Revolution Tech Details Emerge ( Xbox1+ performance, 128 MB RAM )

[V3]

ok, i think i'll actually take mckmas8808's advice and start thinking positively.

so what are the rumors we have so far.

• cpu:
  gekko-class, ~2x perormance (not clear whether it's purely the clock or both clock and improved caching efficiency)
  
• gpu:
  flipper-class (wild speculation), no idea how it compares performance-wise to the original (aside from the fact that it is better), 3MB local pool, 1MB upped from flipper (that's rather dubious but anyway)
  
• mem:
  same kick-ass 1t-sram, 4x the original
  
• medium
  8.5G dual-layered DVD (or the likes)

What make you think it will be a unified memory pool for the GPU and not the same config like Flipper has ?

As for memory, 4x the original, what about bandwidth ? 2x ?

And within the limited scope of things (Without slapping a R520 base GPU), what can be enhanced in regard to Flipper design ? With 3 MB eDRAM, perhaps support for something like FP10 for limited HDR support ? Multiple layers of texture without cutting into the fillrate ?

* capcom, i beg you, in the name of your firstborn, make a revolution version of the next RE

Knowing Capcom, they probably just port RE4 again (perhaps the PS2 version) to Revolution, now with Revo controller implememented.

 

[pc999]

... the Revolution isn't going to be it. This doesn't mean Revolution can't or won't be a great console. But if you judge a console's greatness by graphics power, you're going to have to look toward MS and Sony to fill that particular desire.

The fact is that beyond some point gfx will not matter anymore to gameplay, but that point is not with 2x a GC (IMO with UE3 (like) level gfx we already hit it and maybe surpassed, and it would be relatively cheap to make a console capable of that in 480) IMO CPU is even much more important but that dont matter now, but know they almost re-sell the GC with a new controler and the opurtunity to buy old games .

A UE3 caplable console + the new controler would really give a total next gen experince ( S (if ET is not included) and MS lacks new interfaces and Rev the power to make (good) uses of the new interfaces).

A UE3+new interfaces would make them truly better than S or MS, this way they are mostly different and a bit better because it brings innovation.

 

[Bill]

I have got to admit this is a bit funny compared to all those exaggerated fan linked spec sheets about REV earlier..which all basically seemed to have the MO of "take a 360 stat sheet and double it"

I always joked the first leaked REV specs I'd actually believe were the ones that slated it as significantly LESS powerful than Xbox360 in big bold font at the top (since the leaked spec sheets always seemed to inariably start off stating how the REV was more capable than 360)..looks sadly true now.

 

[pc999]

? With 3 MB eDRAM, perhaps support for something like FP10 for limited HDR support ?

Would HDR even possible, if I remember well flipper even still uses 24bit textures.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

IMO It's extremly likely it'll be treated as a current gen platform getting Xbox and PS2 Ports vs getting PS3 and X360 ports.

I agree.

This is why if you want a "next gen" experience (in terms of graphics), you're going to have to pony up for a 360/PS3.

Next-gen ports to the Revolution...if they occur...simply won't be as impressive. Matt over at IGN is on the same page as me:

http://revolution.ign.com/mail/

There are some power drawbacks beside the obvious omission of high-definition visuals. Because Revolution features only 104MBs of RAM and both a slower CPU and GPU than Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3, developers are going to have difficulties with their ports. Games with seriously advanced physics and artificial intelligence, or with complex shader effects, may need to be dumbed down considerably to run on Revolution. As a result, developers may decide that porting their games, originally designed for Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3, is simply not worth the effort.

There might be an upside, which is that publishers will as a result invest in original Revolution software. This would be the perfect scenario and I'm hoping it happens. What is really going to be the deciding factor is whether or not Nintendo's new machine can gain momentum over the next year.

I can't stress this enough to the Nintendo faithful: if 'next gen graphics' are really important to you, then you're going to have to consider getting a 360 or PS3 in addition to the Revolution.

 

[Pete]

Interesting tack Ninty appears to be taking. Rather than compete head-on with the big guns, they push a sort of complementary system, pricing it so low that it's enticing to buy as an addition to a $300+ 360 or PS3. Specs look almost laughable considering the time frame, but if you consider the price point they're aiming for and the fact that their "X times GC" design may actually make it easier for current and future developers to code for and thus allow for experimentation with a lower barrier of entry, the picture's not as bleak.

104MBs RAM total is pretty abysmal, tho.

Hmmm....

What's with the 512MB flash RAM? Is that a HD on the cheap for Ninty's online plans, and will it be off-limits for game devs?

 

[V3]

$99 does sound a bit too aggressive to me, I would expect closer to $149 myself at launch.

Yeah, at $99 they don't have alot of room to work with later in the console life cycle. At $99 they might as well released Revolution controller as an add on to Gamecube and be done with it.

Which makes me wonder why they didn't trial the Revolution controller on Gamecube to see if the market like it or not, like how Sony experimented with Eye Toy.

 

[mckmas8808]

Before I start I have zero hard data on revolution, so I'm assuming the article is accurate.

The issue for me is the memory, it's potentially a huge issue when cross developing PS3/X360 games.

IMO It's extremly likely it'll be treated as a current gen platform getting Xbox and PS2 Ports vs getting PS3 and X360 ports.

Thank you ERP. God bless you man. This is what I've been thinking for the past hour. How will Madden 2007 look on the Rev? How will games like Splinter Cell 5 look on the Rev? How will games like Resident Evil 5 look on the Rev?

That's my main concern.

 

[Bill]

Well we can agree Nintendo has staked it's claim and the market will decide..you know my feelings on the matter..

So..I wonder id Unreal Engine would run on it as Mark Rein asked?

I think we can agree these are extremely disappointing. At least run something fast but lean. Then again, I guess "just good enough to lose" doesn't help you..if they're really not going to compete on power why try halfheartedly I guess.

Also, for all the talk of power, it's notable X360 games dont look THAT much better..diminishing returns?

Hell no, but I thought I'd point it out (I first heard of diminishing graphical returns back in the SNES days, a magazine editor actually said that TV's couldn't display much better graphics so more power was pointless it was in the old VG&CE mag..so I really hate the idea keeps getting repeated every gen and has never yet held true).

 

[V3]

Would HDR even possible, if I remember well flipper even still uses 24bit textures.

Yeah, but I am hoping they actually improved the Flipper somehow.

 

[Farid]

Will the Revolution be able to bring us the physics that we have been talking about and wanting the past 5 or some months?

It's all conjectures for now, you know, but if the CPU is indeed what IGN is describing, then one should expect a smaller upgrade from the CPU than from the GPU with regards to the GC...

I mean, a beefed up PPC750 is such a strange architectural choice for a 2005/6 console, that I refuse to believe it until we get a final word on that.
Sure it will be fully Backward Compatible with the GC, but that would be a high price to pay for the BC feature...

 

[Joe DeFuria]

A UE3 caplable console + the new controler would really give a total next gen experince...

A UE3 capable console will not likely launch for $99-$149.
You simply can't have your cake and eat it too.

That being said, it would be interesting to hear Mark Rein comment on the Revolution....I would actually assume that the GC could run UE3 engine...but you'd have to tone the quality way down to the point where it would pale in comparison to what would be seen on PS3 / 360.

 

[pc999]

Yeah, but I am hoping they actually improved the Flipper somehow.

It shouldnt be any easy or cheap make such a improvement in a GPU.

 

[jvd]

A UE3 capable console will not likely launch for $99-$149.
You simply can't have your cake and eat it too.

That being said, it would be interesting to hear Mark Rein comment on the Revolution....I would actually assume that the GC could run UE3 engine...but you'd have to tone the quality way down to the point where it would pale in comparison to what would be seen on PS3 / 360.

why can't we ?? How much power would u need . You would need about 1 third the power of the xbox 360 or there abouts to do it as the xbox 360 can do it at 720p which is 3 times the pixels .

The xbox 360 costs around 400$ so why can't a 200$ or so console do it ?

I really don't get these specs .

I was expecting a dual core cpu and a x1600 lvl gpu and 256-512 megs of ram uma

 

[zidane1strife]

This thing could have been a lot better. I mean there's a mobile version of the X800 out, and we're getting an overclocked 2001 GPU? This is crap. Absolute. Total. Crap. I mean, we'll be lucky to even see normal mapping in games. It's like they didn't even consult any engineers and just told them "Make us a faster Gamecube!" Gosh, at least we'll still get tons of stuff using Renderware and the Jade engine!

Probably had two alternate consoles in dev. all along and where looking at the handheld market, particularly psp vs ds. If the DS crashed(showing nfans/hardcore/nongamers/casuals ain't gonna buy outdated POS h/w, that looks fugly on top.), they'd release a gc'ish-to-xbox console compared to x360/ps3 consoles. If the DS was a success, then it was clear they should go as cheap as humanly and logically possible.... or even beyond into the irrational

Now Vysez I know you can answer this. Will the Revolution be able to bring us the physics that we have been talking about and wanting the past 5 or some months?

A top of the line 3+Ghz dual core p4 struggles delivering far less than a ppu which appears weaker than cell, IIRC, IMO...

 

[pc999]

A UE3 capable console will not likely launch for $99-$149.
You simply can't have your cake and eat it too.

A costum X1300+edram+a 970FX would run it and have less than 200M transissitores and if you remember Xenus cost ~150$ with 325M, the rest already is cheap and is going cheaper to very low every day till Q3 06, so they should be able to make a console at 150-200 (at the very max) and please everyone.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

why can't we ?? How much power would u need . You would need about 1 third the power of the xbox 360 or there abouts to do it as the xbox 360 can do it at 720p which is 3 times the pixels .

First of all, costs aren't linear. They go up exponentially as die space increases IIRC.

Second, recall that 360 and PS3 will be taking a substantial loss in terms of hardware sales. 360 premium might be prices at $400, but it's rumored to cost closer to $525.

If nintendo keeps with tradition, the Revolution will be targetted to launch pretty close in price to what it actually costs.

In other words, MS has a $525 machine to play UE3...and nintend wants a $150 machine....

 

[mckmas8808]

I can't stress this enough to the Nintendo faithful: if 'next gen graphics' are really important to you, then you're going to have to consider getting a 360 or PS3 in addition to the Revolution.

Joe respectfully saying please stop the craziness man. The extra power coming from the PS3 and Xbox 360 will give us WAY more than just graphics.

For god's sake you just quoted Matt here and it's like you totally missed it.

Games with seriously advanced physics and artificial intelligence, or with complex shader effects, may need to be dumbed down considerably to run on Revolution. As a result, developers may decide that porting their games, originally designed for Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3, is simply not worth the effort.

Again how can this be spun into a positive light? Lack of 3rd party games are not a good thing.

 

[Shogmaster]

eDRAM?

If true we can conclude that the eDRAM is just Flipper's, and it would be used for GC BC only.

Sure it could be used for the Rev games, but how would they work around the 1MB buffer for the textures and the Framebuffer not being able to handle a 480p 32bits buffer C+Z+MSAA? There might also be some framebuffer compression tech in the GPU, though.

Well, if they kept only 3MB for the eDRAM, they probably decided to render to the main RAM directly, when rendering Rev games.

Or this Flipper 2 could employ tiling a la Xenos.

The a 2xGekko CPU, based on the ol' 750CXe core, part is actually the one that is really hard to believe. I mean... That would be almost irrational if true.

I do remember some smart dude posting about such a possible Rev CPU candidate back in August.....

 

[Joe DeFuria]

A costum X1300+edram+a 970FX would run it and have less than 200M transissitores and if you remember Xenus cost ~150$ with 325M, the rest already is cheap and is going cheaper to very low every day till Q3 06, so they should be able to make a console at 150-200 (at the very max) and please everyone.

Why are you guys beating yourself over the head with this?

First of all, don't you think if either MS, Sony, or Nintendo could "run the UE3 engine" with a console cost of $150 - $200...they would? Or do yo think their pricing and capabilities is just for spite?