R520 benchmarks - Hardware Analysis

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The Baron said:
Also, wireframe, it's clear that ATI have implemented Ultrashadow 2 so it no longer loses in Doom 3. ;)

But if we want to look at benchmarks, look at Pro versus XTPE. You really expect me to believe that despite lower fillrate and memory bandwidth it's 50% faster than an X850XTPE in Doom 3? Bullshit. Compare the B3D X850XTPE review from December 04 to the SLI preview from March with a near-identical test setup, where the X850XTPE scored within 10% of a 6800 Ultra. Or that the Pro is 20% faster in 1024x768 SC: CT (an unnamed version running an unnamed shader version, OF COURSE) but is less than 10% faster at 1280x1024? What the HELL. Or that while Far Cry is faster on the X850 XTPE, HL2 is slower?

These numbers were pulled out of somebody's ass.

Baron ATi's lose wasn't really due to Ultrashadow though. The initial benchmarks and for quite some time Doom 3 didn't even use the Ultrashadow tech on nV cards.

I would expect it to be much faster in Doom 3 if its shader pipelines are indeed 1.3 times faster then the r420 and with Ultrashadow tech.
 
Razor1 said:
Baron ATi's lose wasn't really due to Ultrashadow though. The initial benchmarks and for quite some time Doom 3 didn't even use the Ultrashadow tech on nV cards.

I would expect it to be much faster in Doom 3 if its shader pipelines are indeed 1.3 times faster then the r420 and with Ultrashadow tech.
;) implies joke. It was a giant joke.

And uhoh, you said 1.3. 1.3 is the secret word. I think by invoking the magic of 1.3, this thread is 1.3 times more hysterical. In fact, I want to go find that article again and giggle like a schoolgirl before I decide to go to bed.
 
The Baron said:
;) implies joke. It was a giant joke.

And uhoh, you said 1.3. 1.3 is the secret word. I think by invoking the magic of 1.3, this thread is 1.3 times more hysterical. In fact, I want to go find that article again and giggle like a schoolgirl before I decide to go to bed.

LOL :LOL:
 
I saw a post on another message board pointing out that X850s tend to outperform the 6800 Ultras in Chaos Theory, particularly at higher resolutions, so this is another area where the so-called review's #s just don't jive too well.
 
I can't help myself.

Sander, I believe you answered this in the deleted thread, but I'm still at a loss as to why an AIB would go behind ATI's back, as it were, and release benchmarks before the NDA lifted? Particularly if they're selling the cards, so you'd think they'd have an interest in making the card look good.

Now, I don't think the benches reflect as negatively on the card as others do, simply because R520 is using new drivers and G70 has been out and about for a while. I'm just trying to figure out what's in it for the AIB. You might be a nice guy and ATI a jerk for not sending you to Ibiza (wooooo, part-ay!), but, quite frankly, you don't put the dollars in their pocket, ATI does.

I'm slightly confused (which isn't unusual).
 
Well, everybody rose to my expectations it would seem - apart from a few proper discussions here and there, the thread degenerated into a tit-for-tat argument over nothing ages ago. Sander has made his case clear enough within this thread now; if anyone feels that they need to discuss the matter further, can they either do it via PMs or go to the Hardware Analysis website and use their forums?

The ultimate point here is that, whether the benchmarks are accurate/real or not, they are simply just one reference point. People should refrain from making any further judgements until the NDA is lifted and we have the full details and test results made public from the usual array of websites.

Case closed.
 
Driverheaven, Hardware Analysis and the R520 benchmarks

I've been doubting for a while now if I should post this here, but I've decided to do so because Sander Sassen - the one who disclosed some assumed R520 benchmarks @ Hardware Analysis - has also been accused of posting under different accounts here, just like he was on Driverheaven.
Actually one of the posters that was accused of being him there was me. After thinking it over a while I decided what happened at Driverheaven was too serious to simply let go, especially because several posters here consider Driverheaven to be a reliable source that only wanted to tell "the truth" in this matter.
I'll povide the following information to you, so you know what happened, and can draw your on conclusions on the independance, freedom of speech, and the overall Journalistic level of Driverheaven:

The thread I'm writing about is this one. Unfortunately the equivalent of that threat here was closed, or I would have posted this there.

The following was my first post @Driverheaven (under the name FirefoxAG):
I'm sad to have to write this but after following the discussion here there is only one conclusion I can be sure about.

Just about all your readers are so hard into the ATi f****y buisiness that they simply attack anyone who writes an article that can be considered negative to ATi like a raging bull. And anyone else who doesn't fully agree with the raging bull attack, can have one of its own (like VaporWare, the only one here who isn't thinking with his emotions but with his brain, and is under constant fire due to that). In that aspect they exactly fit the profile Sander wrote about in his post on B3D.

I always considered Driverheaven as a reliable source to get information, but what happend here convinced me that this site is not to be considered independent, or even just "ATi biased" but "ATi f****y", and very extreme at that.

The story written by Sander was already decleared a lie before all this came out, and that email really came in nicely to burn the article - and Sander along with it - to the ground completely. You didn't even bother to look at the context of the email Sander sent, let alone verify it with him. You simply put it out in exacly the way Ati wanted you to ("ATi didn't ask me to publish it"... owwww peleeeaaase... ATi PR could predict your response long before you posted this thread). You accuse Sander of bad journalism and being biased, but actually you are happily doing exacly the same thing for the other side of this "disaster". About the email: it was sent 9 minutes after the following column on Sanders website: http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1812. I assume you can or cannot draw some conclusions from that.

Also everyone fails to overlook the fact that a disagreement with ATi doesn't mean the benches published are a lie. Actually, extrapolated they dont even look that far of for a (pre production) 16pp card @500/1000 and @600/1400. Offcourse he can't disclose his source if he's telling the thruth, because he would be betraying a friend that helped him doing so. Now, that would be REALLY low in my humble opinion, so asking him to do that is plain rediculous. In his shoes you wouldn't do it either.
Taking the focus of the actual review/benchmarks you are attacking Sander on a very personal level without even hearing him out, let alone post his view on the matter. And that's good journalism in your opinion? Well I think I - and all other non-f****y readers - have seen quite enough "independance" here...

Let me guess... R520 will crush G70 in the upcoming review here right? If it isn't with its performance, it will probably due to its incredible new featureset?
I'll be waiting to see that review and compare it to more unbiased sources...

You can all hang me now, as I'm sure you will do. After reading the previous simply nothing is more predictable than that... just wanted to share this peace of my mind with you.
Within a few minutes after this post I was banned. Zardon (Driverheaven siteowner) came with the insinuation that my posts had the same IP as Sanders. This is an outhright LIE.
I sent him the following email direcly after the ban:
Zardon,

I must say that of all the low things I've seen in my life this ban just has to be one of the lowest.
That you banned me because you dont like what I write is one thing, but insinuating that Sander and I are one and the same person, and plain LYING with the insinuation we have the same IP is something a bit different.

I've been registerd under this username on the largest hardware site in the Netherlands for over 4 years now.
I'm who I claim to be and no one else: http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/user_profile/16785 which is the same as http://www.tweakers.net/gallery/17142 on the frontpage.
But then again, if you really suspected me you could have at least verified.

I will spread the news about this on other sites.
With this you have really totally discredited yourself in my opinion - period.

Not so very kind regards,
Andy.
Ofcourse I never received an answer to that, so I re-registered 2hrs later as "FirefoxAgain" to tell his readers what was happening there, in this post:
Zardon received this email from me (FirefoxAG) directly after I was banned - now 2 hours ago:
<my email sent to Zardon>
I haven't been mailed back, let alone unbanned. And the insinuations by Zardon haven't been rectified.

@Other posters here: Ofcourse everyone who has an opinion different than yours has to be Sander himself or at least one of his "minions", and they all simply deserve to be banned right? I would expect nothing different from a real f****y and I'm sorry for wasting my time here.
Zardon, you can ban me again if you like... or will you simply delete my this post this time around?

To all honost readers: I assume you can draw your own conclusions, because I won't be drawing them for you again here - ever.
Firefox out.
Maybe I indeed was a bit out of line here, but I was incredibly pissed about a major site owner clearly lying to 1. damage another man's reputation and 2. completely suppress opinions different than his own... at the same time calling himself an independant journalist who wants to hear the TRUTH no less.
Ofcourse, I was IP banned a few seconds later <how incrediby surprising>. I can't access the forum there anymore, so due to a posts from several people here I could conclude that both my posts have been deleted from the thread, and Zardon came up with the excuse that we posted under the same subnet.
Now I assume you are professional here, so I don't have to explain how much BS that excuse is. Sander and I both live in the Netherlands, and I'm a customer of the lagerst cable internet provider there, Chello. Guess what, probably he is too...

B.t.w. before the discussion on the HA figures starts all over: It is absolutely not my intention to start another discussion about if those figures are correct or not. And I am not defending those figures either. That has been discussed through and through already.
I just wanted to let you know how "alternate opinions" are handled on driverheaven, and that the claim that Sander posts under different accounts - which puts him down as a childish faker - was at least in my case very untrue.

Andy.
 
Richteralan said:
I'm just wondering why you are wasting your time to post something in driverheaven.net:LOL:
Because from what I've seen up untill now at least it's possible to have a reasonable "grown up" discussion here, without people being banned for having other ideas than admins ;)
 
Sorry, that's why I bothered to post at B3D :LOL:

As stated in my first post there, I actually thought them to be a reliable source, maybe a bit biased but reliable... Guess I'll never make that mistake again ;)
 
There's something I don't understand.

ATI said to Guru3D : This is a complete hoax - done with an OC'd X850, we think. Call our partners yourself and ask if they have R520XTs in house. The numbers aren't even close.

If what ATI says is true (that is that there is no R520XT out there), then how come HKEPC took pictures of a R520XT ES Sample ?
Link : http://www.hkepc.com/hwdb/r520firstlook-e.htm
 
Setting the record straight

Traditionally, I don't post in this forum.

Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations.

However, the ‘Hardware Analysis thread’ brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight.

Firstly, at ATI we always try to work to the highest standards of professionalism and honesty possible. We have an open relationship with all of the press across the globe and we never shy away from tough questions.

Briefings
We have invited over 100 of Europe’s top press to our R520 Tech Day which takes place at the end of September.
Even with so many places, we cannot invite everyone.
The question remains - how do we brief the press who cannot make it on the day.
From the time that our Tech Day, we will be working with the regional press that we missed to ensure that as many technical journalists as possible have access to the relevant information.
Journalists who have seen and tested the final product themselves, can then be certain of the facts, should write EXACTLY what they feel.

If they love what they see – great.

If they are not happy with what they see – also great.

All we ask for is honesty in the copy itself... that they 'write it as they see it'

Having read through enough of Dave’s reviews over the years – it is pretty clear that Beyond3D forum members have the same mind set as ATI…

JUST GIVE US THE FACTS & LEAVE THE FICTION AT THE DOOR - WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP THANK YOU VERY MUCH

CONCLUSION: When it comes to R520 results, you should only believe journalists who have established a reputation for being trustworthy


Not Invited
Sander has 'presented the reasons' why he was NOT on the list of 100 press for our R520 Tech Day.

However, he has conveniently left off the actual reason - which he and I have discussed at length in various emails. I am not talkning about a snatched comment - these were full blown conversations - going back and forth - that clearly detail the logic behind the decision.

Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him

I am not going in to detail here - but it was that categorical refusal to engage that led to his being left off of this list. He knows exactly what I am talking about.

Remember, he would still have been briefed before the NDA lifted - just not at our Tech Day.

Let me say this clearly, there is no 'ATI black list for press who do not write nice stories'.

We want an open and honest press who report the facts as they see them - based on their own testing - rather than second hand gossip and fairy tales.

There are a number of reasons why any company would stop engaging with an individual - but writing honest copy is not one of them.

Honest reviews serve the vendor just as much as the customer - and anything less should be rejected.

CONCLUSION: If you choose NOT to work with a vendor - don't cry 'foul' when they decide NOT to work with you


Email conversations

As I have pointed out, honesty is crucial.

Emailing several people at ATI to explain that you are very important, that you have a series of specific demands that must be met as soon as possible and then going on to explain just how bad a job we are doing of keeping you happy is one thing.

However, including ATI's direct competition on 'cc' in such an email is another thing entirely.

To then 'jump to the moral high ground' when your 'threats' have been exposed is laughable.

CONCLUSION: Once you pick the rules of engagement - don't get upset when your true character is revealed later on


The Figures
When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question:

"Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe’s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source.

The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.

CONCLUSION: Either Sander lied - or his 'trusted source' set him up to look stupid on a global stage for printing made up results


Edits
Intelligent readers also need to be aware that the first version of the story he posted seemed to accuse every site who attends the ATI Tech Day of a fundamental inability to be independent in their testing and copy.

Needless to say that I am sure several sites have 'web-wacked' that original version and will be considering taking action to defend their names.

CONCLUSION: If you are going to accuse the largest independent publications in Europe of being bent - make sure you have enough money in the bank to retain good council


Logic
The whole thing has clearly been engineered - to what purpose no one can say for certain.

Maybe he is trying to force ATI to offer an invitation to Tech Day... which is not going to succeed as we refuse to be strong-armed.

Perhaps it was a simple tantrum at not being taken seriously... when, in fact, that was not the case at all.

Cynical people might say that it was to generate hits... but we cannot be sure of that either.

Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !' ;)

Having corrected several of the 'inaccuracies', I am not going to say any more on the subject because the real strength of the Beyond3D forums is their focus on technology.

How open are we going to be with our Tech Day ?

Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them.

The world's top press will have hands-on our latest products in less than two weeks and you can all decide then if you prefer facts or fiction.

Thank you for taking the time to read this :)

Kind regards,

Andrzej Bania
ATI Technologies
 
My goodness, this thread has been locked and unlocked more times than a chastity belt. . .and with as much effect. :LOL:

But really, thanks for stopping by Andrzej and giving the community your side of the story.

Edit: He cc'ed NV on his rip to you? Oh, lovely. Assuming (which I'm not entirely willing to do) those numbers didn't come out of a haze of alcohol, but from some actual "source", one does indeed have to wonder at what agenda that source has. Tho it certainly might have been a personal one.

As I said on another thread, at least this little event has pulled a juicy performance quote (from "ATI rep") from y'all at R3D that R520XT "clearly dominates". That y'all (above) have also invited a major NV site says a lot to me as well about your confidence here. Hey, you were going to have a part you have to sell one way or the other, so there would have to be launch activities of some sort anyway --but I'm now beginning to really get a sense of bubbly confidence from you folks that is very comforting that months of snide "ATI's NV30" comments from some are just about to come to a sudden halt. :p
 
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Andrzej said:
Thank you for taking the time to read this :)

Thank you for taking time to write it. I am sure you must have weighed up the pros and cons of posting before you did and I think you made the right choice; I just hope the B3D server can cope with all the hits. :LOL:

At least now we have two verbose-yet-inherently-incomplete sides to the story instead of just the one, lol. Roll on, October!
 
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MuFu said:
Thank you for taking time to write it. I am sure you must have weighed up the pros and cons of posting before you did and I think you made the right choice; I just hope the B3D server can cope with all the hits. :LOL:

At least now we have two verbose-yet-inherently-incomplete sides to the story instead of just the one, lol. Roll on, October!

exactly

the stakes have been raised, and if the product is as good as it sounds it will only raise awareness for ATI
icon14.gif


roll on October :LOL:
 
Oh man - this thread will live on in legend, to be sure...

Well, firstly: Mr. Bania I understand your profession and all, but I think it'd be best if you didn't approach your posts like marketing material - with the different colored fonts, use of bold, beginning with praise for B3D, and all of that. I'm just left feeling violated somehow. ;)

I assure you, if the points you make are valid, they'll be judged as such based on the content alone.

That being said, you certainly raised many a valid issue with Sasser's behavior that can only be described as truly disturbing. If NVidia was CC'd - as is your implication - than that is totally out of line. As are seemingly a number of other acts.
 
OK - I said I wouldn't post again - but I have :oops:

Next time I encounter Sander with a group of witnesses (i.e. plenty of free-minded press or Beyond3D forum members), then I would definitely be up for discussing the whole thing out in the open

I know exactly what was said - and when

I have complete email trails back and forth between myself and Sander...

...and there was always at least one other person on 'cc' so the email trail is replicable


Also, we internally prepared for the 'dummy out of the pram do you know who I am I am very important I am how dare you treat me like this' scenario about 2 weeks ago

The whole thing was utterly predictable

I just cannot believe that Sander went with a 'random number generator' and called it a review... he always struck me as smarter than that

I am also not quite sure how he is presenting himself as a poor little victim + still being able to look himself in the eye when he shaves

On a positivenote, this whole kick-off has only guaranteed one thing...

...plenty of hungry enthusiasts the world over - waiting to see exactly how well our next generation products perform...

...and - as a 3D evangelist - that has to be a good thing - yes ?

:devilish:
 
Andrzej said:
OK - I said I wouldn't post again - but I have :oops:

Next time I encounter Sander with a group of witnesses (i.e. plenty of free-minded press or Beyond3D forum members), then I would definitely be up for discussing the whole thing out in the open

Why, that sounds like a CHALLENGE! :p He's on this thread, y'know! Maybe we can get Wavey or Neeyik to make it so only you two can post on this thread for awhile, and the rest of us will eat popcorn. . .until the fireworks are over, and then we'll come out to bury the dead and succor the wounded. :LOL:
 
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