Revolution = "paradigm shift"

[Acert93]

anyone who thinks mario kart DD is anywhere even close to the level of mario kart 64 is a moron. to this day mario kart 64 is one of the funnest video games available in 4 player mode.

I spent half my youth playing the Mario Kart series (that is a slight exaggeration... emphasis on slight). I can safely say you have sense of nostalgia that overwhelmes the facts. Mario Kart for the SNES was a fun racing game with unique powerups in which the racing was as relevant, if not more so, to the outcome of the race than powerups. Someone who knew how to take corners and how to properly execute powerslides/bunny hops could dust the competition--weapons or not. MK is a technical marvel of gamedesign in my opinion. The gameplay is so spot on, so thought out and refined it is unbelievable. I do not say that about many games, but MK (SNES) is just an unbelievably good game. If you can put up with Mode 7 graphics I highly recommend giving it a spin--especially if you like games that require skill, practice, timing, reflexes, and mastering the nuances of characters. MK is like SFII, but in Mode 7.

On the other hand, MK64 was the exact opposite. You could be in last place by a wide margin, get 2 lightenings, a star, blue turtle shells, and what not and zip from last to first--all the time barely staying on the road (no driving skills required!) This was actually the norm. The game put absolutely no emphasis on taking corners correctly, drifting, powersliding, or kart position--it was all irrelevant because whoever got the best weapon would win most of the time. My friends and I had a working method: You never go for first place until the LAST lap. You could be LAPPED in the game and still get first. MK64 was definately not a racing game, but a abuse the AI and exploit the game type "melee" game (not even worth calling a racer). Even worse, if you were behind the game automatically speed you up anyhow. About the deepest element of the game was hitting the break when you hit a banana or the "charged" powerslide. The game was fun--I played HUNDREDS of hours of MK64--but it really was a step back in many ways... it tore the heart out of an excellent racer. MK > MK64. Both were fun, but MK64 was more death match with A.I. assistance than a kart racing game with cool powerups. And this does not even begin to comment on the blurry graphics. I played MK64 again recently and could not believe I actually put up with such a blurfest.

Fast forward to MKDD. A lot of reviewers were upset about the game not bringing much "new" to the table--and in some senses this is true. It is still Mario characters, in karts, with powerups, racing on stylized tracks. But I am not sure what reviewers were expecting... most racing games are about new tracks and cars, not new methods of driving. In this regards MKDD actually added quite a bit.

The game actually took the good of MK64 and went back a bit to the Mario Kart (SNES) roots. While driving skill is still not as important as the SNES version, your ability to navigate the course and powerslide correctly will result in a position advantage. Driving skill is pretty important, and if you mess up a few corners you will be hurting pretty bad. It is the difference between 1st and 4th. The powerups are advantageous and do help those behind catch up, but not in the insane way MK64 did--you have to earn it in MKDD. If the 1st place player is a great driver, then forget it. You may get a win here or there, but the better driver will win 95% of the time. Skill is rewarded. The game looks great (clean/sharp + fast/smooth + spot on art direction) and introduced a great 2 player-per-kart feature. This allows some great teamwork moments and allows new players to learn the ropes with more seasoned veterans or friends (family) to work together. MKDD is an example of "if it is not broke do not fix it". It really takes the best aspects of MK and MK64 and fuses them with new characters, maps, and gameplay elements. I mean, who could resist Baby Mario/Luigi and their chomp ball, Donky/Diddy Kong with their giant bananas, or Bowser with his huge spiked turtle shell? The game plays great and is not half as frustrating as MK64 in the gamplay department.

No cheat AI + Sharp Graphics = Better Game imo.

But you ARE right: MKDD is nowhere near the level of MK64. MKDD is far above the level of MK64

 

[hovz]

umm no, u must just be sucky at mk64. i take first early and maintain it thru the end of the race 90% of the time. i barely ever lose in mario kart 64.

dd however is slow, the tracks are lame and uninspired, lack the skillful shortcuts of mk64, and the game is slow.

 

[Miksu]

umm no, u must just be sucky at mk64. i take first early and maintain it thru the end of the race 90% of the time. i barely ever lose in mario kart 64.

Okey, now listen up. You have a problem. The problem is the well-known black-and-white -syndrome. In your world there is only good things and bad things. Nothing in the middle. Though to be honest, that's not the only thing that affects your posts. You also have the I-am-always-right -syndrome, which when combined with the first syndrome, makes you a *$$$*!$!$$!!.

Please, do get help. Really.

 

[Evil_Cloud]

umm no, u must just be sucky at mk64. i take first early and maintain it thru the end of the race 90% of the time. i barely ever lose in mario kart 64.

dd however is slow, the tracks are lame and uninspired, lack the skillful shortcuts of mk64, and the game is slow.

Oh please... If you want to be convincing, try following Acert93's example and write down a properly written argument about Mario Kart.

 

[Fox5]

The game actually took the good of MK64 and went back a bit to the Mario Kart (SNES) roots. While driving skill is still not as important as the SNES version, your ability to navigate the course and powerslide correctly will result in a position advantage

I think it may have removed the auto speed up of MK64(which I think only was applied to computer players and not humans), but I think MKDD even further removes skill. Play some one on one matches and you'll see, the 2nd player will get all the items that normally go to last place, so all they have to do is hang back and they can still easily dominate in the last lap. And the super powerups in DD are often cheaper than anything in mario kart history. At least in MK:64 most powerups were limited to what was in your sight range, red shells wouldn't track down the person in front of you no matter where they were so really only the lighting bolt and blue shell could affect someone who was a massively bettter racer, and probably not enough if they were that good.(unless you timed the attack to get them so they fall to a lower part of the track on wario stadium)

 

[London Geezer]

I like this Acert93 guy, and i never welcomed him to my home... I mean, B3D forums.

Well, after 130 posts, welcome! You always make some of the best posts aroud here.

 

[pc999]

OT

They should stop making 3D MKs those games in 2D are way better than today it is like King of Fighters 2D and 1/3 of the price ( they should cost much less than 1/3 of 3D but it would be better than full price and should sell very well)

 

[Reznor007]

The game put absolutely no emphasis on taking corners correctly, drifting, powersliding, or kart position--it was all irrelevant because whoever got the best weapon would win most of the time.

Wait a sec...no emphasis on cornering/power sliding? Then what is the speed boost you get for doing tight cornering and power sliding? Any time I play against someone that doesn't know how to slide properly I always win. It doesn't matter what items they get because I'm usually so far ahead.

 

[cthellis42]

Well duh. RE4 is nearly as different to the original RE.

OH NO, you trickt hims!

 

[Acert93]

The game actually took the good of MK64 and went back a bit to the Mario Kart (SNES) roots. While driving skill is still not as important as the SNES version, your ability to navigate the course and powerslide correctly will result in a position advantage

I think it may have removed the auto speed up of MK64(which I think only was applied to computer players and not humans), but I think MKDD even further removes skill. Play some one on one matches and you'll see, the 2nd player will get all the items that normally go to last place, so all they have to do is hang back and they can still easily dominate in the last lap. And the super powerups in DD are often cheaper than anything in mario kart history. At least in MK:64 most powerups were limited to what was in your sight range, red shells wouldn't track down the person in front of you no matter where they were so really only the lighting bolt and blue shell could affect someone who was a massively bettter racer, and probably not enough if they were that good.(unless you timed the attack to get them so they fall to a lower part of the track on wario stadium)

Hi Fox5.

Loved that "trick" on Wario Stadium. Whenever someone got the lightening on that track they would wait for the other players to get to the big jump, hit the lightening and make them redo 3/4 of a lap. That and jumping the wall at the start were some pretty big cheats.

As for MKDD you can get great powerups when you are in first place--the key is selecting the correct character class for your driving style. When in first you are not going to get the chain chomp or any other "catch-up" weapon. What you can get are large spiked shells and giant bananas and 3 set turtle shells and the like. The giant bananas are cruel--once you know where to place them--because you can place them in the most inoppurtune places. Giant spiked shells are great for taking out people ahead, bouncing off small halls, or nailing those trying to catch up to you.

And you will get quite a few giant turtles and giant bananas in first, so it is more of a character issue than a game issue--all part of the strategy I have found using this strategy (usually using Diddy and Little Bowser) prevents anyone from catching up most of the time. Some of the powerups, like chain chomps, are also balanced out by good drivers. The chain chomp makes you go faster, but if the people ahead of you are racing well it will be hard to gain significant ground (but knowing when to use it, like in curvey areas is important because of its quicker than fast).

Another nice thing is you can take OUT the weapons in MKDD and make it pure racing. I would have to plug it back in, but I also think you can select a basic weapon set without all the over the top weapons. So there are a lot of options to vary the game.

They did take out the hop, which I was sort of dissappointing. I do not think MKDD is perfect (and I would have loved the hop... and the feather!) back, but sometimes you have design decisions. The Death Match in MKDD was pretty lame imo though. I also missed the chained bananas and holding weapons behind you. But getting to store up weapons and have two different types of players for special powerups and getting to have the second player punch for you are some pretty nifty tricks also.

I am not putting down MK64--I REALLY like the game. But I thougtht MKDD was better and also different--it was not a straight sequal but introduced new play elements and strategies. It was not perfect, and I wont slight anyone who likes MK64 a more (it is a matter of preference in some ways... I like MK and MKDD because racing skill is more emphasized). The point is calling people "Morons" if they disagree is kind of childish.

Overall I would not say MKDD did not remove skill from the game but required learning new skills. It plays differently and has a different emphasis than MK64.

Wait a sec...no emphasis on cornering/power sliding? Then what is the speed boost you get for doing tight cornering and power sliding? Any time I play against someone that doesn't know how to slide properly I always win. It doesn't matter what items they get because I'm usually so far ahead.

Hello Reznor.

Any gain made by using the powerslide was partially offset by the fact the game gave boosts to the slower players. I remember doing a lot of play testing in the game (we had a competitive group of guys who played the game every weekend and a friend and I played almost every night) and the slower players were given extra speed.

And while the powerslide give some small speed advantage, the weapons were so over the top that getting a corner lead would usually mean getting slammed with 3 sets of turtle shells.

Also, powersliding had its drawbacks. If you got hit while sliding you could end up in a very precarious situation. I was being too forceful when I said "no emphasis"--that was a bit of an exaggeration. I take that back. In comparison the driving aspect of MKDD are more relevant to the outcome of the race than MK64. It is not that MK64 is void of any driving technique, just that it can be offset substantially by the weapons. I have found MKDD to emphasize the racing aspect more and proper use of weapons.

Some of how we view the game will be altered by our own skill level, how much we play the game, and the people we play with (and their skill level). I played with hard core gamers and I myself am pretty serious gamer (when I was in a 50 member BF1942 clan I was arguably the best player in the clan, if not one of the top 3 and I was in the top 500 on BFtracks for a while even though I am a team first player... my first game of Madden 2005, and first on the PC in 10 years (been exclusive to the consoles for years for Football) and first ever online was against a player with a .500 record and who had played almost 200 games and I won 24-0, so I am better than the average player). The point is that saying people are morons because they think a game is better, without any valid points, is childish. And having played a lot of both games (even a bit of MK64 recently) I think people tend to view things with a LOT of nostalgia. This is not to say people wont have preferences toward one or the other, but being a non-reality racing fan and a HUGE MK fan from the SNES, I would say I found MK64 more of death match with a finish line. That of course, is my opinion

 

[Acert93]

OT

They should stop making 3D MKs those games in 2D are way better than today it is like King of Fighters 2D and 1/3 of the price ( they should cost much less than 1/3 of 3D but it would be better than full price and should sell very well)

I have another idea:

How about Nintendo package all their classics in within the new franchises?

New Zelda? Put in LttP, OoT, MM, and maybe even WW.

New Mario? SM 1,2,3, World, M64, Luigis Mansion, and SM Sunshine.

New Donky King? Diddy Racing (wait that was Rare...) hmmm these might now work

New Mario Kart? Put in MK, MK64, MKDD... and throw in some networking options!

Imagine this with SSBM, Metroid, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Paper Mario, and so on.

Option #2: They could maybe even break these up. If they plan 2 Mario games for the Revolution, spread them out.

Option #3: PUSH their franchises HARD as "affordable" value packs. For $20 you get all the old Mario games, or Zelda, or DK, or MK, or Metroid, and so on.

Imagine sports packs (Mario Baseball, Tennis, Volleyball from Mario Party, etc...)

I honestly believe there are some outrageous things Nintendo could do to leverage their franchises and wealth of titles. And from a cost perspective, I say offering "Value Packs" would go over very well if gamers. There are some draw backs (you do not want these competing with new sales, gamer time, or give an image of "all we have is old games") BUT it could do a lot for people on a budget and really build a smash library of games quickly. With the power of the new consoles, I seriously doubt it would take much effort to build a solid NES/SNES/N64 emulator. And it would also give Nintendo a strong stance against pirates, demonstrating that they still make money on their old games.

Besides these ideas, I am still shocked consoles have never shipped with "game packs" of basic games like Tetries, Scorched Earth, Hearts, Spades, Solitare, and other small games. These surely could not cost much but would be a small incentive for the console. Some people do not have a lot of money to buy a lot of games at launch, and throwing in some fun "small" games would be pretty cool. It would not appeal to everyone, but I am sure there are a lot of people, with online, would like to play cards or puzzle games with others online.

I think there are still a lot of room for the video game market to grow, and it is not all on the high end "cinematic" level.

 

[Acert93]

I like this Acert93 guy, and i never welcomed him to my home... I mean, B3D forums.

Well, after 130 posts, welcome! You always make some of the best posts aroud here.

Thanks. Do I get a cookie when I get 1k posts? It is about time someone welcomed me I am just a lowly gamer with a passion for 3D technology who likes to learn and discuss the market. I am very much a tech cheerleader... at least when it makes products better B3D has a lot of very knowledgable people who are usually pretty considerate to others with different knowledge areas. I like being able to interact with people who know all the technical ins and outs who do not look down on others (as long as we do not overstep out bounds!) I guess games/tech are my hobbies and enjoy chatting with the guys and gals here.

Btw, B3D being your home explains a lot, like why I feel the need to wash my eyeballs after every time I visit the forums

 

[Reznor007]

Some of how we view the game will be altered by our own skill level, how much we play the game, and the people we play with (and their skill level). I played with hard core gamers and I myself am pretty serious gamer (when I was in a 50 member BF1942 clan I was arguably the best player in the clan, if not one of the top 3 and I was in the top 500 on BFtracks for a while even though I am a team first player... my first game of Madden 2005, and first on the PC in 10 years (been exclusive to the consoles for years for Football) and first ever online was against a player with a .500 record and who had played almost 200 games and I won 24-0, so I am better than the average player). The point is that saying people are morons because they think a game is better, without any valid points, is childish. And having played a lot of both games (even a bit of MK64 recently) I think people tend to view things with a LOT of nostalgia. This is not to say people wont have preferences toward one or the other, but being a non-reality racing fan and a HUGE MK fan from the SNES, I would say I found MK64 more of death match with a finish line. That of course, is my opinion

Believe me, my experience in MK64 is almost rediculous. My friends and I would play the game for 8-12 hours at a time everyday on weekends. We even figured out how to jump from the ground to the 3rd level on the block fort track in battle mode(requires certain characters and precise timing). Just for fun a while back a few different friends and I hooked up the N64 to my PC through a capture card and used DScaler to mirror the image, and we played that way for quite a while just for some added challenge. You should try that some time...it's pretty fun.

 

[Acert93]

Reznor, that sounds like a unique challenge! Super Monkey Balls has a powerup that does that If the Revolution ever gets online we will have to play some MK I am always looking for a good challenge because that is the only way you get better!

 

[hovz]

plz dont compare the skill level required in DD to 64...its not even a comparison. mario kart 64 requires crazy ammounts of skill to play at a top level. lol@ you saying racing skill isnt required in mk64. id love to play you in mario kart 64 and show u what its all about. mario kart dd is slow as hell, its incredibly simplified, esp when it comes to track design. and hopping the alls inw ario stadium isnt cheating, its take an incredible ammount of skill to do it reliably.

 

[pc999]

OT

They should stop making 3D MKs those games in 2D are way better than today it is like King of Fighters 2D and 1/3 of the price ( they should cost much less than 1/3 of 3D but it would be better than full price and should sell very well)

I have another idea:

How about Nintendo package all their classics in within the new franchises?

I would love that , everyone would...

I love inovation like MP and RE4 in GC (for example) just dont understand why they stop making "new old games" at a lower price.

 

[London Geezer]

Btw, B3D being your home explains a lot, like why I feel the need to wash my eyeballs after every time I visit the forums

What's that supposed to mean?!

 

[London Geezer]

Btw, B3D being your home explains a lot, like why I feel the need to wash my eyeballs after every time I visit the forums

What's that supposed to mean?!

 

[Fox5]

I remember doing a lot of play testing in the game (we had a competitive group of guys who played the game every weekend and a friend and I played almost every night) and the slower players were given extra speed.

I recall a very specific example from Rainbow Road. I had a friend who was in first with a decent lead, but I hopped over the railing at the start and skipped like half the course. Instantly all the computers sped up and easily passed him and caught up to me in like 30 seconds, while he was left incredibly far behind. If it does give a boost to slower players it certainly doesn't give them the same boost it gives to the computers.

BTW, the battle mode of mario kart 64 was awesome, much better than double dash's arenas which are very straight foward.(and the mario one should have kept the classic mario music it starts with, the music it switches to sucks)

 

[Acert93]

Btw, B3D being your home explains a lot, like why I feel the need to wash my eyeballs after every time I visit the forums

What's that supposed to mean?!

Two posts in a row? You must really want to know what I meant

Fox5: The computer cheats like crazy in MK64. The speed up is not as significant as the CPU cheat, but it is maybe a good 5-10% boost (estimate of course). Totally agree on MKDD Arena, although I must admitt the bomb mode is pretty cool.

Actually, I think MKDD would have faired much better in reviews if they had included 4player GP. I still am confused WHY this was not added. Would it have stressed the Cube so much it would not be playable? This is really one of those options that should have been put in because I think most MK fans were hoping/expecting it. And even though they changed the balance a bit, taking out features like the hop really got some people upset. For me, well, games change. It is good when developers try new things and try to balance the game differently to see if it plays better.