R420 Hints from people under NDA!

[DemoCoder]

I don't think ATI VideoShader compares to the NV VOP. The NVidia video processor has loops, branches, ability to read/write memory, scalar and vector processing. This allows more operations which used to have to be done on the CPU to be done on the GPU.

Hardware acceleration of decoding with either dedicated DCT/Motion Compensation units is one thing, or doing DCT or deblocking in the pixel shaders, but hardware encoding is quite another. Moreover, as the VOP is exposed to vendors like Adobe or ULead, they will be able to offload many more real-time editing features to the GPU as well.

I'm not saying that using pixel shaders to apply post-processing effects or to assist in decoding isn't good. But having a fully programmable unit that can assist in encoding is even better, especially if you want to do real-time compression of HiDef streams, or H.264, etc.

 

[Hellbinder]

I don't think ATI VideoShader compares to the NV VOP. The NVidia video processor has loops, branches, ability to read/write memory, scalar and vector processing. This allows more operations which used to have to be done on the CPU to be done on the GPU.

Hardware acceleration of decoding with either dedicated DCT/Motion Compensation units is one thing, or doing DCT or deblocking in the pixel shaders, but hardware encoding is quite another. Moreover, as the VOP is exposed to vendors like Adobe or ULead, they will be able to offload many more real-time editing features to the GPU as well.

I'm not saying that using pixel shaders to apply post-processing effects or to assist in decoding isn't good. But having a fully programmable unit that can assist in encoding is even better, especially if you want to do real-time compression of HiDef streams, or H.264, etc.

True, but then again we are comparing Nvidia to ATi's 2 year old Technology. Not what they are going to face in a few more days.

 

[DemoCoder]

I didn't make the comparison, Heathen did. I'm just pointing out that pixel shaders don't buy you flexibility to implement a wide variety of different compression codecs.

I'm withholding judgement on the R420 until I see it. I have not said anything derogatory about it at all. I think the f*nb*oys should stop talking so much smack about it though, because they are raising expectations too high.

 

[Stryyder]

I didn't make the comparison, Heathen did. I'm just pointing out that pixel shaders don't buy you flexibility to implement a wide variety of different compression codecs.

I'm withholding judgement on the R420 until I see it. I have not said anything derogatory about it at all. I think the f*nb*oys should stop talking so much smack about it though, because they are raising expectations too high.

Demo do you mean MAY be raising expectations too high or do you mean ARE raising expectations too high.

Just curious becaus I think you may be more in the know and I don't want to miss out on a good hint.

 

[Evildeus]

I would say may

 

[Heathen]

I didn't make the comparison, Heathen did. I'm just pointing out that pixel shaders don't buy you flexibility to implement a wide variety of different compression codecs.

Cool, somebody does read my posts

All very good points Demo and perfectly true. What I think I was trying to say (amidst two kids trying to batter themselves uncouncious with lego blocks) was that ATi isn't new to this sort of thing. they've got a very good rep on the video side of thing and hae already shown what programmable system are capable of in this arena.

No doubt about it the NV40 video processor is a REALLY good thing and a step above previous tech, just like the rest of the card.

 

[CyFactor]

I don't think ATI VideoShader compares to the NV VOP. The NVidia video processor has loops, branches, ability to read/write memory, scalar and vector processing. This allows more operations which used to have to be done on the CPU to be done on the GPU.

Why would ATI want to burden every graphics ASIC with the added transistor cost of putting the HDTV encode and advanced "video processing" within the GPU? ATI has traditionally reserved those features for their Theater chips.

The check box list may show HDTV encode for their video processor, but I did not see any of the NV40 review boards having S-video in let alone component video in. I wonder how many transistors were taken up in NV40 just for their video processor. I wonder if it's even working at all right now (current drivers do not support it). I wonder what the next ATI AiW (X800/X880 AiW?) will support since ATI has already demonstrated HDTV editing. Things that make you go "Hmmm...."

 

[plat]

that s-video looking port on the 6800 isn't a s-video port, it connects to a break out box for s-video in/out and other stuff as well i'd assume.

 

[hstewarth]

No indications of valid info on Rage3d

I see no indications of any valid information on Rage3d. It appears to me there trying down play the 6800 Ultra and its amazing PS 3.0 support.

I am trying to see if ATI current cards can do what FarCry and Unreal 3 demos are showing.. I don't believe so.. In fact I doubt the R420 can do it without PS 3.0 support.

I am curious what can ATI do to complete with NVidia now.. it sounds like to me its going to very hard.. with so many developers supporting PS 3.0 and so many good reviews..

I think it is same as the last LOTR movies - ie "Return of the King" - in this case I mean NVidia.

No matter what with 6800 Ultra it definetly shows that NVidia is sick and tired of the GFX jokes.

Of course we really don't know what will happen until ATI 420 is out, but in my opinion ATI is scared and thats why they are down playing PS 3.0. A couple of weeks we will know the truth.

 

[Doomtrooper]

I should take screen captures of some of these quotes i.e the one above, the misinformation is just rediculous.

 

[martrox]

<sigh>........

 

[Doomtrooper]

Ruby vs. Nalu

 

[hstewarth]

I should take screen captures of some of these quotes i.e the one above, the misinformation is just rediculous.

I hope you not refering to my comments.. they are just my opinions.. Until the R420 is actually release - that is all this stuff is - only opinions. Anyway it is quite exiting that NVidia is showing that they will not take 2nd best in the graphics world.

 

[Stryyder]

Re: No indications of valid info on Rage3d

Holy Fanboying batman

I see no indications of any valid information on Rage3d. It appears to me there trying down play the 6800 Ultra and its amazing PS 3.0 support.

Just like your trying to play it up here???

I am trying to see if ATI current cards can do what FarCry and Unreal 3 demos are showing.. I don't believe so.. In fact I doubt the R420 can do it without PS 3.0 support.

Obviously you haven't seen some of the current R3xx 2.0 screenshots of FarCry have you?? P.S. the NVIDIA demos are not in the game but are custom making apple for apple comparisons of those demo's impossible.

I am curious what can ATI do to complete with NVidia now.. it sounds like to me its going to very hard.. with so many developers supporting PS 3.0 and so many good reviews..

That is true only if ATI is not going to support PS 3.0 and if overall PS 3.0 is really going to be that influential in consumer buying decisions during its product cycle a lot of if's , basically to early to tell.

I think it is same as the last LOTR movies - ie "Return of the King" - in this case I mean NVidia.

No matter what with 6800 Ultra it definetly shows that NVidia is sick and tired of the GFX jokes.

The NV40 is a very impressive piece of technology but dont be a hypocrite it is a little two early to be crowning anyone right now isn't it? Even Tom's Hardware said it and they are very NVIDIA biased.

 

[Tim]

Re: No indications of valid info on Rage3d

I am trying to see if ATI current cards can do what FarCry and Unreal 3 demos are showing.. I don't believe so.. In fact I doubt the R420 can do it without PS 3.0 support.

You are wrong, it can be done with PS2 (this is not a guess it is a fact).

 

[hstewarth]

All I am really saying, I am glad that this time is no long "Dustbuster" jokes and stupid cheating on benchmarks and other stuff.

Just think what will happen if NVidia came up short and was out of race.. ATI would be the only game in town and that means ATI can charge any price they want.. Do you serious want this?

It better for the customers if ATI and NVidia are neck and neck with performance - so there is no true winner. This will means that customers have a choice..

I personally choose NVidia for another reason. The support is better in Professional 3d graphics programs. I don't consider my self a fanboy but one who has great success with NVidia cards on multiple machines.

 

[DemoCoder]

Why would ATI want to burden every graphics ASIC with the added transistor cost of putting the HDTV encode and advanced "video processing" within the GPU? ATI has traditionally reserved those features for their Theater chips.

Obviously putting the VOP on the GPU allows it to utilize GPU resources as well, including the video memory. The VOP is only one scalar/vector unit, so it's not a very big part of the wafer. Like I said, the VOP is flexible enough to be used for more than just video encoding/decoding.

I may not be doing HDTV editing, but I am definately going to be doing multi-stream HDTV PVRing, and I don't want my box running at 99% CPU when it's doing it. Current, a 3Ghz CPU can barely handle encoding two 480x480 MPEG-4 streams, how do you think it will handle >2x as many pixels, plus AVC coding?

I have an AIW HTPC right now, and another Linux MythTV box (no AIW, because of shitty Linux driver support, had to use old Voodoo3 for TV-OUT) NV40's VOP is definately a biggie for me. If R420 has a similar feature, or even a fixed-function encoder, I'll be happy. But as of right now, ATI's unchallenged lead in home theater video (for the last, what, 5 years?) is suddenly challenged.

I wonder if it's even working at all right now (current drivers do not support it).

It works. I've seen it in action.

 

[hstewarth]

Re: No indications of valid info on Rage3d

I am trying to see if ATI current cards can do what FarCry and Unreal 3 demos are showing.. I don't believe so.. In fact I doubt the R420 can do it without PS 3.0 support.

You are wrong, it can be done with PS2 (this is not a guess it is a fact).

Maybe true for FarCry - but unlikely for Unreal 3. Also what was shown with FarCry was PS 3.0 modifications.. some one post an image of FarCry on ATI to prove this wrong.

 

[Stryyder]

Re: No indications of valid info on Rage3d

I am trying to see if ATI current cards can do what FarCry and Unreal 3 demos are showing.. I don't believe so.. In fact I doubt the R420 can do it without PS 3.0 support.

You are wrong, it can be done with PS2 (this is not a guess it is a fact).

Maybe true for FarCry - but unlikely for Unreal 3. Also what was shown with FarCry was PS 3.0 modifications.. some one post an image of FarCry on ATI to prove this wrong.

They are all over this message board look around.

 

[Stryyder]

All I am really saying, I am glad that this time is no long "Dustbuster" jokes and stupid cheating on benchmarks and other stuff.

Just think what will happen if NVidia came up short and was out of race.. ATI would be the only game in town and that means ATI can charge any price they want.. Do you serious want this?

It better for the customers if ATI and NVidia are neck and neck with performance - so there is no true winner. This will means that customers have a choice..

You just said NVIDIA is the KING and was bragging on how you had no idea ATI would compete what kind of choice is that for customers???