SCE Joins Stanford's Folding@home Program (B3D ID=32377)

Most PCs can be turned off or go into hibernation if they were not running F@H clients and the owner were determined to move up the ranks. Business PCs included. Most modern PCs also eat power when the CPU is running at full tilt, vs executing idle instructions. The DC projects are marketed as though idle cycles are free. That might have been the case years ago, it is no longer the case!

Lastly, I think there are some other DC projects people can join that do more real science. I've still yet to hear or read from a scientist unconnected with the project who writes persuasively on the merits of the project in a way that justifies the power consumption used. PS3s are not used "for minesweeper", they are going to be left on overnight or all week for some participants chasing folding stats. This is a real and significant cost and the overall benefit to humanity is not discussed by anyone, it is always just assumed that you're "curing cancer" or some bunk like that.

 

I was preparing to justify this with a reply, but it seems you're more interrested in pushing your agenda and your opinion as the ideal upon which everything should be based.

It is your opinion that F@H is a waste of time. It is your opinion that it is a waste of power. It is your opinion that it is a waste of money. It is your opinion that nothing useful has ever become of the data resulting from F@H and other projects.

I won't sugar-coat it. I have a heavy contempt for people who think only their opinion matters, and that their opinion is equal to fact.

I won't continue this discussion with you further.

 

I question your ability to evaluate the scientific worth of F@H's research output. And if F@H isn't doing "real science" than what is it doing? I guess running MD simulations isn't real science. Someone please call up Lawrence Livermoore and ask for their science license back. I mean, 45 published journal papers, none of it real science, eh?

Do you realize how much nonsense your "overall benefit to humanity" argument is? Who determines this? What's the overall benefit to humanity of all the power wasted by digital entertainment? Couldn't that money be invested in Africa and people be content with reading books?

If F@H gets lucky as 100,000 PS3 users join, the annual total US power consumption increase will be 175 million KWh. Annual US consumption by all sectors is 4 trillion KWh. Meaning, a 0.0043% increase. Now, go calculate how much power would be saved if just 1 million households switched from incandecsent/halogen lights.

We have far more pressing energy issues in this world than to worry about DC producing "worthless" science results. And pardon me, but how many biotech journal papers have you published, and if zero, how are you fit to judge the scientific worth of F@H publications if you are not a specialized in the field of proteomics?

 

Such a standard that is. But, sorry, something beats nothing. Show us unconnected scientists who write persuasively that it's worthless. Got any of those? You know, DC projects have been picked precisely because they are hugely tough nuts to crack.

 

From the first link:

"A researcher I spoke to said that the basis for the 30x folding power, a very math intense process, is a $1000 PC you'd buy today."

It seems that researcher isn't very good at his job. A $1000 PC you would buy today would most likely have a fast dual core CPU in it just like those Intel Macs. So far from being "30 times faster than a modern $1000 PC" Its more like 11 times faster. In DP its probably more like twice as fast and in comparison to a quad core in DP its probably roughly equivilent.

And of course thats not accounting for the GPU capabilities that you could get in a $1000 PC. Such a price could easily get you an X1900XT 256MB which would fold at least twice as fast as a PS3.

Im certainly not discounting the huge benefit PS3 will bring because of its mass production and standardised hardware as its unarguably faster than your average 3 year old dell office PC thats running F@H but IMO statements like "30x faster than a modern $1000 PC" are just hype mongering and require a counter point of view. Its also worth noting than an X1900XT 256MB is less than half the cost of a PS3.

 

I think the point is also: PS3 will bring in a new crowd of Folding people... not normally associated with the existing pool. So comparisons with top of the line hardware in supercomputing centers and home made PCs may not quite express the impact. Unfortunately we also don't know whether these guys will keep their PS3s on/idled long enough to complete the assigned work units. I guess that's why Stanford assumed only 10,000 (1% of 1 million) in his comment.

 

I'll for one try to join the Beyond3d team from next weekend on ... Would be nice if the 'wait for remote play' feature were compatible with this! Then I could leave the PS3 on during the day doing folding work and take it over with my PSP remotely for other stuff when I need to (for instance to show off to my colleagues)

 

That seems like random confabulation, the resources of the earth far surpass what most think. Even serial murderers, and serial rapists are performing a vital function to the workings of this here earth. Why else would the mob, cannibals, and prostitutes often get away with what they do, and blessed with countless progeny or descendants even if hunted to extinction they come back again and again.

 

I think the DC projects have an obligation to provide independent scientific evaluations of their projects to ensure they are not taking advantage of their participants. The DC community is 99% about stat-whoring, team vs team, "I can crunch faster than you can". Very few people bother to ask where their higher electricity bill is going, and compare this cost to donating the dollars to projects and charities that clearly save lives Right Now, rather than just offering vague promise.

People are not nearly skeptical enough when it comes to signing up to distributed computing projects and nobody asks the project leaders hard questions. Show me a single external analysis of why Folding @ Home is the best use for umpty-million kilowatts of (greenhouse gas producing) power capacity? There are none! All they have to do is think up banner advert slogans such as "finding a cure one PC at a time" and people jump for the "feel good" without checking closely what the project does. $10 a month of electricity could sponsor the education of a child in africa, or be donated to a vaccination program that can immunize kids against smallpox for $1 a shot!

I don't think it is the obligation of the (evidently few) skeptics to prove folding is overstating the science that it is doing, it is the obligation of the program to justify to the community, and in a deep manner, why they deserve research dollars more than other worthy programs. I've read the entire folding site and they fail to offer any cost benefit analysis. They don't even discuss the costs of the compute array, the assumption (at the least, implied) is that this distributed folding computation is somehow "free"! At least for the PS3 array this is absolutely not the case. If you're not playing a game, you can turn off 250 watts of power, but not if you want to be part of folding.

I've asked over email several biochemists and drug company scientists (a cousin doing post-grad internship got access to them late last year) and none of them were aware of any new drug developments made possible by protein folding projects and bear in mind there are 100s of drug and vaccine developments made every week around the world. When I see the sloganeering and rah-rah of the DC folding participants in forums and team promotion sites it seems to me that they tell each other they are saving people from cancer, finding cures for the incurable. So few grasp the project, and know how much it costs them in dollar terms (to say nothing of greenhouse gases), and what other more widely understandable charities might benefit from their cash.

Of course if people don't actually care about real science, or saving lives, if DC club participation is mainly about competition over ranks and stats, then good luck to them. Perhaps the project should be marketed differently: Join a folding @ home team, show off your rig.

 

Onlooker1, would you be able to explain the significance (or otherwise ) of the papers published here:
http://folding.stanford.edu/papers.html

...and the awards given to them by peers ?
http://folding.stanford.edu/awards.html

Here's an old article about some early validations:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/10/021022070813.htm

In your opinion, are they all hot air ?

 

I think if onlooker1 didn't get it after post #38, he's a lost cause.

 

Folding has many:
Results http://folding.stanford.edu/results.html
Papers http://folding.stanford.edu/papers.html
Awards http://folding.stanford.edu/awards.html

It is advancing:
- the understanding of folding;
- the understanding of some diseases;
- the knowledge about Distributed Computing at planetary scalle.

Good enough for me

 

is turning this on ps3 the only thing we can do to help this org??? or what other ways can we help them???

 

I'm going to save lives and heat my studio at the same time.

Sweet.

 

Have I mentioned team 32377 yet? That would be Beyond3D's team. You know, the site that has nutured, succored, and educated all of you over a long period of time. . . . We welcome our PS3 folders with open arms.

Should I offer an "Xbox360 sucks!" post for every 10,000 PS3 FAH points?

 

Okay I'll join your stupid team.

What do I do? Just enter the team number?

Make this easy. Dumb it down for console owners. Like Mechwarrior.

 

32377 in the team field. That should take care of it.

 

Utilities are included in my apartment. So sign me up for running Folding 24/7, when I'm not using the PS3...unless it gets too warm in the summer.

 

Gamevideos has a video of the PS3 Folding app.
http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/10122

I wonder if the music comes with it. Or just the sound effects. And it does look like you can join a team on this PS3 version.

 

This is really neat. Just the thought of an gaming machine being used for a better purpose. Download is up b.t.w.