Saturn the last of the 2D powerhouse?

[notAFanB]

Rigtht just thought I'd seperate the Saturn technical discussion part out ot avoid junking the DC history Thread:

Sorry , i souldn't have quoted you , because i thought you were looking for facts about 2D performance of both Psone and Saturn.

...

To answer briefly, saturn was (one of) the last machine designed to be 2D gameplay oriented. That explain all the 2D features included (such as all kind of rotation , rotating playfileds , 5 backgrounds scrolling all with (Enlargement, scaling, rotating, reduction effects), etc...)

yes, I'm am well aware of that and the 2D focus of the feature set of the Saturn. My question is and can be rephrased as. Which factor most contributed to the Saturns superiority in 2D titles and which could not be reproduced (in an manner of speaking) ont eh PS1 and other architeures of the Day?

take away the memory advantage and what do you have? (speaking hypothectically here). what is is weaker in?

When you have members claimng that even the DC doesn;t match up in terms of 2D effects you have to ask this quetion.

EDIT:

now that I've brought this up, that a look at Grandia ont he Saturn --> PS1 for example of the difference in performence of the 2 platforms. )loads of slowdown in the PS1 version, from memory) what's going on here do you think?

EDIT2:

a brief summary of the spec sheet for reference

Processors (8)

Two Hitachi SH2 32-bit RISC @ 28.6MHz
One Hitachi SH1 32-bit RISC
VDP 1 32-bit video display processor
VDP 2 32-bit video display processor
Saturn Control Unit (SCU)
Motorola 68EC000 sound processor
DSP sound processor


Memory

2 Megabytes (16 megabits) RAM
1.54 Megabytes (12 megabits) VRAM (Video RAM)
540 Kilobytes (4 megabits) Audio RAM
540 Kilobytes (4 megabits) CD-ROM Cache


Video

VDP 1 32-bit video display processor
sprite, polygon, and geometry engine
dual 256KB frame buffers for rotation and scaling effects
Texture Mapping
Goraud Shading
512KB cache for textures
VDP 2 32-bit background and scroll plane video display processor
background engine
5 simulataneous scrolling backgrounds
2 simultaneous rotating playfields
200,000 Texture Mapped Polygons/Second
500,000 Flat Shaded Polygons/Second
up to 60 frames per second animation
24-bit true color graphics
16. Million Available Colors
320x224, 640x224, and 720x576 Resolution


Audio

Yamaha 24-bit Digital Signal Processor @ 22.6MHz
Motorola 68EC000 sound processor @ 11.3MHz
32 PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) Channels
8 FM (Frequency Modulation) Channels
44.1 khz Sampling Rate


Storage

CD-ROM (2X)
320 Kilobytes/Second Transfer Speed
Audio CD Compatible
CD+G Compatible
CD+EG Compatible
CD Single (8 cm CD) Compatible
Optional - Video CD, Photo CD, EBook, Digital Karaoke
Optional - 512KB Memory Cartridges for game save


Input/Output

High speed serial communications port
Internal 32-bit Expansion port
Internal Multi AV Port for optional Video CD (MPEG) adapter
Composite Video/Stereo (Standard)
NTSC RF (Optional)
S-Video Compatible (Optional)
RGB Compatible (Optional)
HDTV Compatible (Optional)
Analog Control Pad (x2)

 

[Farid]

EDIT:

now that I've brought this up, that a look at Grandia ont he Saturn --> PS1 for example of the difference in performence of the 2 platforms. )loads of slowdown in the PS1 version, from memory) what's going on here do you think?

Grandia is mainly a 3D game , only the characters (and few objects) were sprites (very small so there's no differences on the ram "side")

The slowdown of grandia were definitely due to what we can call trivially a "Crappy port"

 

[notAFanB]

ok, bad example (my bad), but I cannot think of one (port or otherwise) which cannot be mainly attributted to the RAM difference between the 2. any takers?

 

[Farid]

...but I cannot think of one (port or otherwise) which cannot be mainly attributted to the RAM difference between the 2. any takers?

It's hard to find a good example of saturn/psone 2D game that has not ram has main difference, because all the games(2D) that used to be on both Psone/Saturn were Cps-1-2 or neo geo port, those obvously didn't used saturn specific 2D features.

So if you need an example of a powerfull saturn 2D game , you need to look for a "saturn ONLY" 2D game.
I don't remember right so i won' give example , maybe others members that are fans of sega hardware will find a few examples.

If you look specially for a saturn/psone comparison , the best example will be a native 2D saturn game that have been ported to psone , to see wich featured lacked on the psone version.

 

[akira888]

NotAfanB:
The problem with the PS1's 2D capabilities was the lack of video RAM (1MB) compared to the Saturn with the 4 MB RAM cart (5.54 MB). None of Saturn's 2D "features" such as scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds, and rotation could not be done on PSX, obviously.

Whoever said that DC is a 2D slouch compared to Saturn is, putting it mildly, misguided. In fact the DC, thanks to its hardware overdraw elimination, is arguably the true 2D workhorse of this era. I'd would like to see Saturn run GGX at high-res with no slowdown.

 

[Tagrineth]

NotAfanB:
The problem with the PS1's 2D capabilities was the lack of video RAM (1MB) compared to the Saturn with the 4 MB RAM cart (5.54 MB). None of Saturn's 2D "features" such as scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds, and rotation could not be done on PSX, obviously.

Whoever said that DC is a 2D slouch compared to Saturn is, putting it mildly, misguided. In fact the DC, thanks to its hardware overdraw elimination, is arguably the true 2D workhorse of this era. I'd would like to see Saturn run GGX at high-res with no slowdown.

It probably could, if it supported the right colour depth at that res.

I mean, look at the two Capcom VS. games on the Saturn. If you have one player do an Assist while the other uses a Super, you have four full-sized sprites on screen and animated at once, with no slowdown at all... and I don't even remember offhand how many background planes the two VS. games used at once.

 

[I.S.T.]

NotAfanB:
The problem with the PS1's 2D capabilities was the lack of video RAM (1MB) compared to the Saturn with the 4 MB RAM cart (5.54 MB). None of Saturn's 2D "features" such as scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds, and rotation could not be done on PSX, obviously.

Whoever said that DC is a 2D slouch compared to Saturn is, putting it mildly, misguided. In fact the DC, thanks to its hardware overdraw elimination, is arguably the true 2D workhorse of this era. I'd would like to see Saturn run GGX at high-res with no slowdown.

It probably could, if it supported the right colour depth at that res.

I mean, look at the two Capcom VS. games on the Saturn. If you have one player do an Assist while the other uses a Super, you have four full-sized sprites on screen and animated at once, with no slowdown at all... and I don't even remember offhand how many background planes the two VS. games used at once.

Those games have to use RAM carts though. DC versions wouldn't need that.

 

[jvd]

No those two games do not have to use the ram cart .


Even with the ram cart the only diffrence is extra ram. The saturn needed to be capable of producing those graphics in the first place .



Examples of great 2d on the saturn

Clockwork knight , bug , mr bones , nights into dreams , capcom vs games , and there were a few over head space ship shooters can't remember the names will get back to u .

That show off what the system can do .

Yes the dreamcast could produce better 2d graphics than the saturn. But considering the age diffrence between the two it wasn't that much of a leap. If even a leap. Since the saturn the jumps in 2d have gotten smaller and smaller .

Does the xbox even have 2d abilitys or does it use the 2d core of the geforce to do 2d graphics ?

 

[I.S.T.]

No those two games do not have to use the ram cart .


Even with the ram cart the only diffrence is extra ram. The saturn needed to be capable of producing those graphics in the first place .



Examples of great 2d on the saturn

Clockwork knight , bug , mr bones , nights into dreams , capcom vs games , and there were a few over head space ship shooters can't remember the names will get back to u .

That show off what the system can do .

Yes the dreamcast could produce better 2d graphics than the saturn. But considering the age diffrence between the two it wasn't that much of a leap. If even a leap. Since the saturn the jumps in 2d have gotten smaller and smaller .

Does the xbox even have 2d abilitys or does it use the 2d core of the geforce to do 2d graphics ?

Then why was X-Men VS Street Fighter bundled with a RAM cart?

Here's a link to back me up: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/saturn/review/R7856.html

 

[jvd]

I'm sorry but where does it say anything about it being needed to run ?

Perhaps I am wrong and I will admit it

But the other two games they mention

Marvel Super Heroes, X-Men: COTA

Both look better on the saturn and do not need the 4 meg cart as it came out a year later then they did


edit also its a reader review . How do we know he didn't get an import of it (pretty sure that is the only way you could get it ) with the 4 meg card / import reader . It was a 3rd party deal that would save games , unlock region codes and was the 4 meg expansion

 

[I.S.T.]

Later today I'll go look up one of my old EGM mags. It said that it was required to run it. I only have about 5 so it'll be easy to find.

 

[jvd]

Later today I'll go look up one of my old EGM mags. It said that it was required to run it. I only have about 5 so it'll be easy to find.

cool it was to long ago to remember everything and way to many drugs ago

 

[I.S.T.]

I found a web link in a search.


http://www.ex.org/ex/3.1/42-game_xvsf.html I'll still dig up said mag later. Right now my mom is taking a nap in my room, lol.

 

[akira888]

jvd:

Most modern graphics engines (ie PS1 and later) treat sprites as if they were two screen aligned triangles; there really isn't a special "2D core." You can verify this by running ePSXe and turning filtering on in a 2D game, you will see bilinear filtering artifacts along the edges of the sprite as well as along the main diagonal due to texels being sampled outside of the texture.

As for Xmen vs SF being better on Saturn the Saturn did have, without the RAM cart, 1.5 vs 1 MB of VRAM on PSX. Excluding the frame buffer (~300 KB for double buffered at 320x240x16b) that's around 70 percent more texture RAM.

Tagrineth:

As bad as PS1 Xmen games were the assist option was there (albeit mutiliated), so it did run fine with three sprites on screen at once, at least.

 

[Fafalada]

Most modern graphics engines (ie PS1 and later) treat sprites as if they were two screen aligned triangles

Actually many of the modern chips have support for "sprite" primitives - screen aligned quads(PS2 and XBox do). Not really the same meaning as what sprite was defined as in the past, but anyway. And yeah, they are rendered by the same pipeline that is used for polygons.

Yes the dreamcast could produce better 2d graphics than the saturn. But considering the age diffrence between the two it wasn't that much of a leap.

Given that pretty much all 2d releases for the past 5 years have been strictly low budget that claim has no real evidence to support it. Except the 2d market decline in itself...

 

[Tagrineth]

The Capcom VS games on the Saturn needed the 4MB RAM cart to run, yes...

But the thing is...

RAM carts do NOTHING to help processing power.

If Saturn had the memory, it could certainly run Guilty Gear X, considering it can run four animated sprites + animated background all at once in both VS games. Memory is the only barrier Saturn has to running GGX, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Crazyace]

jvd:

As for Xmen vs SF being better on Saturn the Saturn did have, without the RAM cart, 1.5 vs 1 MB of VRAM on PSX. Excluding the frame buffer (~300 KB for double buffered at 320x240x16b) that's around 70 percent more texture RAM.

It's a little more even than that - as VDP1 is hardwired for 2x 256k drawbuffers, and 512k for both textures and sprite command blocks.. PS1 probally recovers about 200-300k there - but on the other hand VDP2 has the extra 512k for bg maps and tilesets..

The big hit for the PS is normally building the display lists in main ram.. This will often eat into the memory that would otherwise be used for animation data in 2D games..

( Most of the 2d game reviews would often give the Saturn version the victory due to the number of animation frames rather than any particular frame update.. )

 

[Fox5]

No those two games do not have to use the ram cart .


Even with the ram cart the only diffrence is extra ram. The saturn needed to be capable of producing those graphics in the first place .



Examples of great 2d on the saturn

Clockwork knight , bug , mr bones , nights into dreams , capcom vs games , and there were a few over head space ship shooters can't remember the names will get back to u .

That show off what the system can do .

Yes the dreamcast could produce better 2d graphics than the saturn. But considering the age diffrence between the two it wasn't that much of a leap. If even a leap. Since the saturn the jumps in 2d have gotten smaller and smaller .

Does the xbox even have 2d abilitys or does it use the 2d core of the geforce to do 2d graphics ?

I dunno, I was always far more impressed by dreamcast's 2d than by saturn's....
ikaruga and that little mini game in illbleed looked beyond what saturn could do.(especially that little mini game, used features the saturn couldn't) Then again, I consider mischief makers and yoshi's story on n64(and that goemon game) to be better looking 2d games than a lot of the saturn 2d games.(even if they are prerendered)
BTW, how about gamecube's 2d power? Warioware MegaPartyGames and the Resident Evil games(and ikaruga) certainly aren't worse than dreamcast. Ok, maybe warioware, it does look like it could be done in flash, and that's at its best.

 

[nobie]

Geez anyone who thinks any 2D Saturn game could not be done on any competent modern hardware is dreaming. The Saturn was nice for its time, but come on it's ten years old.

 

[Sonic]

I guess it really depends on what you consider 2d on the Saturn. A lot of the 3d games were nothing more than hacked 2d games with a z perspective. I guess it can be an arguement that say VF1 or even VF2 shows the Saturn's 2d power. But when considering traditional 2d games the Saturn was far superior than the PS1. A lot of it is because of RAM but also a lot of it was because the Saturn's hardware was designed for 2d from the ground up. Capcom favored the Saturn hardware over the PS1 hardware when it came to 2d because it allowed them to get it much closer to the arcade as possible.

An example is Street Fighter Alpha 2. It was much nicer on the Saturn than the PS1. There are many examples and one only has to look to Japan for some of the finest 2d games to come out on the Saturn.

I will admit this, I am biased when it comes to this topic. I would tend to believe a lot of us are biased, but I will admit it being a SEGA employee and a fan. Simple as that really.