :smile2: in a capable PC and you aren't forced to buy a certain machine to play something. If Scorpio was an hybrid you could get a Play Anywhere game and play it with your friends in console mode or in PC mode with your Steam friends or whatever you prefer.