Scientology
- Thread starter K.I.L.E.R
- Start date
Is not about inheriting the sins of A&E. Its what we don't inherit.
A&E fall from grace, that is they lost the free gift that God has given them. Since A&E lost that gift from their disobedience, that gift/grace can't be inherited by the subsequent generation of human. But when God condemned A&E and the snake, God did already has plan for returning the human.
Even with such manner, it still isn't good enough for some people to repent and stop doing evil. Look at the number of Catholic priests that were involved in scandal.
Look at Noah story, God willing to destroy the wicked, but God also made sure the few that loves him are saved. The same with Christ, Christ will saves anyone that loves him, Christ hasn't condem anyone, but at the end of time, he will.
BTW, the Noah Story, even most Christian would pass it as a tall story, but since Christ used an example of Noah in his preaching, I don't think its a tall story. The same with prophet Jonah.
Its not what we have done that should be the questions, but to whom did we do it to ? Every sins that we commit is the act of disobidience towards God. We are human, finite being, we could never paid back for our sins to God an infinite being.
That's why you need Christ, since he is God and man, to paid back for our sins, he did so with his blood by dying on the cross.
Yes it is also an example to follow, in Christianity there is no greater love than to give up your life for the person you love. That what Christ does, Christians are expected to follow.
MrsSkywalker
Newcomer
Um, no it's not. Man cannot hear God's holy name.
If God was only love, then He wouldn't have anger or spite. And He wouldn't obliterate any of His creation simply because they were acting of the free will He gave them.
I believe it is the same.
Here the passage of that quote:
Who teached you God is only love ? Love and mercy of God is promoted alot by Christians and its true that God is love and God is mercy, but to say God is only love is not right. God is holy and God is just and God is good.
There are even Christians that belive that there can be no hell because God is love. But that's never is the teaching, as you argued for yourself.
I already told you the difference. What you believe is your own.
zidane1strife
Banned
I don't think so, I think it is us who've distorted the teachings and are seeing what we want to see in them.
I don't see sins as such, evil is failure, we were made imperfect beings, thus we are bound to fail most of the time... Furthermore as mortals we are only allowed to at most do harm to others for a short period of time...
Is causing pain to others, is harming others an unforgivable act for which a concious mind could ever be perpetually condemned? From our limited perspective it seems as though harm upon others might get to the point of unforgiveness... but from an omniscient perspective, It is my believe, that the villain within the story... the one who played the villain in this short play.... who's actions are so petty... would be allowed to repent at the end, for such minor deeds...
To an ant, a pebble is such an immense object, but viewed from our perspective it is insignificant... I believe such is what happens in the real world, the wrong deeds we and our brethren do... seem so important and of such great magnitude to us... but for God who sees this, as the minor actions of inferior beings upon one another over a short period of time... it is but a trivial thing...
Pain is part of life, evil must be there, it is here to make us better, by allowing us to experience life at its fullest and receive it as God intended for us...
The story of the prodigal son, is but an example of this... Those who do wrong, although they've failed, made a mistake, they are allowed to repent, and to return to the grace of God...
This is unlike the world of men, were a single mistake, even a simple one, can send you into a world of misery and torment....
I still think that event's main purpose was to serve as an example of enduring suffering for others, and for giving oneself entirely in love... more than to atone for our sins, For we have always been forgiven... It is a physical representation of that forgiveness, of that love, so that we may understand it better, and see an example of love for us to follow...
Then you are missing the core tenet of the religion called Christianity.
zidane1strife
Banned
The core tenet, the basic principle of christianity... are the teachings of christ, love to God, and love to thy neighbor, and faith...
This point is quite clear in the Christian teaching, Christians that doesn't belive in hell are the ones that distorting the teachings.
Here read it for your self, from Matthew gospel, the word that Son of Man spoke for the final judgement.
That should be straight forward to read.
God is omniscient, nothing is hidden in his sight, nothing is insignificant. God is just, no good deed go unrewarded and no evil go unpunished.
And from the above passage: "I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me."
So our bad deeds to our brethen are not insignificant to God.
What you said is right, except in following that example, you are atoning for your sins. Though for Christians the death of Christ means so much more. Christ life, death and resurrection is everything for Christians, and its remembered every day in many churches.
No, that's the philosophy and morals of Christianity.
The mechanics of Christianity demand that the individual accept Jesus as their ticket to heaven. The core belief, particularly of fundamentalist christians, is that deeds and thoughts won't get you into heaven--faith alone will. (i.e. believing that Jesus is: 1) divine; 2) died on the cross as atonement for their sins; 3) rose again to ascend into heaven.)
Believing that God is all about love and leading a moral life does not make you a Christian, it makes you a moral person that believes in a supreme being. Accepting the gospel of Christ does make you a Christian(and is the only way).
Romans 10:9. Research that in Greek.
From the Matthew gospel I quoted above, I just don't see where they got 'faith alone will save you'. See things like this distorted the teaching of Christianity.
You are a Christian if you're baptised in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Once you're baptised you're a Christian.
You don't need to go to Greek.
If you believe in him, you do what he said. If not you will be the hypocrites that Jesus spoke of through out the Gospels.
See this is fundementalist view, they just took out one point from the scripture, and fail to see the next line, and distorted the teaching to only several points.
We could go back and forth on this. Were they righteous because they were kind to their neighbors? Or were they kind to their neighbors because they were righteous?
I fail to accept that baptism alone is the ticket. You could take that to the extreme and baptise unwilling participants--but that doesn't make them Christian. (It more likely makes them Morman
)
Beside my own logic:
Of course, the bold is my construct, and it doesn't clearly state what I'm contending--it does state that more than simply sprinkling is required.
One of the backgrounding tenets of christianity is that we're all imbued with free will and consequently a concious choice is required at some age. More fundamentalist sects don't allow acceptance and baptism until an 'age of consent'(before then, kids are considered innocent); wereas the Catholic church has a 'confirmation' when the person gets of age.
Of course, the new testament is rife with literal contradictions concerning these things. The quote above shows that you need faith and baptism; but its not clear how the thief on Christ's right hand side at the crucifixion managed to get baptism yet was still afforded a place in heaven.
I fail to accept that baptism alone is the ticket. You could take that to the extreme and baptise unwilling participants--but that doesn't make them Christian. (It more likely makes them Morman
)Beside my own logic:
John 3:5 said:
Of course, the bold is my construct, and it doesn't clearly state what I'm contending--it does state that more than simply sprinkling is required.
One of the backgrounding tenets of christianity is that we're all imbued with free will and consequently a concious choice is required at some age. More fundamentalist sects don't allow acceptance and baptism until an 'age of consent'(before then, kids are considered innocent); wereas the Catholic church has a 'confirmation' when the person gets of age.
Of course, the new testament is rife with literal contradictions concerning these things. The quote above shows that you need faith and baptism; but its not clear how the thief on Christ's right hand side at the crucifixion managed to get baptism yet was still afforded a place in heaven.
zidane1strife
Banned
Well, my thoughts on eternal punishment.... I see it as if I went to a kindergarten and took the child teasing the others and beat him to a pulp, and then ran over him with my car... and then I would take the kids that played together to the local baskin robbins, and bought them Ice cream...
It simply does not compute...
Our minds are so simple... compared to what they could be... simpler than a child compared to an adult...
We are given a limited amount of time, limited amounts of knowledge, and limited capabilities... we have inherited many defects in the foundations of our beings... from our ancestors, primitive structures still remain in our minds...
We are blind asked not to fall or stumble in a field full of bumps, rocks, and obstacles... I cannot see.... being punished for falling and failing to get back on one's feet...
This is such a short simple limited existence, how can our mistakes be punished for an eternity?
I know if I were killed our tortured for the entirety of my life till my death... I would forgive, and see it as the mistakes of someone of my kin... I could not see him being perpetually tortured for erring for an instant in eternity...
What is the worst we can do to others? Harm them for an instant... Is a punch enough to be sentenced to life in prison.... NO? Then I ask you is an instant of harm towards others... enough to be sentenced for an eternity of suffering? I do not see it as such...
Those scriptures, are there to keep some from abandoning faith... for some would find it difficult to accept a God that would take back those who've harmed them.... For there are some for whom... just like a child who's toy is taken from him feels like an unspeakable crime/injury has been done to him.... there are some who cannot see he who harmed them or their loved ones being forgiven by God... and given eternal life...
These blind people, are not to blame, for they are limited, just like children are limited, and the most insignificant of things... can be the most important thing in the world to them... they need to be told what is necessary for them to take the path God has set before them...
Humans have not yet become advanced enough...
You're right, baptism alone is not the ticket to Heaven, but a first step. But you start being Christian by being baptised.
Sacrament of Confirmation is different from baptism. You are baptised first than received confirmation. In the Laying of the Hand you are annointed with the oil of God. You received the Holy Spirit basically. All Christians are expected to receive this sacrament.
But I agree with what you said.
Christian is a journey, starts in having faith in Christ and repent by getting baptised. There are many steps to overcome and then the final one being the ressurection of the body and the judgement. Once you passed all that, then you're trully Christian.
If I say to you, to learn how to to be a Catholic tomorrow and be a Catholic eventually, what would you do ?
Well its not too late to open your eyes.
Because you have offended an infinite being and doesn't repent, eternity is not even enough, because Human are a finite being incapable of producing something that is infinite value to pay for those mistakes.
There is hell than there is purgotory. Purgotory is only temporal punishment.
Like I said before what you do to others is what you do to God.
There are other passage that deals with example you give. Even as a child you are ask to forgive others.
God has told you what is necessary steps to eternal life, and look what you did ? You distort them. I give you the scriptures reference and you said, "Those scriptures, are there to keep some from abandoning faith..." Distorting it. That passage made it quite clear what you need to do.
God is omniscient, God knows what we are capable of. God created us for his glory.