Revolution Tech Details Emerge ( Xbox1+ performance, 128 MB RAM )

[Teasy]

Well yes, you said "based". Its based and extended on. Suposedly this translates in advantages to developers such as familiarity, ease of development, cut costs, etc. Of course we know that. So they start working concepts on the GC kits they already had, and when the definitive ones arrive continue from there. Simple as that.

No, I'm not talking about developing early Revolution games on actual GameCube development kits. I'm talking about the GameCube based Revolution dev kits people have been talking about for a while now (even Nintendo mentioned them). Which were supposed to be overclocked GC kits with added main ram.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I'll say it again. If Revolution is GC based then what is the point of calling these overclocked GC's with more ram (that were mentioned as far back as E3) "GC based Revolution dev kits" rather then just Revolution dev kits? Get it winky?

So what you're trying to say is, the fact that they are called "GC Based" dev kits, implies that the final hardware will not be GC Based? Is that really it? You put that much stock into semantical wordings of people writing new blurbs?

 

[Teasy]

Right you've got it. And no I don't put that much stock in the wording of a news blurb or two. All I'm doing is bringing up a question that I was wondering about, something that doesn't make sense to me. As I was saying earlier at E3 Nintendo said that the Metroid Prime 3 video was only made on upgraded GameCube hardware, so it should not be judged as a Revolution video but just an early concept for the next game. Other people have been talking about working with overclocked GC's with more ram as early Revolution dev kits for the last few months. So its a valid question don't you think?

 

[Refreshment]

Sorry Joe, i was talking to Mr. Teasy. Hope thats clear.

OICAspork: I understand your point perfectly and it has logic. But the technolgy jump we;ll achieve with 360 or PS3 is not limited to graphics only. When some developer puts you in a batlle field with hundred of units with apropiate physics, complex AI rutines, detailed structures, tracking hundreds of different sounds and how the units intereact with each other, etc..... Then the expirience will improve and spectations wil raise.

Thanks giving 2006 with that Rev spec list doesnt look too promesing. More over, how much shelf life can we spect? I asume the others will enjoy 4-5 years. If the Revolution interface is a hit, you can spect the others to reverse engineer the control or at least come with implementations of their own (eye toy for example). However, i dont think Revolution will get a power boost during its life. Thats a problem i have, i cant see how they will position a console with those tech specs in time?

 

[see colon]

i.e. it wouldn't look like an overclocked Flipper at all.
There is no reason to assume that the new GPU won't be a new design that offers graphics capabilities that are a superset of the current console.

who says you only have to have one GPU (or CPU for that matter)? i speculated some months ago that revolution might have a cheap (ie affordable) GPU that looked something like ati's current midrange solutions along with a modified flipper. that would give nintendo the advantage of hardware backwards compatability (and not having to struggle with a software solution like microsoft), and opening new avenues like revolution games rendering on the new flipper while using the more modern GPU for general purpose stuff (physics, for example). in the reverse senario you could render a scene with the modern GPU and use the new flipper for some render to texture effects, or apply full screen TEV effects, ect.

long before we got final hardware information about XB360 there was a rumor that revolution could be hooked to sVGA monitors and TVs, and that dual display was a possibility. having dual GPUs would help in this case as well. something akin to DS gaming where you have a complex scene being drawn on one screen and a simple scene on the other for maps, HUD, or aditional information.

all things considered i'm not buying revolution because i think it'll have good graphics anyway. i'm buying it almost soley for the virtual console. since sega is 3rd party, SNK is out of the hardware buisness, and NEC is partnered with nintendo i'm hoping that non-nintendo consoles are supported as well. some seam like a no brainer, like the TG16 since it's CPU is similar to the nes (and recent NEC and nintendo ties), and the SMS/GG since both it and the GB/GBC used Z80 varients. speaking of GB/GBC, has nintendo said anything about playing portable games through the virtual console?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Early XBox 360 dev kits were called PowerPC/Apple based because they were nothing like the final 360 machine.

No, I said they were called PowerPC based kits because that's what they were.

And no I don't put that much stock in the wording of a news blurb or two. All I'm doing is bringing up a question that I was wondering about, something that doesn't make sense to me.

Keep it simple. Instead of contriving theories about the architecture of final console hardware based on the semantics of how a dev kit is described....

Assume the dev kit is described as it is, simply because it is a factual description of the kit itself.

 

[Teasy]

No, I said they were called PowerPC based kits because that's what they were.

Joe answer this, if the final XBox 360 console had just been the same as those PowerPC based kits then wouldn't they have just called them XBox 360 dev kits? The PowerPC/Apple based title is not just there "because that's what they are" its there to disginguish the difference between these kits and the final console.

Keep it simple. Instead of contriving theories about the architecture of final console hardware based on the semantics of how a dev kit is described....

Assume the dev kit is described as it is, simply because it is a factual description of the kit itself.

Ah but if IGN are to be taken at face value, which is what Refreshment is doing then these kits ARE Revolution consoles. So the factual description of them would be "Nintendo Revolution".. Can we stop being pissy now?

As I said, this is simply something that doesn't fit IMO and makes me wonder about some of the things being said at the moment. Why you feel the need to argue over something like this and try to tell me what I should and should assume I have no idea. You yourself basically agreed with what I am getting at pages ago. That Revolution won't just be an overclocked GC.

 

[pc999]

I dont think that a moddified flliper could really improve that much in terms of feature, at the end it only do 24bits textures, no vertex shaders or any programable HW at all from modiffie a flipper or add some flipper extensions to the level they want probably is cheaper the 2 one.



BTW why the weill I would want a rv530 with 2-3x Gekko (4-6 gflops) Edit and 128 mg of memory /Edit , that can even feed the GPU, or do animations to the 100s of polligons it can render, or can do anything in the AI that are affected by the efects of the GPU. Unless the gpu is going to do the CPU job.
I want a rv530 but with a at least 40gflops CPU.


BTW that said a dualcore CPU litle ago

http://www.revogaming.net/html/modules/news/article.php?storyid=145

Now

We remind you that this source is very trustworthy: the information that we broke exclusively on IBM's "Broadway" is now mirrored in the comments of various developers to IGN

Unless they dont now the difference between a Dualcore (and a simple dualcore wouldnt give up to 2x the performance unless they are also higher clocked to close of 1ghz but I doubt about a 3x increase) and Doubled-clock core (and a simple dualcore Gekko wouldnt give up to 2x the performance unless they are also higher clocked to close of 1ghz but I doubt about a 3x increase), there is something strange going on that site.

 

[Refreshment]

But if IGN are to be taken at face value, which is what Refreshment is doing then these kits ARE Revolution consoles. So the factual description of them would be "Revolution"

Glad you touched that string. I dont usually give a lot of merit/credit to IGN and least trust them. We are just simply forming a puzzle, one coment here, another there, etc.

Probably the IGN specs are not dead on, but at least we are providing a kane to a blind man. Giving a general sense of whats the spec target.

Also even tough the kits arent final, Nintendo probably briefed devs about what to spect from finalized hardware. Thats probably the information IGN or EGM got.

 

[see colon]

i wonder if anyone has lost their jobs over this yet. certainly an NDA has been broken somewhere.

 

[g35er]

With the PS1 generation, the consoles could display polygonal hands. With the PS2/XBox generation, the consoles could display fingers. With this generation, the consoles should be able to display the hairs on the back of your hand. Nintendo's question is, do we really need to see all the strands of hairs?

 

[see colon]

With the PS1 generation, the consoles could display polygonal hands. With the PS2/XBox generation, the consoles could display fingers. With this generation, the consoles should be able to display the hairs on the back of your hand. Nintendo's question is, do we really need to see all the strands of hairs?

i have a friend who's an absolute movie buff. he owns an impressive collection of indie films, has shot a few short features himself, and even like many hollywood blockbusters. but he hates the upcoming switch to HD. "i don't need to see actors zits and mole hairs" he always tells me. i can honestly relate to what nintendo is trying to do. it makes buisness sense for them because they've lost market share the previous 3 generations even when had a technology advantage. we're talking about how low nintendo's specs are, but i'm more interested in what nintendo's launch lineup is going to look like. assuming what we're hearing is correct, or even close, 360 and PS3 ports will be out of the question. how will EA support the system? and what will nintendo's killer app be to lure non-gamers to the console.

 

[pc999]

With the PS1 generation, the consoles could display polygonal hands. With the PS2/XBox generation, the consoles could display fingers. With this generation, the consoles should be able to display the hairs on the back of your hand. Nintendo's question is, do we really need to see all the strands of hairs?

What if instead of hairs you display more pople with complex AI using shadows hiding in the vegetation etc...
Or 8 legs and 8 arms creatures with spikes and tails in moving/destructibles scenarios that can kill you.

For me (and many) next gen (specs) isnt only about hairs, but living games (complex living games).

 

[Entropy]

Keep it simple. Instead of contriving theories about the architecture of final console hardware based on the semantics of how a dev kit is described....

Assume the dev kit is described as it is, simply because it is a factual description of the kit itself.

Sticking with Occams Razor, that would also imply that the graphics processor will not be a higher clocked Flipper but something else, still not quite clear even to leakers/rumourmongers at this time.

While having dev-kits based on the GC is an interesting data point, it still doesn't tell us all that much in terms of architecture. It may simply be what Nintendo could deliver most easily that still offered a similar software environment to the Revolution. I guess Nintendo wanted something in developers hands where they could try development for the controllers, and test ideas for new game themes and their new control schemes. Drawing conclusions about the other capabilities and features of the Revolution based on that is difficult.

 

[mckmas8808]

What if instead of hairs you display more pople with complex AI using shadows hiding in the vegetation etc...
Or 8 legs and 8 arms creatures with spikes and tails in moving/destroctibles scenarios that can kill you.

For me (and many) next gen (specs) isnt only about hairs, but living games (complex living games).

And you my friend understand what next-gen is about. To bad there are not more people like you. Next-gen physics could be just as important to what changes games from PS2 to PS3 games. I think games with heavy amounts of physics and natural animation will give next-gen games not just prettier graphics but more believable characters.

This my friends is next-gen.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Joe answer this, if the final XBox 360 console had just been the same as those PowerPC based kits then wouldn't they have just called them XBox 360 dev kits? The PowerPC/Apple based title is not just there "because that's what they are" its there to disginguish the difference between these kits and the final console.

Ok, Teasy...you believe what you want.

Ah but if IGN are to be taken at face value, which is what Refreshment is doing then these kits ARE Revolution consoles. So the factual description of them would be "Nintendo Revolution".. Can we stop being pissy now?

As soon as you start making sense.

You yourself basically agreed with what I am getting at pages ago. That Revolution won't just be an overclocked GC.

Yes, but that's based on some developer comments...not based on what the dev kit is being called.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Sticking with Occams Razor, that would also imply that the graphics processor will not be a higher clocked Flipper but something else, still not quite clear even to leakers/rumourmongers at this time.

Agreed. I've been saying for a while now that I believe it will be able to handle, for the most part, DX9 shaders.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

And you my friend understand what next-gen is about.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that "more graphics" and "more physics" and "better animation" etc. are all things that people expect to increase over time.

Of course, for people who have never played a game before, just picking up a controller and interacting with a game at all is a much larger leap than going from say, a person going from PS2 to PS3....

Is any of this sinking in to those of you who refuse to see Nintendo's take on this?

 

[g35er]

What if instead of hairs you display more pople with complex AI using shadows hiding in the vegetation etc...
Or 8 legs and 8 arms creatures with spikes and tails in moving/destructibles scenarios that can kill you.

For me (and many) next gen (specs) isnt only about hairs, but living games (complex living games).

We should all be advocates of moving technology forward and Nintendo IS moving their technology forward, just not as far as the 360 or PS3. What they are saying, it seems, is that MS and Sony are too focused on the technology. Remember that games are under budgets. The time and money it takes for developers to create detailed models is time taken away from other aspects of the game. EA's 360 sports game is an example of this. I'm not sure where I stand on the graphics vs. gameplay debate Nintendo's machine is bringing to the forfront, but both sides are worth considering.

 

[pc999]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that "more graphics" and "more physics" and "better animation" etc. are all things that people expect to increase over time.

Anyway think in serios sam:

XB360: SS3 great gfx/physic world here the big guys fall and crunch the 100s litle ones and make rocks roll killing even more = very nice

Rev: SS2:MELE version, you use he remote to slay the 100 enemys with axes, swords etc... with a little better gfx and fremerate = very nice

: SS:telekinesys, nicier gfx than SS2 (even if cleary inferior to SS3 for XB360, but casting shadows etc...this that dont need more art work to keep budget low but that increass very much to the gfx IMO) great physics (even if not dead accurrate) , here you can pick one enemy/rock and make he dance in the and right in the midle of the 100s of enemys killing them making them that try to blast their own partner, or making traps just because it is possible with the controler and advanceds spec (wand e can give examples all night long).


NOW THIS IS NEXT GEN, but we will not have this in any of the next gen consoles, it is almost like if there is not next gen consoles at all.

To kkep cost down it is need to not make 100M poligons cenarios and 2M caracters, but others effects are relatevely low cost to implement as long as I know, it can even be made of optimized sample code)