Questions about Sega Saturn

[milk]

Man I wanna know how the damn 3DO worked. I've tried making sense of its documentation, but most went above my head.

 

[Grall]

I never owned one, but I have a soft spot for the 3DO, since its hardware was designed by two of the original Amiga hardware gurus... It had a interpolation filter on its video output that created a pseudo-640*480 display by interpolating pixels and creating intermediary pixels from the result.

Don't know much about the hardware in general though, other than it was vastly overhyped, capabilities-wise, by that scam-artist Trip Hawkins. (3DO did eventually go on to publish (or even create?) the awesome Heroes of Might and Magic franchise though...)

 

[see colon]

IThere was a general paranoia by Sega fans that the Saturn was suffering from a general smear campaign from the press (also claiming that it was due to Sony paying the media for it) and the Saturn Magazines were telling the real picture. It was the opposite. The Saturn Magazines were trying to paint reality differently. They were reporting Saturn's shipped numbers in Japan as proof of Saturn's superiority in the region (consoles were sitting on the shelves but not selling to consumers) and hyping Saturn games that rarely delivered.

BLUE SHADOWS!!!!!!

Seriously, though, at launch I think the coverage of Saturn games was pretty negative, despite the fact that I think launch games were probably closer to parity with PSX, as a whole, than the rest of the generation. There are a few stand out titles later on, of course, but I don't agree that Ridge Racer was much better than Daytona. Toshinden was probably the stand out title, graphically, on PS1, especially when compared to VF1. Maybe my Sega bias gets in the way there, and maybe because Toshinden is less fun for me than VF, but I've always given Virtua Fighter a pass here because it follows the flat polygon art style from the arcade. I've also found it to be less glitchy than people proclaim it to be, where you only really see polygons disappearing during replays. But whatever. Most of the other launch games for PSx and Saturn don't really fall into the same genres and are harder to compare. At launch nothing I saw had me worried that Saturn would be in any way technically deficient compared to PSx, and in fact after playing some of the game on Saturn I regretted choosing Playstation as my 32 bit system. A few months later my PSx only worked when it was upside down and I decided to jump ship and picked up a Saturn, and the rest is history.

Anyway, I do think the press started out with a negative slant towards Saturn, and I also think that when the later games started really showing the capabilities of PSx they really piled on Sega. I mean, it doesn't even have blue shadows!!

Also, add my votes to a Jaguar and 3DO discussion.

 

[Akumajou]

Please, Aku. No need to ride to the defense of your favorite console like a knight champion of old. It's just a hunk of plastic.

Also, enough with the self-martyrization, alright? Saturn ultimately did fail because it was overly expensive to build (and thus sell), whilst underperforming* versus the cheaper PS. There's absolutely no disputing that; demonizing "western media" (lol!) changes nothing, because this is a well-established fact easily backed up by other facts.

I mentioned consoles being different...maybe I worded something implying favoritism somehow...

Meanwhile I thought I was questioning the use of print media fodder originating in 1995.

Currently and last gen western media has faced direct accusations by consumers of the "glowing reviews" effect...

This gen suffers greatly for a "certain game" that got "glowing reviews of glee and joy" yet it's filled with buggy crap that rendered the game unplayable as well as requiring multiple patches yet it's all about meta-critic average score design and people who do whatever a reviewer tells them to.

This gen specially started off with "easy to dev for all top consoles" yet both are getting insane 10-17GB patches that must be downloaded to avoid issues.

Day one patches are all the rage too...go figure...surely these topics have their own threads faithful reader.

As for your opinion on why it (Sega Saturn) "failed" is just opinion which apparently despite you writing it...sounds an awful lot like taking bullet points from 1995...never mind my ignored opinion as I'm not trying to change your mind or feed you how you should think.

*Both in raw hardware power and ease for programmers to tap said power.

My broken record pointed how I acknowledge Saturn versus PlayStation differences.

1994-1998 Namco fighting games
Tekken 1, Tekken 2, Tekken 3, SoulBlade

Please correct me if I forgot something...

1994-1998 Sega developed/released fighting games (actually ends in 1997)

Virtua Fighter, Virtua Fighter Remix, Virtua Fighter 2, Virtua Fighter Kids, Fighting Vipers, Fighters Megamix and Last Bronx (unless it came out in 1998)

1994-1998 Namco racing games

Ridge Racer, Ridge Racer Revolution, Rage Racer... (R4 was released in 1999...and I'm missing the manual)

1994-1998 Sega developed racing games

Daytona USA, Sega Rally Championship, Daytona USA CCE, Sega Touring Car Championship...technically I should include F1 Live Information and the Japan launch day Gale Racer...

(Sega Rally Championship Netlink Edition, Daytona USA CCE Netlink Edition, and Virtua Fighter Remix Netlink Edition were for online multiplayer re-releases but despite all shipping before 1998...I'm not counting them and I forgot who developed the Saturn port of Virtua Racing)

The PlayStation GTE was a hardware feature which enables lighting effects depending on the game design...

Sega Saturn has no such thing but smoke and mirrors lighting effects...largely ignored and forgotten crazy talk that gets mentioned and dismissed.

I argued the PR disasters, hypocrisy and horrible media information...

The average console consumers weren't walking around saying "oh noes...Saturn is hard...not buying it...it's too expensive...not buying it...etc"

Price is an interesting factor...was PlayStation really that cheap to sell at $299.99? Launch prices equal to:

$480-ish Sega Saturn Japan
$360-380-ish Sony PlayStation Japan...

I may be rounding off numbers but there's a print magazine pre-E3-1995 interview with then president of Atari stating that he would take Sony to the Federal Trade commission if they tried "price dumping" to flood the market...

Or something like that...but please do keep up the accusations of Saturn fanboyism whenever someone has a different opinionsor questions fluff media hyperbole.

Just so we're clear...I have no hostility towards you.

Again past the botched Sega of America Saturn launch and major retailers refusal to carry Sega Saturn in all of 1995 is apparently not as important a factor to have fixed as using the "expensive cost/hard to dev for" excuse or argument.

I blame the Saturn magazines and die hard fans. Fighter's megamix was great but still not comparable with the best PS1 fighting games visually.

Again when comparing between both systems neither Namco nor Sega try to blatantly copy each other however if you were a veteran Tekken 1,2,3 player then Fighters Megamix with it's "Tekken like stages" and it's own lighting effects can be compared to something nearly there but still different.

The general atmosphere was the same as everywhere else. There was a general paranoia by Sega fans that the Saturn was suffering from a general smear campaign from the press (also claiming that it was due to Sony paying the media for it) and the Saturn Magazines were telling the real picture. It was the opposite. The Saturn Magazines were trying to paint reality differently. They were reporting Saturn's shipped numbers in Japan as proof of Saturn's superiority in the region (consoles were sitting on the shelves but not selling to consumers) and hyping Saturn games that rarely delivered. The rest of the gamer community was underwhelmed by the Saturn's lackluster library.

Fan accusations against media back then depends in what the arguments were...

Remember "Rise of the Robots"? Ever hear of "My Per Rock"?

I'm sure the same equal argument could be made if you read Nintendo Power...or if you read PlayStation Official and Unofficial magazines during Dreamcast launch...

I wasnt talking about gameplay. But since you mention it I have to agree that the VF series was underestimated. It was designed around flow and it was unorthodox compared to what people have been used to. Using guard with kick, or GPK to perform special moves also felt strange.The PPK was how I experienced VF when I played it for the first time too. I was young and I couldnt understand the depth of fighting games so I didnt get the logic of VF back then. Tekken made more sense for beginners. MK sucked but also made more sense because it was very similar to what people were experiencing in the past. Special moves were performed the old traditional way.

Remember "Rise of the Robots"? I recently read that game sold over a million copies... I remember that game being everywhere...

Pretty graphics do not make shallow or cheap gameplay enjoyable.

Tekken was actually developed by a couple of former Sega Virtua Fighter 1 devs hired by Namco.

Tekken 1, despite pretty looks did suffer from shallow and cheap gameplay which got slightly fixed in Tekken 2 and Tekken 3 was finally when the gameplay was proper.

Print magazines is what we had back then... one print magazine suffered from constantly talking and featuring cover stories of StreetFighter II and all its revisions...another hated 2d games coverage and worshipped CGi intro art and pre-rendered CGi...

Besides a lack of reprint strategy guides in North America, Virtua Fighter 2 was $1.00 a play...I believe Tekken was $0.50 depending as it was also up to the operator to set coin cost. SFII variants were mostly $0.25 despite easily found veteran players... I could be wrong of course.

Tekken had pull back for block (likeness to SFII) and back then the argument was that having a block button was stupid... (yet forgiven in Mortal Kombat)

Cultural differences then were still that Virtua Fighter 2 was an Arcade phenomenon while the west was crickets... King of Fighters and Fatal Fury were also rans in the west unless you knew how to play and played advanced players in arcades...

It is kind of expected. Playstation was more successful, had an arcade perfect version of Tekken 1 and 2, and it was easier to get into. Whereas Tekken and VF started with similar level of realism and depth, VF3 went deeper and more complex gameplay, whereas Tekken 3 became more direct and over the top. With more console popularity and easier to grasp gameplay, it was expected that Tekken would surpass VF. Saturn's userbase was tiny, VF3 wasnt as good on the DC and the DC died fast. Even when 4 was released on the PS2 it was too late and still unorthodox (althought underestimated) to most people
Virtua Fighter is today the deepest, most complex, and most balanced fighting game in my book despite its low popularity

Tekken 1 had the illusion of looking arcade perfect but it wasn't because the arcade hardware was not PlayStation based. Tekken 2, Soul Edge etc used System 11.

Arguing about Virtua Fighter 3 on beyond3d...would quickly favor Virtua Fighter 3 leaving Tekken 3 in the dumpster of obsolescence.

Virtua Fighter 3 Arcade Model 3 has far too much of a great balance however arguing the gameplay which was refined but (like Tekken 4) ruined somewhat by calling multi level fighting gameplay as cheap-prone.

I noticed back then that Namco and Sony simply stopped trying to spend money on new arcade hardware and used System 11 as a gateway to multiplying the library of arcade perfect ports to PlayStation.

That is probably a huge problem with how Sega handled the ST-V Arcade hardware board which did have a lot of games developed however Sega's teams focused on Model 3 and Model 2 more as their culture was that they didn't worry about home ports as much.

Having said that Die Hard Arcade was a hit in North America and was good looking and fun game...surely if it was made on PlayStation (which such a thing wasn't nearly duplicated) then it would have been a cover story classic and praised in bliss.

Die Hard Arcade aka Dynamite Deka was a technical marvel...

I have and read that GameFan magazine when "blue shadows" happened...I rented both (having both)...bought Saturn as load times and animation and proper gameplay had nothing to do with blue shadows...

 

[Akumajou]

BLUE SHADOWS!!!!!!

Seriously, though, at launch I think the coverage of Saturn games was pretty negative, despite the fact that I think launch games were probably closer to parity with PSX, as a whole, than the rest of the generation. There are a few stand out titles later on, of course, but I don't agree that Ridge Racer was much better than Daytona. Toshinden was probably the stand out title, graphically, on PS1, especially when compared to VF1. Maybe my Sega bias gets in the way there, and maybe because Toshinden is less fun for me than VF, but I've always given Virtua Fighter a pass here because it follows the flat polygon art style from the arcade. I've also found it to be less glitchy than people proclaim it to be, where you only really see polygons disappearing during replays. But whatever. Most of the other launch games for PSx and Saturn don't really fall into the same genres and are harder to compare. At launch nothing I saw had me worried that Saturn would be in any way technically deficient compared to PSx, and in fact after playing some of the game on Saturn I regretted choosing Playstation as my 32 bit system. A few months later my PSx only worked when it was upside down and I decided to jump ship and picked up a Saturn, and the rest is history.

Anyway, I do think the press started out with a negative slant towards Saturn, and I also think that when the later games started really showing the capabilities of PSx they really piled on Sega. I mean, it doesn't even have blue shadows!!

Also, add my votes to a Jaguar and 3DO discussion.

I love that you posted that link...I remember finding a Sega fan site which claimed many things one friend dismissed as insane (he never owned a Saturn...hated Sega but liked Panzer Dragoon and I only bought Panzer Dragoon Saga to get under his skin...same day he offered me more money for retail...I was like dude you don't even have a Saturn...Saturn is dead...)

My recollection of the negative cloud cast on Sega Saturn started in 1995... I still have EGMs angry letters of people who bought a 32X...

Sega Visions (I found out much later that Sega of America canned it) was probably also getting a lot of angry letters in early 1995...

I bought Toshinden as second game after Ridge Racer which was $39.99 for some reason...it wasn't on sale....

Ridge Racer was indeed the poster child used against the rushed Daytona USA which was a Sega of America screw up...

However back then print magazines did admit that Ridge Racer runs out of gas and has pop up...while Daytona USA pop up didn't kill the depth in gameplay (which is a thing that makes games enjoyable experiences)

Further inspection tells us that Sega Model 2 Daytona USA also had pop up...so this wasn't a hardware fault or developer fault but really was a human software tech limitations...

Ridge Racer Revolution used clever design to hide pop up...and only Daytona USA CCE Netlink has Ridge Racer destroying image quality or lack of pop up...but still has pop up...just more stable.same for Sega Rally Netlink Edition.

Virtua Fighter 1 for Saturn U.S. launch was reviewed to have less technical glitches compared to the Japanese Saturn launch...therefore Sega-AM2 did a different build revision.

I got the Netlink when it was discounted in 1998...it came with Bomberman, Sega Rally and Virtual On...Net Link Editions...even Virtual On Netlink Edition had sharper image quality compared to the regular version like they fixed any bugs... I hope me mentioning this doesn't start some conspiracy theories...but we all knew that Sega of America rushed or asked games to meet holiday seasons...

Daytona USA CCE was only released in the North America region as retail while Japan only got Daytona USA CCE Netlink Edition for SegaNet since they had the Sega Modem since 1995!

Again...Saturn's Japanese sales were very healthy even in 1997...and 1998

GameFan is a funny magazine...I believe people wrote and complained about bias and later they sort of apologized specially when the 4MB ram Cartridge X-Men vs Street Fighter and others came out that they evangelized importing...

Konami still screwed up a 2d game on Saturn with Akumajou X Symphony of the Night.

 

[Nesh]

BLUE SHADOWS!!!!!!

Seriously, though, at launch I think the coverage of Saturn games was pretty negative, despite the fact that I think launch games were probably closer to parity with PSX, as a whole, than the rest of the generation. There are a few stand out titles later on, of course, but I don't agree that Ridge Racer was much better than Daytona. Toshinden was probably the stand out title, graphically, on PS1, especially when compared to VF1. Maybe my Sega bias gets in the way there, and maybe because Toshinden is less fun for me than VF, but I've always given Virtua Fighter a pass here because it follows the flat polygon art style from the arcade. I've also found it to be less glitchy than people proclaim it to be, where you only really see polygons disappearing during replays. But whatever. Most of the other launch games for PSx and Saturn don't really fall into the same genres and are harder to compare. At launch nothing I saw had me worried that Saturn would be in any way technically deficient compared to PSx, and in fact after playing some of the game on Saturn I regretted choosing Playstation as my 32 bit system. A few months later my PSx only worked when it was upside down and I decided to jump ship and picked up a Saturn, and the rest is history.

Anyway, I do think the press started out with a negative slant towards Saturn, and I also think that when the later games started really showing the capabilities of PSx they really piled on Sega. I mean, it doesn't even have blue shadows!!

Also, add my votes to a Jaguar and 3DO discussion.

If you are comparing arcade versions Daytona was awesome. But no, the Saturn version was a bad port which didnt stand out as much as it should. The graphics were hugely downgraded and the framerate was horrendous and that had a huge impact on gameplay.. PS1's ridge racer port looked and played better than Daytona. Framerates were more consistent and visuals were much cleaner.

Yes I agree that Toshinden was more impressive and back then, the young inexperienced gamer in me, liked it more than Tekken or Virtua Fighter. Toshinden and Wipeout were my first Playstation games. Toshinden was a technical showcase with 3D environments and the ability to sidestep made it appear like a true generational leap in 3D. But ultimately both Tekken and VF were better games in terms of gameplay.

Toshinden on the Saturn wasnt as good btw. The final boss stage which was jaw dropping on the PS1 was downgraded severely on the Saturn because of the polygons and the heavy use of transparencies. The same counts also for the rest of the game. The 3D backdrops on the PS1 were replaced with 2D on the Saturn

It was not a good conversion.

Loaded and Wipeout were two other games I remember performing significantly worse. The Saturn was having difficulties since the beginning. But since 3D was early and we were young and inexperienced with this new console experience we probably didnt give much attention. Games were fewer and the exclusives were getting more attention than the multiplatforn from us. Until third party games begun showing superb quality, especially on the PS1 on which Sony offered better development support, and third party exclusives were beginning to roll out as the console was a bigger commercial success

The Saturn had 2 franchises that I wished I had when I bought a PS1. Sega Rally and Panzer Dragoon. Then along came Nights into Dreams. But thats it for me

Again when comparing between both systems neither Namco nor Sega try to blatantly copy each other however if you were a veteran Tekken 1,2,3 player then Fighters Megamix with it's "Tekken like stages" and it's own lighting effects can be compared to something nearly there but still different.

PS1 had fighting games running with lighting effects and 60fps when Megamix was released and ran at 30fps.

Fan accusations against media back then depends in what the arguments were...

Remember "Rise of the Robots"? Ever hear of "My Per Rock"?

I'm sure the same equal argument could be made if you read Nintendo Power...or if you read PlayStation Official and Unofficial magazines during Dreamcast launch...

I have no idea what that means. The fact is I am not going to use Nintendo Power or Playstation magazines to claim the N64's or Playstation's superiority, but the Sega die hard fans are using the Official and Unofficial magazine claims to this day. Edit: And to be honest I had a lot of Playstation magazines back in the day and they rarely spoke about the DC's launch nor do I remember outlandish claims against it. Perhaps there were some, but too few to even remember.

Again this idea that everyone was against Sega and had the need to do a smear campaign, which ultimately resulted to Sega's demise is outright ridiculous.

Remember "Rise of the Robots"? I recently read that game sold over a million copies... I remember that game being everywhere...

Pretty graphics do not make shallow or cheap gameplay enjoyable.

Tekken was actually developed by a couple of former Sega Virtua Fighter 1 devs hired by Namco.

Tekken 1, despite pretty looks did suffer from shallow and cheap gameplay which got slightly fixed in Tekken 2 and Tekken 3 was finally when the gameplay was proper.

First of all I didnt talk about Tekken being a better game nor claimed it sold more because it was better. And I would disagree that Tekken had shallow gameplay.
If Tekken was developed by former VF devs or not is irrelevant. Ultimately whoever was responsible it was a good game which was more pleasant to look at too.

Besides a lack of reprint strategy guides in North America, Virtua Fighter 2 was $1.00 a play...I believe Tekken was $0.50 depending as it was also up to the operator to set coin cost. SFII variants were mostly $0.25 despite easily found veteran players... I could be wrong of course.

You think the operators are to blame now too? Prices depended on the rent cost of the arcade machine too. Operators had no reason to deliberately "sabotage" Sega fighting games with higher prices. SFII was a very old arcade game. Rent would have been lower.

Tekken had pull back for block (likeness to SFII) and back then the argument was that having a block button was stupid... (yet forgiven in Mortal Kombat)

Cultural differences then were still that Virtua Fighter 2 was an Arcade phenomenon while the west was crickets... King of Fighters and Fatal Fury were also rans in the west unless you knew how to play and played advanced players in arcades...

King of Fighter's and Fatal Fury never picked up well against Street Fighter in the west either. Again it is most likely due to Street Fighter seeing its way into more home conversions than SNK games ever did in the west. Similarly as I said earlier, Tekken was popularized by a more successful home console. Japanese were traditionally visiting the arcades more than gamers in the west.
Whatever the reasons, VF failed a lot to become popular because Sega didnt handle well their console and because of its unique control scheme that wasnt very welcoming for the new comer.

Tekken 1 had the illusion of looking arcade perfect but it wasn't because the arcade hardware was not PlayStation based. Tekken 2, Soul Edge etc used System 11.

Tekken 1 was also System 11 and even if it wasnt it is closer to the arcade version than Sega fighting game's were on the Saturn.

Arguing about Virtua Fighter 3 on beyond3d...would quickly favor Virtua Fighter 3 leaving Tekken 3 in the dumpster of obsolescence.

Virtua Fighter 3 Arcade Model 3 has far too much of a great balance however arguing the gameplay which was refined but (like Tekken 4) ruined somewhat by calling multi level fighting gameplay as cheap-prone.

When did we argue about VF3?
Well yes it was a more balanced game released on more advanced hardware. What did you expect? I didnt compare VF3 and Tekken 3 for the same reason.

I noticed back then that Namco and Sony simply stopped trying to spend money on new arcade hardware and used System 11 as a gateway to multiplying the library of arcade perfect ports to PlayStation.

That is probably a huge problem with how Sega handled the ST-V Arcade hardware board which did have a lot of games developed however Sega's teams focused on Model 3 and Model 2 more as their culture was that they didn't worry about home ports as much.

They didnt simply stop. It was the plan from the beginning to have an arcade board based on PS1 hardware. Regardless Namco did have more advanced arcade boards which I am not sure if they were developed with Sony. Ridge Racer and Time Crisis wer System 22 for example, Soul Calibur and Tekken 3 were system 12.

Having said that Die Hard Arcade was a hit in North America and was good looking and fun game...surely if it was made on PlayStation (which such a thing wasn't nearly duplicated) then it would have been a cover story classic and praised in bliss.

Die Hard Arcade aka Dynamite Deka was a technical marvel...

Technical marvel on the arcades and a mess on the Saturn.
I also find your "if it was released on Playstation" argument ridiculous.
We saw many Sega games released on PS2 after the DC died. Did they get huge praise? No.
Actually it was the opposite. The perceived splendor of many DC games was diminished once they were compared directly with other similar PS2 games.
Dead or Alive which was a huge thing on the Saturn was released on the PS1. Did it get huge praise? No
The same would have counted for Die Hard.

 

[see colon]

If you are comparing arcade versions Daytona was awesome. But no, the Saturn version was a bad port which didnt stand out as much as it should. The graphics were hugely downgraded and the framerate was horrendous and that had a huge impact on gameplay.. PS1's ridge racer port looked and played better than Daytona. Framerates were more consistent and visuals were much cleaner.

I can't say I agree. My history is one where I started with a PS1 and Ridge Racer, and later got a Saturn and Daytona. PS1 Ridge Racer was fine for what it was, and I'll agree that it ran smoother, but it isn't worlds apart like many reviews make them out to be. Also, I don't think Ridge Racer really looks much better. The beginner track is pretty no frills with lots of pop in, but the advanced and expert tracks were more complex. Still lots of pop in, but they had a lot more going on. I'm not saying Daytona looked better, I'm saying if RR is a 10 out of 10 visually for launch day racing games of that gen, Daytona's still an 8.5, maybe even a 9. Still a huge leap from the 16bit 3d racers, and while overall RR has less pop in, it still has flickering gaps between polygons, more texture warping, and has less detailed cars (No damage, wheels that spin but don't turn, no sparks when you hit things, etc). It's not that I don't think Ridge Racer looks cleaner or has a worse frame rate, it's just that I don't think it's as big of a gulf as many people have made it out to be. I also think that Daytona is a better game, so I can't agree that RR played better. Even with it's low frame rate it feels like you are driving faster. And it has more tracks and the better soundtrack. Although, you can play the Daytona soundtrack while playing Ridge Racer, so I guess there is that.

For the record, I also prefer launch day Daytona to CCE. It feels faster and more like the arcade. CCE is fine, and more technically sound, but it lost something in the upgrades that made the game feel right, IMHO.

 

[see colon]

Technical marvel on the arcades and a mess on the Saturn.
I also find your "if it was released on Playstation" argument ridiculous.
We saw many Sega games released on PS2 after the DC died. Did they get huge praise? No.
Actually it was the opposite. The perceived splendor of many DC games was diminished once they were compared directly with other similar PS2 games.
Dead or Alive which was a huge thing on the Saturn was released on the PS1. Did it get huge praise? No
The same would have counted for Die Hard.

Not sure how I missed this, but Die Hard Arcade ran on STV-Titan hardware in the arcade. It's pretty much Saturn hardware. I'm not sure I would call Die Hard Arcade a technical marvel in the arcade, but the Saturn port was virtually identical, aside from the added load times. The arcade used carts while the Saturn version is CD, obviously. The only time the loading really gets in the way is the cinematics, because they are realtime and they load between camera angles. It's still a fun game and one of my favorite 3d beat em ups from that era. It limited itself to left and right attacks like a 2d brawler unlike games like Fighting Force, and I think that helped to keep the impact detection a little more consistent.

Regarding many Dreamcast games on PS2... Many of those actually look worse. Ecco, Crazy Taxi, 18 Wheeler, and Headhunter all look worse on PS2 than Dreamcast, anyway. If I had to guess why, it's because whoever did the ports (Acclaim?) just resized the textures to fit in the embedded memory on PS2, including a drop in color depth. I'm quite sure most of them used field based rendering as well, as opposed to the progressive scan available on DC. Also, no AA and worse filtering on PS2. I think they all use bilinear without mipmaps, by the looks of it. So you get a noisier image with more jaggies and less detailed textures. I won't say all of those games were better games or more fun than other games released on PS2, but the actual versions that appeared on the platform were weaker representations of their Dreamcast counterparts.

Dead or Alive is a weird one because the Playstation version got very little press, and it's really a much different game than the Model 2 arcade or Saturn version. They use a completely different art style, different stages and the PS1 version added lighting that really changed the aesthetic of the game. I think the main reasons the Saturn version gets any press is because it wasn't released in the west, it was released in Japan around the time the Saturn was fizzling out in the west, and it was a pretty accurate port from the arcade, all things considered. Also, a lot of western press had taken to previewing games from japan around that time, especially for the Saturn. I think I still have a few CDs from Next Generation that have quicktime videos of Dead or Alive on them. Plus, it's very Virtua Fighter like in it's control scheme, so it instantly appeals to Saturn owners.

Also, I think a lot of the arguments about Saturn or Dreamcast games being better has to do with demographics. I think a lot of people, like myself, who were pleased overall with the Saturn's library were people looking for arcade style games at home. If you look at most Saturn top 10 lists, you'll find more arcade ports or arcade style action games like Panzer Dragoon, while PS1 lists are filled with games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Castlevania and Tony Hawk, not to mention all of the other RPGs. What I'm saying is that the idea that Sega fans think Daytona USA is a great game and valuable to the Saturn's library is right in line with the demographic for the console. But I've never met a PS1 enthusiast who LOVES Burning Road, a game that so badly wants to be Daytona they even copied the draw in. Why would they? They spend all of their time trying to get licenses in Gran Turismo.

Also, how did we have a 10 page discussion about the technical merits and shortcoming of the Sega Saturn and not mention AMOK. There aren't any PS1 or N64 games that use voxels to my knowledge, and thinking more about how Saturn composes a scene, they must all be rendered by VDP1, right? That means AMOK is a game with very little VDP2 special sauce, yet it's smooth running game that's pretty for it's time. Also, it explains away it's draw distance by being in a post apoc setting with some missions underwater.

 

[Exophase]

Also, how did we have a 10 page discussion about the technical merits and shortcoming of the Sega Saturn and not mention AMOK. There aren't any PS1 or N64 games that use voxels to my knowledge, and thinking more about how Saturn composes a scene, they must all be rendered by VDP1, right? That means AMOK is a game with very little VDP2 special sauce, yet it's smooth running game that's pretty for it's time. Also, it explains away it's draw distance by being in a post apoc setting with some missions underwater.

I don't know what this game does exactly, but it looks reminiscent of this incomplete GBA game that also used voxels:

Suffice it to say that GBA doesn't have any 3D hardware and I don't think it was able to leverage the 2D hardware for this except maybe for some prerendered sprites that look like polygonal objects. GBA's ARM7 was less powerful than one of Saturn's SH2's, quite substantially really, so my guess is that AMOK's voxels are software rendered and not using any VDP1 special sauce. Actual quads are used for various objects though.

Here's another video of AMOK that is clearer:

This could be chalked up as enabled by a CPU advantage on Saturn (surely N64 would be able to do better) but was it really worth it? IMO not really. The voxel terrain is pretty low resolution and has pretty poor visibility. Although there's still some advantages I'm not terribly convinced that a fully polygonal game wouldn't have looked better. Maybe this game was originally developed for some other platform like 32X where it made sense to choose a rendering method that was more CPU-friendly. But I think it's safe to say that there was a reason we didn't see more of this that has to do with more than technical superiority on the Saturn.

EDIT: Looked into it more and apparently early promotional material suggests AMOK was originally going to be a 32X game. Check out this 32X tech demo from 1995 @ 4:17:

Lemon is the same developer who did AMOK. The music in this demo even sounds a lot like AMOK's.

 

[Nesh]

Not sure how I missed this, but Die Hard Arcade ran on STV-Titan hardware in the arcade. It's pretty much Saturn hardware. I'm not sure I would call Die Hard Arcade a technical marvel in the arcade, but the Saturn port was virtually identical, aside from the added load times. The arcade used carts while the Saturn version is CD, obviously. The only time the loading really gets in the way is the cinematics, because they are realtime and they load between camera angles. It's still a fun game and one of my favorite 3d beat em ups from that era. It limited itself to left and right attacks like a 2d brawler unlike games like Fighting Force, and I think that helped to keep the impact detection a little more consistent.

I played both the Arcade and the Saturn version and finished it on both. Perhaps either I dont remember well or perhaps the Saturn version was sluggish because it could have been the PAL version. My memory remembers the arcade version running smoother and at higher resolution. I doubt people would have cared much if it was released on the PS1, arcade perfect or not.

Regarding many Dreamcast games on PS2... Many of those actually look worse. Ecco, Crazy Taxi, 18 Wheeler, and Headhunter all look worse on PS2 than Dreamcast, anyway. If I had to guess why, it's because whoever did the ports (Acclaim?) just resized the textures to fit in the embedded memory on PS2, including a drop in color depth. I'm quite sure most of them used field based rendering as well, as opposed to the progressive scan available on DC. Also, no AA and worse filtering on PS2. I think they all use bilinear without mipmaps, by the looks of it. So you get a noisier image with more jaggies and less detailed textures. I won't say all of those games were better games or more fun than other games released on PS2, but the actual versions that appeared on the platform were weaker representations of their Dreamcast counterparts.

Yes they did look worse in many cases but not significantly.to be a game breaker and the gameplay was intact. Even if they were identical I doubt it would have made much of a difference.
Even Sonic Adventure 2 and Shenmue 2 that have seen their way to GC and XBOX werent that much of a great deal.

Dead or Alive is a weird one because the Playstation version got very little press, and it's really a much different game than the Model 2 arcade or Saturn version. They use a completely different art style, different stages and the PS1 version added lighting that really changed the aesthetic of the game. I think the main reasons the Saturn version gets any press is because it wasn't released in the west, it was released in Japan around the time the Saturn was fizzling out in the west, and it was a pretty accurate port from the arcade, all things considered. Also, a lot of western press had taken to previewing games from japan around that time, especially for the Saturn. I think I still have a few CDs from Next Generation that have quicktime videos of Dead or Alive on them. Plus, it's very Virtua Fighter like in it's control scheme, so it instantly appeals to Saturn owners.

Well the Playstation on the other hand had a ton of fighting games. DoA's gameplay played like VF2 mostly plus the explosive zones. It was outdated by the time it was released on Playstation, not that Playstation owners would have cared much if it was released earlier and accurate to the arcade version. And with games like Tekken 3 and Soul Edge? Who cared?
The Saturn was starving for good games. This is why it gets extra praise

Also, I think a lot of the arguments about Saturn or Dreamcast games being better has to do with demographics. I think a lot of people, like myself, who were pleased overall with the Saturn's library were people looking for arcade style games at home. If you look at most Saturn top 10 lists, you'll find more arcade ports or arcade style action games like Panzer Dragoon, while PS1 lists are filled with games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Castlevania and Tony Hawk, not to mention all of the other RPGs. What I'm saying is that the idea that Sega fans think Daytona USA is a great game and valuable to the Saturn's library is right in line with the demographic for the console. But I've never met a PS1 enthusiast who LOVES Burning Road, a game that so badly wants to be Daytona they even copied the draw in. Why would they? They spend all of their time trying to get licenses in Gran Turismo.

I agree and I think the problem is that Sega relied way too much on arcade style games whereas Sony had its arcade game selection plus games with larger scope. The library appeared more complete on the PS1. For every arcade game the Saturn had, the PS1 had a game to compete with plus more.
You could finish most of the games in one playthrough on the Saturn. And since the Saturn didnt have the large variety to choose from it was easier to run out of options and lastability.
The Saturn WAS the Sega Arcade experience, whereas on the PS1 the arcade experience was among the many options.
So I dont think it is just the demographics. It has to do with the quality of the library and how much it changed. The PS1 owner saw better and newer games more often.
Whereas the Saturn owners were stack with the same great games most of the time. The best racing games, fighting games, shoot em ups, sports games etc etc on the Saturn were the same franchises or same old games most of the time. The best memories are stuck with those options. The Top 10 list on the Saturn saw less rotation than the PS1 Top 10 list.

For example Sega Rally was the best 3D racing ever on the Saturn. And it was an old game. Whereas on the PS1, the best racing game was sometimes Ridge Racer ( 4 games), sometimes Wipeout (3 games), sometimes Gran Turismo (2 games), sometimes Colin Mc Rae etc.
Whereas Virtua Cop was a top franchise for the Saturn, on the PS1 Time Crisis was one ok option.

If the PS1 was stuck with the same arcade games and not much in terms of other experiences people would have remembered the arcade games more.

But the Saturn owner DID wish for bigger games. This is why Nights, Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Deep Fear, Resident Evil were delightful announcements.

 

[see colon]

I played both the Arcade and the Saturn version and finished it on both. Perhaps either I dont remember well or perhaps the Saturn version was sluggish because it could have been the PAL version. My memory remembers the arcade version running smoother and at higher resolution. I doubt people would have cared much if it was released on the PS1, arcade perfect or not.

That's probably true, but I don't think the average PS1 owner really cares about beat em ups. What were the best beat em ups on the system? 2 Fighting Force games and Gekido? Saturn had Die Hard Arcade, Dungeons and Dragons, and Guardian Heroes.

The Top 10 list on the Saturn saw less rotation than the PS1 Top 10 list.

I hope so, it was out twice as long and has 4 times as many games released on it.

For example Sega Rally was the best 3D racing ever on the Saturn. And it was an old game. Whereas on the PS1, the best racing game was sometimes Ridge Racer ( 4 games), sometimes Wipeout (3 games), sometimes Gran Turismo (2 games), sometimes Colin Mc Rae etc.
Whereas Virtua Cop was a top franchise for the Saturn, on the PS1 Time Crisis was one ok option.

If the PS1 was stuck with the same arcade games and not much in terms of other experiences people would have remembered the arcade games more.

But the Saturn owner DID wish for bigger games. This is why Nights, Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Deep Fear, Resident Evil were delightful announcements.

I guess that's a chicken and egg question. But I know that my personal experience with Saturn was very much one of wanting to replicate the arcade experience in my home, and part of the reason why I preferred Saturn to PSx. It wasn't even all just based on the library. To talk about Virtua Cop, I bought guns to play Virtua Cop and they worked with Virtua Cop 2, House of the Dead, Maximum Force, Area 51... Basically every game you would imagine they would work with except for Revolution X (no lightgun support in that game). On Playstation, I had a Guncon for Point Blank and Time Crisis and had disappointment when I tried to play Area 51 with it.

Anyway, there were longer games on Saturn of course. Mystaria, Dark Savior, Legend of Oasis, Albert Odyssey, Dragon Force, Herc's Adventure and Shinning Force are all longer, more story rich games as well. They are also all respectable titles that every video game fan should play if they get a chance. Add those to your list and subtract NiGHTs and Burning Rangers because they are really short, and you have a list of 10 games you are lucky to see 5 of in a top 10 list of Saturn games.

Again, chicken or egg, I'm not sure. Maybe there weren't enough non-arcade titles to keep that demographic or maybe the demographic only supported Saturn through arcade style games. But once the dust settled, you had a demographic on Saturn that were more arcade leaning, and one on Playstation looking for more story rich content. So a game released on both platforms would be received differently, of course.

Maybe this is related to the phenomenon where people believe that all 2D games are better on Saturn. They usually list arcade style fighters and shoot em ups, but I can state that from my own experience that X-Men and In The Hunt are better on Playstation. But I hear Saturn fans claim that they are better because they are 2D, and Playstation fans just accept it. Maybe the demographic isn't there to stand up for the 2D arcade games on the platform.

 

[I.S.T.]

Herc's Adventure is on PS1 as well. Works well there.

 

[Akumajou]

If you are comparing arcade versions Daytona was awesome. But no, the Saturn version was a bad port which didnt stand out as much as it should. The graphics were hugely downgraded and the framerate was horrendous and that had a huge impact on gameplay.. PS1's ridge racer port looked and played better than Daytona. Framerates were more consistent and visuals were much cleaner.

This makes me wonder if you played those games back then on each system and immediately faulted framerates and pop up clipping.

The Ridge Racer PSX versus Daytona USA Saturn 1995 is mostly a print magazine comparison...the scores and reviews are interesting of the time as they didn't seem too bothered only in making the comparisons.

I started with launch day PlayStation after determining Tekken in arcades and other comparisons by different magazines...got Ridge Racer as my first PSX game and mastered it.

I rented a Saturn with Virtua Fighter 1...non-remix and something else and ...Panzer Dragoon...that same year and got the Sega Saturn in 1996 as the three free games which were Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter 2, and Daytona USA.

Playing Daytona USA after Ridge Racer and getting over the image and framerates...I didn't find an "unplayable" game...ended up finding a different racer with deeper gameplay mechanics and different race tracks!!

However yes it was indeed rushed and unfortunately in my opinion Sega-AM2 did not get a proper chance to make a proper port however it can be argued that Sega-AM2 also did not do Virtua Racing Saturn either which in my opinion would have been better for the Japan launch and U.S.launch and then follow up with Daytona and Virtua Fighter 2...

Despite AM3 being charged with handling Daytona USA...the Sega of America version was released months in advance with bugs and clipping issues...the Japanese Daytona USA CE was not rushed...and the mail order only Daytona USA CCE Netlink Edition was also not rushed, missing lyrics and one feature but framerate and draw distance was proper for that...who the hell made the decision to make Daytona USA CCE Netlink Edition a mail only...oh well...I guess Europe never got that version somehow.

Yes I agree that Toshinden was more impressive and back then, the young inexperienced gamer in me, liked it more than Tekken or Virtua Fighter. Toshinden and Wipeout were my first Playstation games. Toshinden was a technical showcase with 3D environments and the ability to sidestep made it appear like a true generational leap in 3D. But ultimately both Tekken and VF were better games in terms of gameplay.

After extensive gameplay sessions...and versus matches on all three...(yeah I got Toshinden as my second game a week later... speaking U.S. here as Tekken 1 came later) you start to notice that gameplay mechanics make the game more memorable than flashy looks not even SoulBlade held up as Soul Calibur is what really became a bit more playable.

That's why even Virtua Fighter 1 outplays even Tekken 1 with "dial a combos" and cheap ground hits the latter of which was taken out in Tekken 2.

What Tekken 1 did have was the illusion of more characters and endings as well as the alternate Arcade bosses but the game doesn't hold up...

Toshinden on the Saturn wasnt as good btw. The final boss stage which was jaw dropping on the PS1 was downgraded severely on the Saturn because of the polygons and the heavy use of transparencies. The same counts also for the rest of the game. The 3D backdrops on the PS1 were replaced with 2D on the Saturn

If you played Virtua Fighter 1, Remix or VF2 then Toshinden Saturn wouldn't be an issue... as it wasn't as impressive as those...but was actually more re-playable as a fighting game.

It was not a good conversion.

Fans may have assumed Toshinden was a conversion...but they were different games with Saturn being a bit more playable in gameplay...also ultimately no matter how pretty the 3d backgrounds looked...they detractdetracted from the gameplay just like SoulBlade.

The Saturn had 2 franchises that I wished I had when I bought a PS1. Sega Rally and Panzer Dragoon. Then along came Nights into Dreams. But thats it for me

So Halo series and Gears of War have to also be on PlayStation? I don't know what you're implying.

The ugly truth about Tekken is it took until Tekken 3 to finally be truly technically impressive...but even lighting doesn't make that gen game a superior long term technology experience...Tekken 2 was more blocky than JVC Center Ring Boxing...just Tekken 2 had textures on non animated faces, and hands and stiff movement compared to Virtua Fighter 2.

I have no idea what that means. The fact is I am not going to use Nintendo Power or Playstation magazines to claim the N64's or Playstation's superiority, but the Sega die hard fans are using the Official and Unofficial magazine claims to this day. Edit: And to be honest I had a lot of Playstation magazines back in the day and they rarely spoke about the DC's launch nor do I remember outlandish claims against it. Perhaps there were some, but too few to even remember.

I'm in the U.S....we had no official Sega print magazine or even anything that was properly organized...

You are arguing platform superiority based on magazines, I am not...I am stating how information was only found in multi system magazines which tended to as they say...cater to whoever is paying for ads...use and repeat old misquotes...etc...there is a marketing war with every system generation.

People don't just go and say "Daytona USA looked bad "a magazine said Saturn is hard to dev for" or "3d titles are the only software worth paying $50-plus USD.

A lot of those ideologies were at times pushed in print magazines which kept implying Street Fighter II should have gone polygon yesterday...yet those games...who revisits/prefers them over the 2d alpha/zero ports?

Nintendo had a faithful fan following back then...it wasn't just "oh no...no Final Fantasy VII...so I'm not buying N64 because Super Mario 64 doesn't run at 30fps" and I'm not talking about stupid consumers... products sell on marketing and brand loyalty...not just price.

Lacking an official monthly publication...lacking proper guides, strategies...that stuff contributed to U.S. failure unlike U.K. which had parts doing well and Japan which had a growing install base Sega never had before.

Again this idea that everyone was against Sega and had the need to do a smear campaign, which ultimately resulted to Sega's demise is outright ridiculous.

You are stating this to ridicule my statements... like I said...the print magazines started to make a big deal out of a sentence a Sega developer made...yet the same year that issue was addressed and apparently resolved was followed by more print magazines copy pasting and the same magazine nearly forgetting the issue was addressed in subsequent issues.

Can you debunk that there wasn't some hugely biased western print gamer media back then?... I wasn't the one who linked the blue shadows...you should read all of that...as they are scans from the dead magazines.

I could mention it plays a factor...but SoA, 32X and Bernie Stolar made the bigger PR problem...

You think the operators are to blame now too? Prices depended on the rent cost of the arcade machine too. Operators had no reason to deliberately "sabotage" Sega fighting games with higher prices. SFII was a very old arcade game. Rent would have been lower.

So I don't know if you are just making out my comments into a conspiracy theory here...

Or purposely misquoting or not understanding my post because I'm not praising the PlayStation like it was the most advanced system...

I stated a fact...not an "allegation" don't put smear into my words please.

Big arcades in the U.S. which could afford to buy Virtua Fighter 1, 2, 3, and Sega Model 2, 3 cabinets also had options and suggested coin costs... this was a new thing where it was argued or reported in an article that it was because new arcade machines were more expensive...

If people aren't informed in how to play certain games...then crowds don't build up...and if someone new saw these games they may have tried them but they weren't going like "OH my God!!, 3d polygon graphics and 60fps...let's me keep playing this"

Afaik...Sega's ST-V which did have a good number of arcade games were probably not marketed to the U.S. in the same strategy.... Die Hard Arcade stands out for having impressive 3d graphics of a beat em up genre which had been absent...

Could they have made more 2d games and helped grow the Saturn's library of titles? Actually yes...most titles were blocked during the Stolar reign for being 2d looking fighters and shooters, etc.

I also find your "if it was released on Playstation" argument ridiculous.
We saw many Sega games released on PS2 after the DC died. Did they get huge praise? No.

Those games did have sloppy ports at times losing out on former DC image quality and gameplay...many reviews of the time made mention depending...

Also for the 2001 holiday season...I stilm have an old issue with the cover story being "Too Many Games"

 

[bunge]

You need to formulate your arguments without mentioning "print media".

 

[Exophase]

People don't just go and say "Daytona USA looked bad "a magazine said Saturn is hard to dev for" or "3d titles are the only software worth paying $50-plus USD.

No one is saying that Saturn was hard to develop for because a magazine said so, that is entirely your straw man. You haven't made any arguments to support your assertion that it's as easy to develop for as PS1 (particularly for 3D games). I gave several reasons for why I'd expect it to be more difficult to develop for, but your only rebuttal seems to be that a biased gaming press asserted it and therefore it can't be true.

 

[Nesh]

This makes me wonder if you played those games back then on each system and immediately faulted framerates and pop up clipping.

The Ridge Racer PSX versus Daytona USA Saturn 1995 is mostly a print magazine comparison...the scores and reviews are interesting of the time as they didn't seem too bothered only in making the comparisons.

I never read a print magazine comparison between these two games. This is purely my own opinion.

You should stop assuming that all opinions against the Saturn are the result of the media.

Playing Daytona USA after Ridge Racer and getting over the image and framerates...I didn't find an "unplayable" game...ended up finding a different racer with deeper gameplay mechanics and different race tracks!!

Never said it was unplayable

After extensive gameplay sessions...and versus matches on all three...(yeah I got Toshinden as my second game a week later... speaking U.S. here as Tekken 1 came later) you start to notice that gameplay mechanics make the game more memorable than flashy looks not even SoulBlade held up as Soul Calibur is what really became a bit more playable.

That's why even Virtua Fighter 1 outplays even Tekken 1 with "dial a combos" and cheap ground hits the latter of which was taken out in Tekken 2.

What Tekken 1 did have was the illusion of more characters and endings as well as the alternate Arcade bosses but the game doesn't hold up...

What do you mean a bit more playable? Soul Edge was one of the best weapons based fighting games if not the best at the time. Please stop with the hyperbole fanboyism.

Tekken 1 was a great game. If you prefered VF1 over Tekken1 or if someone prefers Tekken1 over VF1 is all personal preference. Personally I liked Tekken 1 over VF 1 for reasons beyond the number of characters and endings.

If you played Virtua Fighter 1, Remix or VF2 then Toshinden Saturn wouldn't be an issue... as it wasn't as impressive as those...but was actually more re-playable as a fighting game.

Toshinden was more impressive than Tekken and VF when it was released.

Fans may have assumed Toshinden was a conversion...but they were different games with Saturn being a bit more playable in gameplay...also ultimately no matter how pretty the 3d backgrounds looked...they detractdetracted from the gameplay just like SoulBlade.

No they werent different games.
No there was nothing more playable on the Saturn
I dont even know where you get these arguments about "detracting from the gameplay just like Soul Blade". What on earth....is that a serious argument?

So Halo series and Gears of War have to also be on PlayStation? I don't know what you're implying.

??
Imply? I imply nothing. Its very clear what I said. Its games that I wish I could own. Its a compliment for these games

The ugly truth about Tekken is it took until Tekken 3 to finally be truly technically impressive...but even lighting doesn't make that gen game a superior long term technology experience...Tekken 2 was more blocky than JVC Center Ring Boxing...just Tekken 2 had textures on non animated faces, and hands and stiff movement compared to Virtua Fighter 2.

Oh please......

I'm in the U.S....we had no official Sega print magazine or even anything that was properly organized...

You are arguing platform superiority based on magazines, I am not...I am stating how information was only found in multi system magazines which tended to as they say...cater to whoever is paying for ads...use and repeat old misquotes...etc...there is a marketing war with every system generation.

People don't just go and say "Daytona USA looked bad "a magazine said Saturn is hard to dev for" or "3d titles are the only software worth paying $50-plus USD.

Not the magazine argument again. I dont argue platform superiority based on magazines. I argue platdorm superiority based on games and personal experience

A lot of those ideologies were at times pushed in print magazines which kept implying Street Fighter II should have gone polygon yesterday...yet those games...who revisits/prefers them over the 2d alpha/zero ports?

Sorry but I must have missed that issue. I remember experiencing and loving SF 2 before the release of the Saturn and the Playstation. I also remember the SF EX franchise getting less praise than the SF Alpha series or SF3 despite being released exclusively on the more popular Playstation

Nintendo had a faithful fan following back then...it wasn't just "oh no...no Final Fantasy VII...so I'm not buying N64 because Super Mario 64 doesn't run at 30fps" and I'm not talking about stupid consumers... products sell on marketing and brand loyalty...not just price.

Yet the N64 had a very low market share. And come on. It had some pretty good games too. Super Mario was a smooth experience for its time.

You are stating this to ridicule my statements... like I said...the print magazines started to make a big deal out of a sentence a Sega developer made...yet the same year that issue was addressed and apparently resolved was followed by more print magazines copy pasting and the same magazine nearly forgetting the issue was addressed in subsequent issues.

Can you debunk that there wasn't some hugely biased western print gamer media back then?... I wasn't the one who linked the blue shadows...you should read all of that...as they are scans from the dead magazines.

I could mention it plays a factor...but SoA, 32X and Bernie Stolar made the bigger PR problem...

I have no idea what you are talking about.

You are the one coming up with ridiculous statements. You insist that the Saturn failed because of media bias and Bernie Stolar and you ignore the real reasons why Saturn wasnt getting the praise you demanded.

I actually remember multiplatform magazines giving good praise to Saturn games WHEN they deserved it. But such opportunities where obviously few

So I don't know if you are just making out my comments into a conspiracy theory here...

Or purposely misquoting or not understanding my post because I'm not praising the PlayStation like it was the most advanced system...

I stated a fact...not an "allegation" don't put smear into my words please.

Big arcades in the U.S. which could afford to buy Virtua Fighter 1, 2, 3, and Sega Model 2, 3 cabinets also had options and suggested coin costs... this was a new thing where it was argued or reported in an article that it was because new arcade machines were more expensive...

Sega wasnt the only ones making "new arcade machines" werent they?

If people aren't informed in how to play certain games...then crowds don't build up...and if someone new saw these games they may have tried them but they weren't going like "OH my God!!, 3d polygon graphics and 60fps...let's me keep playing this"

I cant remember someone explaining me how to play arcade games. Sega games or not.
I remember many Sega arcade games being very popular at the arcades regardless. If you are talking about VF not being as popular as Tekken, as I said earlier it's all because of Sega's failure with the Saturn

Afaik...Sega's ST-V which did have a good number of arcade games were probably not marketed to the U.S. in the same strategy.... Die Hard Arcade stands out for having impressive 3d graphics of a beat em up genre which had been absent...

Whatever Die Hard Arcade was in the Arcades is irrelevant for the home release when the console is doing badly in the market for so many reasons. Marketed or not the Saturn was going down and DHA was an ok game that wouldnt have saved the Saturn. There was nothing to write about compared to the other aces that were being released at the arcades and consoles at the time

Could they have made more 2d games and helped grow the Saturn's library of titles? Actually yes...most titles were blocked during the Stolar reign for being 2d looking fighters and shooters, etc.

Throwing the blame to Stolar is an amusing argument to this day.

 

[Sonic]

Regarding print media bias against the Saturn. It primarily existed in the minds of Sega fans who owned the Saturn. It was tough being the one guy among your friends who had the system. And to keep seeing your friends bash the system and reading magazine reviews where the PS1 version bests the Saturn version. And then reading interviews with devs being asked questions about which system is easier to develop for or which system has more power, and the answer ends up being PS1.

I really don't recall the Saturn getting treated unfairly. It may have not had the coverage later in its life, but by then PS1 was the dominant platform and N64 was establishing itself in the 2nd place slot. The fact that Saturn was more difficult to develop for and didn't perform as well in multi-platform games is a relevant topic of discussion for gaming magazines of the time. It should be expected that as the gaming market changed to Playstation being the favored console that it would receive more coverage in print media.

I don't necessarily recall Game Players/Ultra GP, Gamefan, Next Generation magazines treating the Saturn unfairly, quite the opposite. EGM, Game Informer, GamePro I didn't have subscriptions to and only read them sparingly when visiting Borders so I can't comment on those. But for the other three I recall reading mostly positive about the Saturn, aside from the obvious stuff about PS1 versions being better but that's a given.

 

[Nesh]

Exactly

I mean here is one of my most memorable examples. This particular issue was my first gaming magazine when I joined the 32 bit generation.
The three greatest games ever on the cover: Super Mario, Nights and Quake.


Regardless it had an interesting interview with one of most favorite third party devs from Sega Saturn fans. And here is some of the things Capcom said:

They were finding Resident Evil difficult to port on the Saturn. We all know how that version looks and it repeats what was said here.


Here they find making Star Gladiator for the Saturn very difficult


Regardless they did make Cyberbots exclusive for the Saturn. And not because the PS1 was having difficulties with 2D. Because marketing and profitability


And here is their general opinion about each console's capabilities in 1996


In other words, no it wasnt Magazine bias. It was how things were

 

[Tahir2]

Comments appreciated.
Did Sega bolt on another SH2 processor after realising the potential power of the Sony Playstation?

 

[Nesh]

Development of the Saturn began in 1992, the same year Sega's groundbreaking 3D Model 1 arcade hardware debuted. Designed around a new CPU from Japanese electronics company Hitachi, another video display processor was incorporated into the system's design in early 1994 to better compete with Sony's forthcoming PlayStation.

Well thats what Wikipedia says