Radeon 9800 "XT" Clues

[Joe DeFuria]

Re: 425/425 and even then that would be the maximum.

I've said it before that I think we've seen the last of the major speed bumps with the R3xx. Why else would ATI need the R360, if the R350 was originally capable of a stable 400+/400+ wouldn't they have simply opted to use those clockspeeds and destroy NV35 before it's launch?

We've already given you the possible answer earlier.

That is, the current R350 rigs would be the fastest that ATI can make them, while keeping the board level products within OEM power consumption "requirements." It's not that ATI physically couldn't ship them at higher speeds, but that their customers (oems), doesn't want ATI to, and presumably would order fewer parts if ATI went that route.

So what it comes down to is this: IF ATI decides to make a product that, like NV30 and NV35, says "to hell with OEM guidelines, let's just physically push it as high as possible"...what might it look like? And something with a core approaching 425-450 and memory around 450 Mhz seems reasonable.

All speculation for sure, but the point is, it answers your question in a logical manner.

 

[demalion]

Well, what you actually said, Seiko, was:

Yep, I think anyone expecting the R360 to be a far higher clocked part is going to be in for a disappointment. I don't believe for one moment ATI set the R350 at the speeds they did if they where capable of higher clocks.

You placed the limit at 400, and disputed higher. Doesn't mean that your other guess is (guaranteed to be) wrong, it just means that what you just stated is a change from that other guess.

I point this out, as this is the entire reason I disagreed with you in the first place in that thread.

EDIT: For the thread in general, to prevent some repetition (just maybe ), here are some prior speculation threads related to this:

New ATI Board: ~2 Months.

R360 and RV360.

 

[indio]

I think ATI has something big coming . The rumor mill has been relatively quiet in the way of reliable accurate information. Also , based on the publish reports of comments from ATI personnal , i think the next card will be a smoker. ATI doesn't usually use terminology that is misleading or inaccurate. They've said 2 things publicly . The next product will be a "significant" increase in performance over the R350. In response to NV35 release they said, "We're feeling pretty good about the whole thing actually." Given ATI's responses and there low-key demeanor , IMHO we're gonna see a very sweet card.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

To be clear, I think R360, or XT or whatever it is will clearly be the performance leader, but I'm not expecting it to be some "really big thing." (NV35 isn't much of a big thing over R350...if it's better than it at all.) So R360 doesn't need to be THAT much more powerful than R350 to definitively take the crown back.

I do expect "loci" to be more or less a big thing in the performance department though....but that's going to be later.

 

[demalion]

I'm thinking the R360 might be "big" in a certain sense, i.e., perception-wise. It is the core clock speed that allowed the NV30 to lead in some situations outside of floating point shading, and it is the bandwidth situation that gives the NV35 the most legs (IMO). The "big" thing about R360 could be for ATI to release a product that is very close to both factors in the NV35, as in that situation things should be pretty decisively in favor of the Radeon. If they even aim for (and reach) higher, it would be clear that such perception focus was their overriding goal.

Things like achieving approximately the same clock speed on 0.15 that nVidia did on 0.13 would definitely have an impact, and such a string of perceived (actual, IMO, but that is subjective without full analysis of hardware) engineering superiority achievements is bound to filter into the wider public perception eventually ("excellent hardware" is already an established perception, this would just strengthen that).

 

[Seiko]

Re: 425/425 and even then that would be the maximum.

I've said it before that I think we've seen the last of the major speed bumps with the R3xx. Why else would ATI need the R360, if the R350 was originally capable of a stable 400+/400+ wouldn't they have simply opted to use those clockspeeds and destroy NV35 before it's launch?

We've already given you the possible answer earlier.

That is, the current R350 rigs would be the fastest that ATI can make them, while keeping the board level products within OEM power consumption "requirements." It's not that ATI physically couldn't ship them at higher speeds, but that their customers (oems), doesn't want ATI to, and presumably would order fewer parts if ATI went that route.

So what it comes down to is this: IF ATI decides to make a product that, like NV30 and NV35, says "to hell with OEM guidelines, let's just physically push it as high as possible"...what might it look like? And something with a core approaching 425-450 and memory around 450 Mhz seems reasonable.

All speculation for sure, but the point is, it answers your question in a logical manner.

Hi Joe, yes sorry my memory isn't what it used to be
You know the funny thing is I really do wish ATI would push the aggressive clock speeds but as I said, I just dont see it happening.
And Demalion you're abosultey right, I shouldn't hedge my bets like that. Very unsporting I'll have $10 on a clock speed of 400. Not a mhz more or less

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Re: 425/425 and even then that would be the maximum.

Hi Joe, yes sorry my memory isn't what it used to be
You know the funny thing is I really do wish ATI would push the aggressive clock speeds but as I said, I just dont see it happening.

Fair enough! We can call this "VideoLogic / Imagination Technologies Syndrome." I hope ATI hasn't caught it. Though even if they have caught it, it's certainly not as a severe a case.

Of course, I can certainly understand the business logic behind it (OEM wishes) but as a consumer, I just want more choice. (I imagine I'm just like you in that respect.)

I want to at least have the choice to buy a video card that takes up 3 slots and comes stock with liquid nitrogen cooling. I don't directly care if OEM guidelines are adhered to or not. Push it as hard as you can...and do what needs to be done to make it stable. I'll decide for myself if the price and "exoticness" are worth the extra performance.

For example, I don't particularly mind a two slot cooling solution...so long as it isn't LOUD. I wouldn't mind actually plugging it directly into a wall (Voodoo Volts style) either. How much I'm willing to tolerate solutions like that, all depends on the performance and price delta to the next best product .

 

[ben6]

Was a interesting discussion between you and Chris that's for sure . Interesting was his comments on ATI's yields...

 

[ben6]

I should specify the discussion between Dave and Chris of ATI .

 

[Hellbinder]

Would that be that their Yields are good but they have massive ammounts of Demand to OEMS and board partners?

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Really in my opinion if ATI isnt going to clock an 'XT' or 'Ultra' part 20% higher than the 9800Pro, then dont bother. A 450 mhz core should be the minimum if they are going to launch a seperate, distinct brand. 475 would be a lot nicer but probably not very realistic.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Agreed..

 

[Pete]

Yes, ATi would be stupid to risk diluting the market and confusing consumers by releasing a new card with anything less than a 20% higher core/mem clock. They should aim for an R350/360 at 5900U speeds, or just leave things as they are (not bad at all) and save their money for creating and advertising Loci.

 

[Sunday]

I mentioned in the other thread that ATI will have another product available in a few months or so, and there are some clues as to what that product is.

Evidently the DDR-II RAM on the 256MB 9800 PRO, which is currently running at 350MHz, is actually rated for 450MHz operation. When ATI went out to find some RAM for this product they couldn't get much in the way of DDR-II rated at 350MHz, but strangely Samsung had a fair amount of 400MHz+ DDR-II stockpiled but, now, unused so they sold it to ATI at a very attractive rate. Radeon 9800 PRO 256MB's may have a reasonable memory overclock because of this, but by the looks out the layout and the length of some of the traces I'll wager that this will not get up to these levels.

The new product that will come out is probably likely still to be a Radeon 9800 classed product, but with a newer suffix - "XT" was one name that was mentioned to me, but that is early. The speed of the RAM available to ATI could give some clues as to what they are aiming for, but some fairly major board revisions will be required for this.

 

[NapalmV]

What's up Beyond3D ?


9800 'XT' ?

I'll bet my money on '9900', they have no other choice cause of nvi's '5900'.

They're beating each other with codenames & modelnames, LOL!

 

[Sunday]

The new product that will come out is probably likely still to be a Radeon 9800 classed product, but with a newer suffix - "XT" was one name that was mentioned to me, but that is early. The speed of the RAM available to ATI could give some clues as to what they are aiming for, but some fairly major board revisions will be required for this.

I don't think that R360 (or R355 will be branded as 9800TX.
I do own exceptional Radeon9600TX (Don't know how to attach pics) and I can say that TX is only for a OEM card (Build by MSI for Medion).
BTW Radeon 9600TX is R300 based with all 8 pipes unlocked and flawlessly functional, and with 3.6ns TSOP mem. chips in 128bit constellation.
It does not require external power connector, and Can go as far as 375-400MHz for core (nominal freq. is 300 Mhz).
:wave;
Sunday

P.S
We all forgetting RV360! I think that'll be a RV350 with 550 or at least 500 MHz for core, and say 350 (2.8ns) for mem. 360 is there so that ATi doesn't need to explain much why RV350 wasn't working on 550 MHz from the start.

 

[Lezmaka]

I don't think that R360 (or R355 will be branded as 9800TX.
I do own exceptional Radeon9600TX (Don't know how to attach pics) and I can say that TX is only for a OEM card (Build by MSI for Medion).
BTW Radeon 9600TX is R300 based with all 8 pipes unlocked and flawlessly functional, and with 3.6ns TSOP mem. chips in 128bit constellation.
It does not require external power connector, and Can go as far as 375-400MHz for core (nominal freq. is 300 Mhz).
:wave;
Sunday

P.S
We all forgetting RV360! I think that'll be a RV350 with 550 or at least 500 MHz for core, and say 350 (2.8ns) for mem. 360 is there so that ATi doesn't need to explain much why RV350 wasn't working on 550 MHz from the start.

Dave is talking about a 9800 XT, not TX. The 9600TX is simply another name for the 9500 Pro.

 

[Ante P]

I have a 9800 Pro 256 MB at home right now, memory doesn't overclock very well at all.
350 @ 378 MHz is the best it can do and it gets so freakking hot even at stock speeds so I'd doubt that ATi can push it higher without stealing some FlowFX blueprints..

 

[MuFu]

I have a 9800 Pro 256 MB at home right now, memory doesn't overclock very well at all.
350 @ 378 MHz is the best it can do and it gets so freakking hot even at stock speeds so I'd doubt that ATi can push it higher without stealing some FlowFX blueprints..

They'll use a different PCB or change the termination/voltage parameters of the current one (which are likely set quite conservatively in order to keep power draw OEM-friendly).

I doubt the controller or the memory chips are conking out at that speed so additional cooling might not be necessary, although obviously it'd be a little foolish not to go for slightly more substantial cooling on the core and the highest clockspeed possible, all things considered.

MuFu.

 

[Mephisto]

Was a interesting discussion between you and Chris that's for sure . Interesting was his comments on ATI's yields...

That kind if teasing is annoying. Either tell us the secret or don't tell anything.