R420 Hints from people under NDA!

I must admit I'm a bit confused as to all these 'extra features' the NV40 is proported as having. If those extra features include FP32, PS/VS3.0, hardware monitoring and integrated video encoding/decoding then I don't consider it to be all that much. Yes PS3.0 has it's advantages, however I don't see those advantages being utilized for at least another year and it's not like the differences between PS1.1 and PS2.0. FP32 has no dissernable difference over FP24 that I can tell. Hardware monitoring is on the 9800XT so I don't think it's a far stretch to assume the R420 will have it as well. And the last is up in the air.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if the R420 is indeed faster then the NV40 I will probably go for that because imo those extra features don't seem to be anything spectacular at this point.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
christoph said:
Doomtrooper wrote:
Waiting for their first move was a given....why play your cards when you don't need to.

sorry, i fail to see a strategic advantage in that behaviour......whats good when you let your potential customers believe the current best solution comes from your closest competitor......even if its only for 2-4 weeks?

nvidia is feature and performance leader right now. how is that good for ati?

You have to think of things in many ways and stop being so one sided..ATI knows how the 8600U is performing now..They could release the NDA any day..We have already heard reviewers have the cards and could probably print reviews tommorrow if they wanted (Dave??) :p
Think of what an impact it would be if for two weeks we sit here speculating about how GREAT the 8600U is..then all of a sudden the R420 comes out and stomps it..And then, not only do you have a card that just stomped the competition in a recent review..but it will be in stores and available for purchase within a week..whereas the competition, which everyone has been raving about, is not gonna be out for three or four weeks yet..I am not saying this is gonna happen..But it is another way to look at it..Don't say ATI is making a mistake..we do not know what they have up their sleeves yet.
 
The question about the NV40 is how much those features will come into play--for example, a good friend of mine wants to do real-time MPEG4 encoding. For that, the NV40 is probably a godsend. PS3.0 might end up being a godsend--nobody knows. FP32 versus FP24, that's a whole nother debate that we're not having right now.

So, it's all up in the air.
 
Welll....fact is the 6800's are not available, and, from what we hear, the X800Pros will be available in stores BEFORE any of the 6800's.....so, theres no reason to even think about making a purchase of any of these cards....unless you are a fan of either manufacturer....in which case things like logic, intellegent thought, looking at each manufacturers wares in an objective light is something you were never capable of, to begin with......
 
martrox said:
Welll....fact is the 6800's are not available, and, from what we hear, the X800Pros will be available in stores BEFORE any of the 6800's.....so, theres no reason to even think about making a purchase of any of these cards....unless you are a fan of either manufacturer....in which case things like logic, intellegent thought, looking at each manufacturers wares in an objective light is something you were never capable of, to begin with......

:rolleyes: So what you're saying is that it's impossible for someone to make an objective informed decision to purchase a particular IHV's product even if the competition is better is some respects? Pretentious posts like this lead me to wonder what opinions would be like if it was switched around with X800 launched and 6800 still to come. I would bet that the above post would be something like "WOW look at how the X800 destroys NV3x. Don't bother waiting on the 6800U no way Nvidia can touch that" - just a guess of course :p
 
trinibwoy said:
:rolleyes: So what you're saying is that it's impossible for someone to make an objective informed decision to purchase a particular IHV's product even if the competition is better is some respects? Pretentious posts like this lead me to wonder what opinions would be like if it was switched around with X800 launched and 6800 still to come. I would bet that the above post would be something like "WOW look at how the X800 destroys NV3x. Don't bother waiting on the 6800U no way Nvidia can touch that" - just a guess of course :p

No, I think what matrox was saying is that, since the X800 will be available for sale sooner than the 6800 the only people who have already made up their mind to buy a 6800 are those that care more about the brand of a particular card than its respective capabilities.

Everyone else waits and sees how both of them fare before making a purchase decision, again because both cards will only be in stores after both cards have been reviewed by websites.
 
Revenge being a dish best served cold

Sxotty said:
Brit you fail to follow your own logic through. Only a total moron would go gee whiz since the 6800 is about to come out i'll buy a 9800 from ATI, any person with a clue would stay away from the competitors product as well until they see how everything shakes out. The exception is people buying from dell and stuff who don't have a clue to begin with. So in effect by releasing the 6800 you can diminish the sales of your nv3x line and the competitors r3xx line.

And if your NV3X line isn't selling so well (nV is steadily losing market share), why not announce early to damage your competition?
 
Actually the whole thing about who announced what first and there being an audience touting the supposed virtues of one product/company over another is kind of dumb and pointless.

The only thing I find of real interest in all of this froth are the questions of :

When you should announce a product?
Should products be available on the shelf at announcement? (or within a month at least)
Is is unethical to announce before product is available?

It seems like the IHVs announce when it suits their purposes, and those may not be in the consumer's interests. If there are no NV40s available why did nV announce now? (my opinion isn't so favorable) And what will ATI do? Will they announce just to blunt nV's momentum, and be equally tardy for availability? (if ATI does that, I will have an equally poor impression of them)

As for the rest of the froth that is being whipped up here and there, it really is pointless until we see what ATI has to offer as well. Another question occurred to me - Why are there fanbois at all? I mean - what is the point?
 
I understand your point Scarlet, but surely people want to have read reviews of a product before it's in the shops, not after?
 
Diplo said:
I understand your point Scarlet, but surely people want to have read reviews of a product before it's in the shops, not after?

Personally I'd prefer they skip all of the 'preview' shenanigans, you can give the reviewers a board a week or so before they are in the stores and allow them to publish the reviews the day that they ship. What good does 45 days of waiting do for the consumer?
 
Re: Revenge being a dish best served cold

Scarlet said:
And if your NV3X line isn't selling so well (nV is steadily losing market share), why not announce early to damage your competition?

We are talking about the enthusiast parts here that make up very little in total sales(4%), normally the flag ship card is used to gain the mindset from consumers. I would not be surprised if Nvidia is not making any money off the current price of the Nv40. It would be different if we are talking low end to mid range cards (which always surprised me doesn't get released 1st) as there is where the money is.

Yield will be the key here to be successful, if you can't fill your orders then AIBs will look elsewhere.
 
Scarlet said:
Actually the whole thing about who announced what first and there being an audience touting the supposed virtues of one product/company over another is kind of dumb and pointless.

The only thing I find of real interest in all of this froth are the questions of :

When you should announce a product?
Should products be available on the shelf at announcement? (or within a month at least)
Is is unethical to announce before product is available?

I actually don't think it's necessarily unethical to announce a product well in advance of its availability. However, I believe that if the company provides a timeframe to the consumer and does not release the product within that timeframe, it would be considered unethical if the company did not do all it could to fulfill its declaration. Basically it boils down to sincerity and good faith.

It seems like the IHVs announce when it suits their purposes, and those may not be in the consumer's interests.

I would take that as a given, and actually assume that unless consumer interests are materially harmed, most corporations will behave that way. And with good reason -- they exist to generate profits. Fortunately, consumer interests and corporate interests do not necessarily have to be at odds with each other.

If there are no NV40s available why did nV announce now? (my opinion isn't so favorable) And what will ATI do? Will they announce just to blunt nV's momentum, and be equally tardy for availability? (if ATI does that, I will have an equally poor impression of them)

We can only speculate about all the strategizing that has been going on behind the scenes. I'm sure there are a number of factors. nVidia has been losing market share to ATI over the past couple of years; the status quo is advantageous to ATI, so it seemed more likely that nVidia would be the one who would have to show their hand first this time. There are other players involved, including OEMs, who may have requirements which dictate the schedule in some rough form.

I suspect ATI will not have a long period of time between the announcement and availability... It could simply be a coincidence, but I have noticed that some local stores have had somewhat lower pricing on some ATI products in the past week or two. If that's true more generally, then it could indicate that ATI has already started trying to clear out inventory. I seem to recall that after the R300 release, ATI felt that they could have managed their inventory better -- perhaps we are already seeing the result of the lessons they learned. In any case, if they really are trying to clear out their inventory, it does seem to indicate that R420 product availability is going to happen sooner rather than later.

And of course we've seen the article in Digitimes indicating nVidia doing the same. All of this tells me that nv40 availability shouldn't be too far away either.

In the end, nVidia and ATI can only play so much of these games before the fiscal reality of managing the (product inventory) pipeline comes into play.

As for the rest of the froth that is being whipped up here and there, it really is pointless until we see what ATI has to offer as well. Another question occurred to me - Why are there fanbois at all? I mean - what is the point?

Shrug. Fanboys exist for the same reason that people paint their face with their home team's favouriate colours and jump up and down like idiots during the playoffs, the same reason that some people will always vote for the same policital party no matter what, and so on. Attempting to use rational arguments when debating with someone so emotionally involved with their "team" is bound to end in frustration.
 
You know, I never did and still don't understand why it is people feel compelled to wear other guy's name on the back of their shirts... Is it to proclaim that they are the property of the other person? :LOL:
 
When you announce a product, isnt that more like admitting that it does
exist, I mean everyone knew its in the works, noone is denying it, but there
isnt anything official until they announce it..

Games is usually announced before they are released, even if there is rumours that the game is worked on, like HL2 was, its not admitted before
they do announce it to the public...
 
BRiT said:
I can see how a $500 card/$400 (6800 Ultra/nonUltra) will impact the $400 card sales (ATI 9800XT). But I fail to see it impacting the $215 card (ATI 9800Pro) sales.
Perhaps the 6800 nU/X800 nXT @ 299$?
 
A good response Purple, but I am more in Alpha's camp. I think the IHVs ought to be within a month of retail availability before they announce.

OTOH, the market will more-or-less self regulate. Enough vapor from a company evetually backfires (except for the fanbois, who will give their money away regardless).
 
ANova said:
I must admit I'm a bit confused as to all these 'extra features' the NV40 is proported as having. If those extra features include FP32, PS/VS3.0, hardware monitoring and integrated video encoding/decoding then I don't consider it to be all that much. Yes PS3.0 has it's advantages, however I don't see those advantages being utilized for at least another year and it's not like the differences between PS1.1 and PS2.0. FP32 has no dissernable difference over FP24 that I can tell. Hardware monitoring is on the 9800XT so I don't think it's a far stretch to assume the R420 will have it as well. And the last is up in the air.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if the R420 is indeed faster then the NV40 I will probably go for that because imo those extra features don't seem to be anything spectacular at this point.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

First of all the above argument is what 3dfx loved to use "nevermind the features, look at our speed." Look where it got them. Regardless of what certain people in this forum like to think, its a proven fact that features sell products, especially graphics cards.

Secondly, people were willing to wait for NV30 because of the promised features it was meant to have over and above what ATi was bringing to the table. Of course most of the promised features never materialised and this along with the waiting and the hype is what made so many so angry with nVidia.

Thirdly and most contraversially in some peoples eyes, there is still a significant body of consumers who will buy nVidia no matter what ATi brings out. Most of them have simply waited out the NV3x period, which nVidia will shrug off easily.
 
Yes, but there are important features, and unimportant features. The nv3x series has FP32 as a "feature" and look how useful that was.
 
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