Saddam Arrested

[o.d.]

If this fear helps your government improve then great (and your government should be afraid). I don't expect we would invade anytime soon. But given another 9/11 then all bets are off.

I think you missed my point..... I honestly don't think that the US will attack Saudi Arabia (at this point). I was referring to how other countries (which include my own) feel about the US.

Are we in agreement that the US, in the eyes of the majority of the world, does not maintain its 'we are the good guys' country these days? I would hope you would say yes.

Now, having said that, why is it so? People in other countries do not trust the US anymore.... and that is because you act like a bunch of gorillas that lash out before you think. Or rather, your gov't thinks and then the masses blindly follow.

It is interesting to see it actually..... One of the greatest things about the US is its ability to 'get together', but we can also see this as a weakness.... you blindly follow, taking what your ruler says at face value and do not listen to logic or history (proven facts).

Lastly, I feel the need to comment on the tone of your post..... it just feels like you are trying to be threatening.... I mean your nonchalant way of saying 'If this fear helps your government improve then great (and your government should be afraid). ' is really wrong.... do you want to 'terrorize' the rest of the world into submission?

I feel your 'fear' is showing through....

 

[ByteMe]

I think you missed my point..... I honestly don't think that the US will attack Saudi Arabia (at this point). I was referring to how other countries (which include my own) feel about the US.

Are we in agreement that the US, in the eyes of the majority of the world, does not maintain its 'we are the good guys' country these days? I would hope you would say yes.

No.

Now, having said that, why is it so? People in other countries do not trust the US anymore.... and that is because you act like a bunch of gorillas that lash out before you think. Or rather, your gov't thinks and then the masses blindly follow.

It is interesting to see it actually..... One of the greatest things about the US is its ability to 'get together', but we can also see this as a weakness.... you blindly follow, taking what your ruler says at face value and do not listen to logic or history (proven facts).

Lastly, I feel the need to comment on the tone of your post..... it just feels like you are trying to be threatening.... I mean your nonchalant way of saying 'If this fear helps your government improve then great (and your government should be afraid). ' is really wrong.... do you want to 'terrorize' the rest of the world into submission?

I feel your 'fear' is showing through....

If we can "terrorize" any government that has a record of human rights abuses, supports terrorists' then YES we want to . There is a chance that said government will improve for fear of what the USA might do. Do you think North Korea would attack South korea if the USA wasn't there? Hell yes. But the presence of the USA puts fear into them with what we would do in return.

As far as blindly following our government you are funny. This is the country that many of it's citizens have died for the right to free speech.

What surprises me is your ability to defend a country's government that oppress's it's own people.

The main thing the people in this country fear is the lack of freedom. We will/would scorch the planet before that would happen.

 

[o.d.]

As far as blindly following our government you are funny. This is the country that many of it's citizens have died for the right to free speech.

I will say in the past that the US had an image of a GREAT country, especially when all the nasty things it had done were, basically, hidden from the masses. Now that things are coming out, we are more and more seeing the truth.... the the US is just like everyone else so get off your high horse. Now just quickly if we go back to the inception of America, then yes, people died for freedom of speech, however, that was before/during the creation of America.... are people STILL dying or getting in trouble with the gov't for the right to free speech in America? That doesn't sound right in a country where you, supposedly, have the right to free speech.....

What surprises me is your ability to defend a country's government that oppress's it's own people.

In what way did I say anthing that is defending Saudi Arabia? You are taking my critique of your nation and lashing out again. You need to stop taking it personally.....

The main thing the people in this country fear is the lack of freedom. We will/would scorch the planet before that would happen.

so, when you own country loses freedom somehow, you will blame the world and then you will kill the world...... maybe this is just pidly semantics and not what you really meant, but this shows your attitude.....

people tend to have their beliefs and that is it.

quote:

for those that believe, no explanation is necessary... for those that don't believe, no explanation will suffice .

or something like that.... I think that was from David Blane's DVD

 

[ByteMe]

o.d.,

The USA is still a great country. What other country is constantly sticking it's ass on the line to help others? (on a large scale- and I don't care how many frenchmen you send in they still do not amount of much of a force)

Some of the liberals need to stop and look at what is happening. The people/government realize that no matter what we do we will upset some/many in the world. We also realize that we can/could save many of our own people's lives if we kept to ourselves (and ovwerall keep europe happier). But we don't. The question is why? It is because we care. Sometimes we need to be the strict parent to help these countries that are to blind/stupid/corrupt to realize it.

I believe your country is at the start of some major changes. These changes will be for the better and will mostly be caused by the USA. I hope your people will take advantage of this and do as much for themselves as they can.

 

[o.d.]

all right, the US is still a great country, due in part to the PEOPLE, but not your gov't. There is a lot that is good there.

I don't want to lose our productive conversation, but I just don't believe (of course this is IMHO) that the US is out there to stick their ass on the line for others.... specifically I am referring to the NOW.

I believe that you believe that what the US is doing is because the US cares, but I believe that is just the coating and not the real story nor the 'meat' of why the US is doing these things.

What would you say to your parents if they would beat you and make you do chores that make their lives happier, while making your life miserable? isn't that abuse? Okay, I apologize for the massive over simplification, but I am not sure how to word it properly..... how about this:

If the US is working as a parent, and is being strict, then it would be doing these things for the good of the child, not the good of the parent, but that is NOT the case... at least not completely, maybe the child will get a bit better in the long run, but at the same time the parent is stealing from the child... that is not good parenting..... besides, it has been pointed out there are many other children being bullies and worse etc, but for some reason, this weakened child, with lots of inheritance, is the one that the US decides to be strictest on....

I too have high hopes for my country (I am an optimist). Without major changes, my country is in trouble. just no way around it with a population boom and no growth to handle it. I am not sure the changes are caused by the US (I am not trying to detract from your country, just my honest opinion) but rather caused by the ruling families want to stay in power. If they do not implement changes, then there will be around 15 million people without jobs (over HALF the country) that will be upset and 'doing nothing'... millions of people will flood the non-existent job market in the next five years..... just a soup for trouble there. But my country has definite influence from the US..... kind of a funny situation, a good friend of mine from the US is upset that Mcdonalds in Saudi has beach front property and marble columns in the front....

 

[ByteMe]

Re:

all right, the US is still a great country, due in part to the PEOPLE, but not your gov't. There is a lot that is good there.

I don't want to lose our productive conversation, but I just don't believe (of course this is IMHO) that the US is out there to stick their ass on the line for others.... specifically I am referring to the NOW.

I believe that you believe that what the US is doing is because the US cares, but I believe that is just the coating and not the real story nor the 'meat' of why the US is doing these things.

What would you say to your parents if they would beat you and make you do chores that make their lives happier, while making your life miserable? isn't that abuse? Okay, I apologize for the massive over simplification, but I am not sure how to word it properly..... how about this:

If the US is working as a parent, and is being strict, then it would be doing these things for the good of the child, not the good of the parent, but that is NOT the case... at least not completely, maybe the child will get a bit better in the long run, but at the same time the parent is stealing from the child... that is not good parenting..... besides, it has been pointed out there are many other children being bullies and worse etc, but for some reason, this weakened child, with lots of inheritance, is the one that the US decides to be strictest on....

I too have high hopes for my country (I am an optimist). Without major changes, my country is in trouble. just no way around it with a population boom and no growth to handle it. I am not sure the changes are caused by the US (I am not trying to detract from your country, just my honest opinion) but rather caused by the ruling families want to stay in power. If they do not implement changes, then there will be around 15 million people without jobs (over HALF the country) that will be upset and 'doing nothing'... millions of people will flood the non-existent job market in the next five years..... just a soup for trouble there. But my country has definite influence from the US..... kind of a funny situation, a good friend of mine from the US is upset that Mcdonalds in Saudi has beach front property and marble columns in the front....

I do believe the US is doing what it is doing because we care. The first thing we care about is our own security. Since our security requires the removal of Saddam we take him out. We could just of killed him and let Iraq flounder. But since we care we will NOT let the people of Iraq suffer anymore than can be helped (this also helps our security in the long run).

I am sure some people here think I hate the rest of the world. This is not true and I respect many countries out there for what they have done in the past (and are doing today). One simple example is England. they did not have to get involved in WWII when they did. But they did (took a serious ass beating at first). They put their ass on the line and made a difference. The people of germany I respect because throughout recent history they have always been very inventive and productive. Too bad they were "swayed" a few times by bad apples. France, well they have pretty women.

With as much as the USA and your county are involved together... I expect things will get ugly in your country in the near future... but I assure you the USA will be fighting to help the people setup a new democratic government.

Also, Even tho the USA is a great country it does not mean we are perfect. Somolia and Vietnam come to mind. Vietnam was so bad I can't believe our president LBJ was not hung for his corruptness and ineptness. Somolia was just a plain flat moral failure. But then Clinton was not know for good morals.

What makes the USA great is our system. When we have these cluster fucks our system alows the people to correct them. This might take a few years but we get most of it corrected.

In the past (after WWII) the USA had to make some ugly decisions that greatly effected many countries. The first priority was to stop communisium. We did this. Unfortunitly a few countries got screwed (you could argue that they did it to themselves in many cases). Now that the threat is terrorism... I expect that the USA can/will be able to help the world better. One of the first things that has to happen will be the elimination of the extreme Islamic's. This will never happen 100% but after the islamic people get more exposure to the truth in the world I think the extremists will almost disappear. After china changes (currently underway) there will be no room in the world for dictators or communists. The world will be a much better place.

And I have the privledge of living in the country that will have the greatest impact on getting the world to that point. Just think.... in a hundred years or so the world could completely be some form of democracy. Won't it be a much better place than now? The people in the world (not just USA) that are willing or have put their ass on the line all say you are welcome.

 

[CorwinB]

Sorry for interrupting your ignorant self-satisfied ranting for a second...

One simple example is England. they did not have to get involved in WWII when they did.

BS. Please try not to explain historical matters, because you look like an ignorant ass doing so... FYI, England declared war to Germany (on Sept 3, 1939) because France and England had a mutual assistance treaty with Poland, which was invaded by Nazi Germany. You know (or then again, perhaps you don't considering how the US recently pulled out of an incredible number of international treaties), most countries in the world actually respect their word when they give it...

France, well they have pretty women.

Since you are fond of Americans "dying for free speech", which is kind of sooo 18th century old, ever heard of La Fayette ? You would still be speaking proper English if not for French people... I hope you enjoy your Freedom fries...

but I assure you the USA will be fighting to help the people setup a new democratic government.

And rolling your villages in barbed wires, issuing ID cards in English, humiliating your countrymen and opening fire on your children, but what's a little oppression between friends ?

One of the first things that has to happen will be the elimination of the extreme Islamic's.

Yeah ! Kill ! Kill them all ! Did the thought ever occured to you that it is the exact same rethoric Bin Laden is using with regard to the USA ?

After china changes (currently underway) there will be no room in the world for dictators or communists.

Except the one in the White House, which by then will have dismantled what's left of the US Constitution with Patriot Act 2, 3, 4, 5...

And I have the privledge of living in the country that will have the greatest impact on getting the world to that point.

I've a song for you...
http://www.azlyrics.us/67156[/i]

 

[London Geezer]

As someone said....

Let's hope they find oil in Zimbabwe so the US will do something about Mugabe...

 

[Legion]

As someone said....

Let's hope they find oil in Zimbabwe so the US will do something about Mugabe...

what would it take for Europe to do something about Mugabe?


Is the oil debate trying to creep back into the forefront again? I thought that was properly dispatched months ago.

 

[Vince]

BS. Please try not to explain historical matters, because you look like an ignorant ass doing so... FYI, England declared war to Germany (on Sept 3, 1939) because France and England had a mutual assistance treaty with Poland, which was invaded by Nazi Germany. You know (or then again, perhaps you don't considering how the US recently pulled out of an incredible number of international treaties), most countries in the world actually respect their word when they give it...

Ahh yes! I remember how the French and English just ran to Poland's defense in 1939! How valiently they sought to create a second front in the West to help relieve the Poles!

Oh, wait.. no. They sat behind their futile wall for a year while the Germans took Poland. And then, like 5 months after the French/English decleration, the German's invaded Denmark and Norway!

How ironic is actually is that the first major French <-> German exchange after the toothless "political" decleration of war was around the time the German Schlieffen plan went into action and a little before von Manstein, von Rundstedt and Guderian appeared in France. The more things change, the more they stay the same, yeah?

But thank's for ridiculing him and calling it BS.

 

[CorwinB]

Ahh yes! I remember how the French and English just ran to Poland's defense in 1939! How valiently they sought to create a second front in the West to help relieve the Poles!

Beats waiting until Pearl Harbor, I'd say...

And you are mistaking conduct of the war (which was totally inept, we can agree on this) and declaration of war.

May I also remind you that the original poster who you seek to defend was commending the English people for stepping into WW2 ?

Is the oil debate trying to creep back into the forefront again? I thought that was properly dispatched months ago.

*Puts hands on ears and begins chanting* LA LA LA It's not about oil, I don't hear you LA LA LA !

 

[Vince]

May I also remind you that the original poster who you seek to defend was commending the English people for stepping into WW2 ?

I'm not defending him, I'm attacking your lack of knowledge. You just stating that they French and English "declared war" as if that was anything but a political move is wrong.

Atleast the British sent an expoditionary force into the low countries. France just sat there for months, stale and ignorant, untill the Germans attacked them personally.

Which, oddly enough, has contemporary parallels in their talk and (lack of) actions. Atleast get your history correct if you intend to tell him he's ignorant - and then it's all good.

 

[London Geezer]

what would it take for Europe to do something about Mugabe?


Is the oil debate trying to creep back into the forefront again? I thought that was properly dispatched months ago.

"WE" (this is all about "WE" and "YOU"... jesus we live on the same planet for Gods sake) might be slow (and even that is very arguable, since we are already moving towards a resolution on that matter).

Maybe we should bomb the shit out of them, THEN maybe we would be buddies again hey...

 

[Legion]

Beats waiting until Pearl Harbor, I'd say...

Was it really the US' war before then?

 

[Legion]

"WE" (this is all about "WE" and "YOU"... jesus we live on the same planet for Gods sake) might be slow (and even that is very arguable, since we are already moving towards a resolution on that matter).

aaahh you still didn't answer my question...

Maybe we should bomb the shit out of them, THEN maybe we would be buddies again hey...

Worked for Germany....

You could try useless political negotiation! Have you all tried that yet? We all know how well that works to remove dictators.

*Puts hands on ears and begins chanting* LA LA LA It's not about oil, I don't hear you LA LA LA !

If this were about oil we could easily have opened further trade with Saddam for it. Before today the US didn't rely on Iraq oil for much at all, such is my understanding.

 

[London Geezer]

Worked for Germany....

You could try useless political negotiation! Have you all tried that yet? We all know how well that works to remove dictators.

Oh my god...

It really is useless discussing with you, if you even consider political negotiation "useless". So what, we should just go start bombing the shit out of EVERY country that has a dictator? Now THAT's useful...

 

[Legion]

Oh my god...

It really is useless discussing with you,

In all honesty you weren't discussing anything. You were simply trying to ridicule Byteme

if you even consider political negotiation "useless".

Never said they were useless. I said they weren't good at removing dictators.

So what, we should just go start bombing the shit out of EVERY country that has a dictator? Now THAT's useful...

Must you be so over emotional? Where did i suggest we should go around bombing everyone? I stated a simple fact. Negotiations haven't been useful in removing many dictators.

-btw you stilll didn't answer my original question.

What do you think it would take for Europe to care about these countries who were once their colonies?

He seems like a rather harlmess "autocrat" to be worrying about London.

 

[London Geezer]

In all honesty you weren't discussing anything. You were simply trying to ridicule Byteme

Ridicule? meh... bit less defensiveness and a bit more openmindness wouldn't hurt Legion.

Never said they were useless. I said they weren't good at removing dictators.

must have dreamt... oh wait!

You could try useless political negotiation!

Must you be so over emotional? Where did i suggest we should go around bombing everyone? I stated a simple fact. Negotiations haven't been useful in removing many dictators.

Suggest? mmmmmmmmm let me see.... in the last 10 pages of this thread?

What do you think it would take for Europe to care about these countries who were once their colonies?

Who ever said we're not caring?
You seem to think that you went into war for good old "caring". Well, if that makes you feel better, fine... It's very rarely about "caring" Legion, and yes even the Perfect Country (TM) does things out of interest (see: money).
Do you even know what Europe is doing about Zimbabwe before commenting about the usefulness of negotiations and UN resolutions?

 

[Legion]

Ridicule? meh... bit less defensiveness and a bit more openmindness wouldn't hurt Legion.

I am being opened minded. You stated your feelings for possible US action and I requested to know your feelings for European involvment.

If you wish to accuse me of some nationalistic defense you open yourself to the same ridicule.

-btw there are no double standards here. I don't feel anyone should be accountable to the WC.

must have dreamt... oh wait!

Now you are just taking me out of context. Learn to read sarcasm London. I was refering to the how useless negotiations have been at removing dictators.

Suggest? mmmmmmmmm let me see.... in the last 10 pages of this thread?

What has been suggested in the last ten pages of this thread what London? Besides the useless posturing of Pax is see little else.

Who ever said we're not caring?

WHo ever said the US doesn't care.

You seem to think that you went into war for good old "caring".

Considering all of those who supported the war i can not logically state "caring" was the soul reason nor can i state it wasn't a reason. But this is all digression. It has little to do with what i was asking you.

Well, if that makes you feel better, fine...

Does believing the US was lead by oil lust make you feel any better? Can you see any reasoning in this?

It's very rarely about "caring" Legion, and yes even the Perfect Country (TM) does things out of interest (see: money).

I replied to a like statement above.

Do you even know what Europe is doing about Zimbabwe before commenting about the usefulness of negotiations and UN resolutions?

Do you realize Mugabe is still in power? How does Europe plan to remove this invidual and government.

Mugabe is a rather harmless "autocrat" by comparison to many world dictators.

 

[o.d.]

One of the first things that has to happen will be the elimination of the extreme Islamic's.

Yeah ! Kill ! Kill them all ! Did the thought ever occured to you that it is the exact same rethoric Bin Laden is using with regard to the USA ?

I am just happy that someone realized this......