Security Fence Distortions

[Legion]

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Security_Fence_Distortions.asp

 

[pax]

That map of the fence is def different from the one Ive seen where a lot more land ended up on the western side. In its unfinished state we dont know yet where the fence with finally end up.

I have no probs with the fence but I do think it should be on the green line like the israeli army initially proposed for it to be.

 

[Legion]

That map of the fence is def different from the one Ive seen where a lot more land ended up on the western side. In its unfinished state we dont know yet where the fence with finally end up.

Would you please post the picture of the fence plans you have seen? I am willing to wager they are more than likely propaganda distortions of fact.

The map used here comes from:

Whose map is Wallace using? The map pictured here, courtesy of the left-wing B'Tzelem, is based on the Israeli Ministry of Defense's operative plan and places the fence very close to the "Green Line":

I have no probs with the fence but I do think it should be on the green line like the israeli army initially proposed for it to be.

I have no problem with it either though i see a valid argument here:

As illustrated here, no more than 10-15% of the West Bank will be on the western side of the security fence. It's also important to remember that the West Bank's "Green Line" has never represented an international boundary ― the 1949 armistice agreements specifically refer to this fact. And there's never been a recognized sovereign entity in the West Bank.

 

[pax]

It was a map on a 60 minutes segment... Ill see if I can find it...

edit no map but article... http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/11/60minutes/main588084.shtml


With the opposition of such high ranking members of shin beit we shouldnt see the debate over the wall as ideological...

 

[Legion]

THe fence serves a necessary purpose

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_2441915,00.html

the argument this is a way for the Israeli's to land grab is entirely based on AP misrepresentation of the Israel's policy on the matter.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0o170

Israel has made the use of public lands a priority in building the security fence, in order to avoid, as much as possible, the use of private lands. If this is not possible, then private land is requisitioned, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner. Legal procedures allow every owner to file an objection to the use of their land. When private lands are used, owners are offered full compensation, in accordance with the law; this compensation is offered both as a lump sum and also on a monthly basis.

With the opposition of such high ranking members of shin beit we shouldnt see the debate over the wall as ideological...

your article states this:

Ami Ayalon was commander of the Israeli Navy, and was decorated for valor on the battlefield. He's also a former head of the secret Israeli agency charged with preventing terrorism, the Shin Bet. Last month, Ayalon and three other former heads of the Shin Bet dropped a bombshell in Israel's largest circulation newspaper when they came out against the fence and against the Sharon government's harsh treatment of the Palestinians.

Here is what Ayalon said in an interview with the AP.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_2441915,00.html

Those who oppose the fence say it's really a land grab, that we are prejudging any political outcome and making life harsher for the Palestinians. But we say no, it's not any of these. Categorically, this is a buffer zone. It's certainly not a political border because it can be removed at any time. If the Palestinians stop terrorism, we won't need a fence. By stopping terrorism I mean dismantling their infrastructure, collecting illegal weapons and closing the explosives labs. We can't allow them to regroup; the leaders must be arrested. Do this and we won't need a fence.

Needless to say the cbs article seems to be bullshitting. I would like to see the speach the author reference's in which Ami Ayalon opposing the fence and Israeli policy he helped form.

Strangely neither the speach nor the newpaper which printed it are mentioned....

Ambassador Daniel Ayalon has played an instrumental role in crafting Israel's foreign policy during the last three Israeli administrations. Prior to his appointment as ambassador to the United States in June 2002, he was foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

 

[pax]

I seriously doubt the leaders of shin bet are that misquoted. I dont thikn 60 min could geta way with grossly misquoting what was said or meant. Wed see interviews in repsonce to the 60 min bit in no time online fomr major israeli newspapers. Hes not against the fence but he is against its current form and as a standalone policy. Heck the fence was proposed by the israeli army so it must have come from shin bet itself initially as it was the agency charged with anti terrorist policy. I mean I saw him interviewed tho it was very short in that bit on 60 min. He plainly said the fence wont secure anyone and will make things worse unless the palestinians are offered hope.

I think he is probably meaning that the fence may make sense to stop a few crazies but wont stop an impoverished hopeless populace that eventually resorts to attacking the fence all along its 400 mile length. If the fence disturbs the economic and social life of palestinians too much that is very likely and I dont think israel can afford to police the fence along its full length if too many attacks on its are carried out...

And the fact remains some palestinian land is being taken when its not necessary other than to justify some of the settlements. 15% might not sound much but its enough considering the size of the west bank and that it cuts into palestinian towns.

EDIT:

Your own article mentions the 4 dissidents...

Over the last several months, there have been numerous reports of dissent within the Israel military itself over the government's policies. The military chief of staff has said that the curfews and roadblocks imposed on Palestinian civilians were fomenting hatred. And recently four former heads of the domestic security service said pretty much the same thing. Is there a crisis of confidence brewing within the military?
Ayalon: No. There is an ongoing debate in public life in Israel and these expressions are part of it. But let me say, this does reinforce in my mind Israel's need for the fence, because if you have the fence you will not need troops to be intrusive on the Palestinian side. We can just call them back and guard the perimeter.

 

[pax]

OK I should have seen this sooner... ami ayalon is NOT daniel Ayalon...

We both got a bit lost there...

 

[Legion]

I seriously doubt the leaders of shin bet are that misquoted.

It sure seems Ayalon was. You can read direct quotes from him in the page i presented.

I dont thikn 60 min could geta way with grossly misquoting what was said or meant.

Come now. Many media agents have gotten away with completely misrepresenting Jenin, Intafada, etc.

Why weren't the newspapers or the speaches provided for the reader to examin?

Wed see interviews in repsonce to the 60 min bit in no time online fomr major israeli newspapers. Hes not against the fence but he is against its current form and as a standalone policy.

I do not see the link. Can you provide it?

If that is true it hardly equates this:

Ami Ayalon was commander of the Israeli Navy, and was decorated for valor on the battlefield. He's also a former head of the secret Israeli agency charged with preventing terrorism, the Shin Bet. Last month, Ayalon and three other former heads of the Shin Bet dropped a bombshell in Israel's largest circulation newspaper when they came out against the fence and against the Sharon government's harsh treatment of the Palestinians.

I think you have to admit the AP's distortion of what Ayalon said in order to invent a major opposition in Israel of the building of the fence.

Heck the fence was proposed by the israeli army so it must have come from shin bet itself initially as it was the agency charged with anti terrorist policy. I mean I saw him interviewed tho it was very short in that bit on 60 min. He plainly said the fence wont secure anyone and will make things worse unless the palestinians are offered hope.

Who said this? Ayalon? If so why is he quoted less than a month earlier saying this:

Ayalon: Less than that. We are not done completely with the planning. We are still modifying here and there, wherever we can, and we are discussing it with the Americans. We have very good mechanisms for dialogue with the Americans, and I think we have come a long way. From the beginning there was a consensus, almost, in Washington against the fence. But they now in principle seem to understand that such a defense is necessary - necessary not only to protect life, but to also ensure a viable political process.

News: Has the Bush administration publicly stated its support for the fence?

Ayalon: Well, it still says it's a problem. But I think it does believe Israel should do everything in its power for self-defense, and it says publicly that it will work with us on the details. And this is pretty much an accurate account of the situation.

I think he is probably meaning that the fence may make sense to stop a few crazies but wont stop an impoverished hopeless populace that eventually resorts to attacking the fence all along its 400 mile length. If the fence disturbs the economic and social life of palestinians too much that is very likely and I dont think israel can afford to police the fence along its full length if too many attacks on its are carried out...

I will wait to discuss this when i see his speach.

And the fact remains some palestinian land is being taken when its not necessary other than to justify some of the settlements. 15% might not sound much but its enough considering the size of the west bank and that it cuts into palestinian towns.

hardly Pax. Israeli Foreign Ministry

Israel has made the use of public lands a priority in building the security fence, in order to avoid, as much as possible, the use of private lands. If this is not possible, then private land is requisitioned, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner. Legal procedures allow every owner to file an objection to the use of their land. When private lands are used, owners are offered full compensation, in accordance with the law; this compensation is offered both as a lump sum and also on a monthly basis.

News: The fence would cut off 15 percent to 20 percent of the West Bank, is that right?

Ayalon: Less than that. We are not done completely with the planning. We are still modifying here and there, wherever we can, and we are discussing it with the Americans. We have very good mechanisms for dialogue with the Americans, and I think we have come a long way. From the beginning there was a consensus, almost, in Washington against the fence. But they now in principle seem to understand that such a defense is necessary - necessary not only to protect life, but to also ensure a viable political process.

 

[pax]

again not the same guy...

http://www.nimn.org/jewishper/AmiAyalon.html

http://www.fmep.org/documents/briefing_Nusseibeh-Ayalon_12-12-03.html

"The People's Voice - Statement of Intentions

1. Two states for two peoples: Both sides will declare that Palestine is the only state of the Palestinian people and Israel is the only state of the Jewish people.

2. Borders: Permanent borders between the two states will be agreed to on the basis of the June 4, 1967 lines, UN resolutions and the Arab peace initiative (known as the Saudi initiative).

Border modifications will be based on an equal territorial exchanged (1:1) in accordance with the vital needs of both sides, including security, territorial contiguity, and demographic considerations.

The Palestinian state will have a connection between its two geographic areas, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

After establishment of the agreed border, no settler will remain in the Palestinian state."

 

[Legion]

again not the same guy...

I was in the process of writing my rebuttle so seeing what you wrote came to me when i was able to refresh.

http://www.nimn.org/jewishper/AmiAyalon.html

http://www.fmep.org/documents/briefing_Nusseibeh-Ayalon_12-12-03.html

If Ami wishes to call Israeli Foreign Ministry a group of liars thats his business but i will require actual substance before i believe his suggestions that the Israeli government is attempting to hold onto and acquire more "illegal" land grabs through the creation of this fence. To me he seems to have an agenda.

Again here is the Israeli Foreign Ministry directly quoted

Israel has made the use of public lands a priority in building the security fence, in order to avoid, as much as possible, the use of private lands. If this is not possible, then private land is requisitioned, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner. Legal procedures allow every owner to file an objection to the use of their land. When private lands are used, owners are offered full compensation, in accordance with the law; this compensation is offered both as a lump sum and also on a monthly basis.

Here is more information concerning the Fence:

http://www.seamzone.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/default.htm

1. Two states for two peoples: Both sides will declare that Palestine is the only state of the Palestinian people and Israel is the only state of the Jewish people.

Today there are plenty of Arab states that completely lack jewish populations do to the eradication of the jewish people of the lands.

I can't see the problem with the jewish people having their own land.

However, i do not see this happening. I can't imagine the Jewish populations forcing a exodus of all the palestinian people from their lands.

2. Borders: Permanent borders between the two states will be agreed to on the basis of the June 4, 1967 lines, UN resolutions and the Arab peace initiative (known as the Saudi initiative).

The 67 lines are apart of cease fire agreement. I have a slight problem with using them as future borders depending on what they are based..

 

[pax]

Just making sure you caught it...

A few towns have been cut thru already legion and the fence isnt done yet... Its not smart and Im glad a solid cross current of israeli society and in high ranks of the military are criticising it.

I dont see a problem with jews having their own land either legion... bit irrelevant of the fence discussion isnt it?

 

[ByteMe]

This is all just wasting time (getting people killed). I think you all realize that there will be a big fight. Israel should just take it all... let the fight start now... then it will be over sooner.

 

[Legion]

A few towns have been cut thru already legion and the fence isnt done yet...

Is this a problem? Does it prevent transportation through the town? on which side of the "green line" is it?

Did you read what i posted from the Israeli Foriegn Ministry?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0o170

http://www.seamzone.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/default.htm

Its not smart and Im glad a solid cross current of israeli society and in high ranks of the military are criticising it.

There are also a great deal who support it. Most admit if not for the actions of the palestinians and their propaganda there would be no reason for it.

http://www.honestreporting.com/relentless/new_version/index.html

I dont see a problem with jews having their own land either legion... bit irrelevant of the fence discussion isnt it?

No really it isn't. Infact this was one argument being pushed by the opposition.

 

[pax]

I cant take the israeli military view all that seriously. Anymore than I dont take the view of official political palestinian voices all that seriously. Did you expect their own web page to criticize their own undertaking?

I look only to third party reviews of whats going on...

Palestinian lives are being seriously disturbed yes. Wouldnt be nearly as much a prob if they built it on the green line as was first proposed. The fence makes sense to keep out a few fanatics but it doesnt make sense if many of the 2 million palestinians are and continue to be disenfranchised or 'without hope' as Ami mentions and assault the fence along dozens if not hundreds of places daily... That wont be manageable.

 

[akira888]

Hey Legion - I have a strategy for the Israelis right here. Kill off most of the Palestinians, throw the rest off of their land, and then annex the West Bank into Israel proper, and finally sit on the land for 90 years or so claiming all the while that Israel has some moral right to that land. Continually deny that the aforementioned genocide took place. Then in the future when Palestinians complain about this state of affairs they will be labeled "hate-mongers" and "psychotic" by people who will at that point know absolutely nothing of Palestinian/Israeli history.

It sure has worked for other nations in the region.

 

[ByteMe]

Hey Legion - I have a strategy for the Israelis right here. Kill off most of the Palestinians, throw the rest off of their land, and then annex the West Bank into Israel proper, and finally sit on the land for 90 years or so claiming all the while that Israel has some moral right to that land. Continually deny that the aforementioned genocide took place. Then in the future when Palestinians complain about this state of affairs they will be labeled "hate-mongers" and "psychotic" by people who will at that point know absolutely nothing of Palestinian/Israeli history.

It sure has worked for other nations in the region.

Bing! We have a winner!

 

[pax]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/379370.html

down to 6% from 15%... guess some people in the israeli gov feel changes can be done...

 

[epicstruggle]

Hey Legion - I have a strategy for the Israelis right here. Kill off most of the Palestinians, throw the rest off of their land, and then annex the West Bank into Israel proper, and finally sit on the land for 90 years or so claiming all the while that Israel has some moral right to that land. Continually deny that the aforementioned genocide took place. Then in the future when Palestinians complain about this state of affairs they will be labeled "hate-mongers" and "psychotic" by people who will at that point know absolutely nothing of Palestinian/Israeli history.

It sure has worked for other nations in the region.

Isnt this what the Palestinians wish they could do to.

later,
epic

 

[akira888]

Hey Legion - I have a strategy for the Israelis right here. Kill off most of the Palestinians, throw the rest off of their land, and then annex the West Bank into Israel proper, and finally sit on the land for 90 years or so claiming all the while that Israel has some moral right to that land. Continually deny that the aforementioned genocide took place. Then in the future when Palestinians complain about this state of affairs they will be labeled "hate-mongers" and "psychotic" by people who will at that point know absolutely nothing of Palestinian/Israeli history.

It sure has worked for other nations in the region.

Isnt this what the Palestinians wish they could do to.

Surely some of them (Hamas, Hezbullah), yes, I suppose. I wasn't arguing however that Israel would come to this. I trying to make a point that unfortunately only people who had read another thread would possibly be able to comprehend. Intertextuality as a post-structuralist literary theorist would say.

That's all I'll say, at least for now.

 

[epicstruggle]

Surely some of them (Hamas, Hezbullah), yes, I suppose. I wasn't arguing however that Israel would come to this. I trying to make a point that unfortunately only people who had read another thread would possibly be able to comprehend. Intertextuality as a post-structuralist literary theorist would say.

That's all I'll say, at least for now.

Why do say israelies should kill all of the other side. In my opinion its maybe 10-20% of the extremists from either side who really dont want any sort of mutual peace. People just have to understand that the palestinians are ruled/govermnened by unelected brutes. They have no choice in the matter, and so they shouldnt be overly punished for the stupidity of say arafat, hamas, et al.

later,
epic
ps i should add here that im usually on the side of israel. And feel that the fence thing is a good idea, but maybe the line could be shifted in some areas to ease tensions.