Question about Sony's tech demos vs. the real games.

[ims]

Rabidrabbit there is no need for that type of vulgar outburst on this board. Just uncalled for.

 

[RavenFox]

I don't know who is your source but PSM reported,that the demo was real time at 5 FPS,and that it was sped up post production,in fact the hardware use was 6800 gt in SLI,not even Ultra,it was not real time on E3 but the footage was real time and then sped up for the demo.

http://www.jeux-france.com/news10872_playstation-3-des-precisions.html

Is in french but the scans it has are in english.

Why dont you stop posting crap. Your getting people in a uproar here because you insist on thinking killzone is running on a PS3 somewhere. Get definite facts and stop all the they say 'quotes'.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Rabidrabbit there is no need for that type of vulgar outburst on this board. Just uncalled for.

Well sorry, there was a burst befor me, only with **'s. It was just a reply to that.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The "...stfu" comment from blakjedi was rude and rabidrabbit shouldn't have responed that way....but jedi wouldn't have gotten that type of response if he atleast showed some respect to fellow posters.

As far as how Killzone look completley unbelievable, I would semi-agree...after seeing Project Offsets video with the Orc and the little cube that was throwing out those weird objects. But what throws the argument out the window is the "rendered to spec" comment. All we can do is wait...but honestly..the people who are getting angry about Killzone...what do you expect from a thread thats called " Question about Sony's tech demos vs. the real games".....Killzone has to come up at some point and if its some peoples opinion that the game is operational (even if its 5FPS) so be it....we'll see when the next Killzone comes out.

 

[Thegameman]

Bullshit. I almost get the feeling that dev houses can now use "oh we rendered it 5 FPS and then sped it up" excuse to get a pass on anything remote PS3 related. (terrain demo, etc.)

Just cause it worked for Deano (who is an honest and reliable source) doesnt mean that all of a sudden (after guerilla clearly admitted that it wasnt real) we believe it for KZ regardless of what PSM says...

I say "show me." Show me gameplay with those graphics on real hardware or basically... stfu. This bs has gone on long enough.

Guerrilla say is a representation,which is diferent but if you see the Fight Night demo,that was real time,you see that those models will be perfectly possible,i don't get much into this cuz you people want to make it a hardware thing,i do know that most of the PS2 demos if not all were surpase by PS2 games,even out of the gates.


I was skeptical when i say the Gundam robots,but a demo was show just some week ago in real time,and even that it haved some frame rate problems it say alot about the PS3,lets not forget that GOW had frame rates problem to on the xbox 360 as well,is a problem of time,devs on both console are rushing their games.


Also you don't have to insult me either just by making a comment you don't like.

But a source is a source and PSM has been very reliable they are not OPM, you believe what you whant i believ what i want.

 

[ims]

Well all i wanted to point out is that sometimes youngsters read these boards like me little daughter

Cheers

 

[AlNom]

Thread should be locked. Question was answered, and now the thread is going nowhere.

 

[BTOA]

I was skeptical when i say the Gundam robots,but a demo was show just some week ago in real time,and even that it haved some frame rate problems it say alot about the PS3,lets not forget that GOW had frame rates problem to on the xbox 360 as well,is a problem of time,devs on both console are rushing their games.

Some people forgot about the Gundam demo.

If people remember, Bandai is not known to be a great grahic developer house on the PS2. Even Killzone on the PS2 looked better then Bandai's current PS2 Gundam game.

Example of Bandai's leap in graphics, first or second PS2 game vs first PS3 demo.

VS

A leap in graphics for a crappy developer house like Bandai can only mean a bigger leap for others who are known to produce nice graphics.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Holy crap....putting those pictures together for comparison boggles my mind....Is Bandai taking some type of Visual Development Steroids...if Bandai can do that....then...woah..

 

[blakjedi]

The "...stfu" comment from blakjedi was rude and rabidrabbit shouldn't have responed that way....but jedi wouldn't have gotten that type of response if he atleast showed some respect to fellow posters.

As far as how Killzone look completley unbelievable, I would semi-agree...after seeing Project Offsets video with the Orc and the little cube that was throwing out those weird objects. But what throws the argument out the window is the "rendered to spec" comment. All we can do is wait...but honestly..the people who are getting angry about Killzone...what do you expect from a thread thats called " Question about Sony's tech demos vs. the real games".....Killzone has to come up at some point and if its some peoples opinion that the game is operational (even if its 5FPS) so be it....we'll see when the next Killzone comes out.

Whoa whoa the "stfu" comment was aimed at the whole "KZ footage is teh real!!! My uncle brothers mothers sister PSM told me" phenomenon. It was not directed toward the thegameman or anyone else that's a poster. My apologies if taken that way I was venting at the G4esque crowd not y'all.

Edit: Actually I was really venting at the way all of sudden people (devs?) try to mimic DeanoC's claims of "5fps then sped up" as validity of the demo (if you read the first sentence of my post). Which I still think is... balderdash!

 

[dskneo]

Whoa whoa the "stfu" comment was aimed at the whole "KZ footage is teh real!!! My uncle brothers mothers sister PSM told me" phenomenon. It was not directed toward the thegameman or anyone else that's a poster. My apologies if taken that way I was venting at the G4esque crowd not y'all.

Edit: Actually I was really venting at the way all of sudden people (devs?) try to mimic DeanoC's claims of "5fps then sped up" as validity of the demo (if you read the first sentence of my post). Which I still think is... balderdash!

the questions:
what makes you think KZ3 wasn't real-time?
what makes you think KZ3 was real-time?

- 2 opposite scenarios, and i wont bet my ass in neither of them again this generation.... you know why?
Because i was already forced to eat my words twice when i called HS and Gundam not possible.

It's a weird world with lots of surprises.
I wont waste my words again saying it's 100% CG and not actually real-time speedup to 60fps, ....
If it was possible twice, who knows what else is possible. KZ does not look all that impossible 3 months after the first time, and mostly after seeing Gundam...

Its a bad time to be a fªnboy for either console... things thought impossible to do are being done right now.

 

[mckmas8808]

Some people forgot about the Gundam demo.

If people remember, Bandai is not known to be a great grahic developer house on the PS2. Even Killzone on the PS2 looked better then Bandai's current PS2 Gundam game.

Example of Bandai's leap in graphics, first or second PS2 game vs first PS3 demo.

VS

A leap in graphics for a crappy developer house like Bandai can only mean a bigger leap for others who are known to produce nice graphics.

I will steal your post BTOA so when you see it on other boards please don't get mad. I think it's a perfect point though. For some reason people still don't understand what you are trying to get across. Imagine what devs that made the games like MGS3, God of War, GT4, etc can do. What if their jump from this gen and next gen is the same as Bandai's?

 

[BTOA]

I will steal your post BTOA so when you see it on other boards please don't get mad. I think it's a perfect point though. For some reason people still don't understand what you are trying to get across. Imagine what devs that made the games like MGS3, God of War, GT4, etc can do. What if their jump from this gen and next gen is the same as Bandai's?

No problem.

btw, notice the offset engine when compared to Koei's demo.

1.5 million polygons

On the left is source art comprised of 1.2 million polygons
On the right is the resulting in game model comprised of just a couple thousand polygons

Sounds like the PS3 has no problem doing 64-bit floating point HDR rendering.

 

[London Geezer]

Sounds like the PS3 has no problem doing 64-bit floating point HDR rendering.

Of course it doesn't! Was there ever any doubt? The problem i think might come up is with the highly advertised 128-bit HDR rendering, which might be a bit too much when it comes to demanding applications, as bandwidth will soon finish using that rendering method at high resolutions.

 

[mckmas8808]

Of course it doesn't! Was there ever any doubt? The problem i think might come up is with the highly advertised 128-bit HDR rendering, which might be a bit too much when it comes to demanding applications, as bandwidth will soon finish using that rendering method at high resolutions.

If that is the case then I wonder why Sony and Nvidia talked about it so long at the conference? Not say that your wrong but why spend so much time talking about something if you know it isn't going to be used.

 

[London Geezer]

If that is the case then I wonder why Sony and Nvidia talked about it so long at the conference? Not say that your wrong but why spend so much time talking about something if you know it isn't going to be used.

I'll quote nAo, who can explain this much better than most around here:

128 bit HDR as back buffer format is a complete waste, neither big studios such as ILM use it, AFAIK
Moreover a 128 bits per pixels buffer would eat a huge amount of bandwith and RSX seems to be already a bit costrainted on the memory bandwith side.
In fact I can't understand why nvidia pushed so much 128 HDR rendering at Sony E3 Conference, maybe they were just talking about 128 bit textures (filtering, blending..) , not 128 bits render targets.
Or maybe they have developed a new color buffer compression scheme that works well with 128 bits buffers and can make them useable, but why someone should work with them when 64 bits buffers are enough most of the time I don't know..
THere could be a third case...they want to make sure SPEs can work on stuff RSX has rendered, and I bet SPEs haven't specific instructions to convert a 64bits vec4 to a 128bits vec4 and viceversa, so Nvidia has made possible to output 128bits pixels in order to make SPEs life a lot better.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

On the left is source art comprised of 1.2 million polygons
On the right is the resulting in game model comprised of just a couple thousand polygons

Both wireframe shots are from Zbrush, an application widely used for sculpting million-polygon models (we also have a Maya-to-Zbrush pipeline here). Neither wireframes are from a realtime engine. And probably both games are using only a few thousand polygons per character.
Upping poly count has other ramifications, from shadow rendering to skinning and such. Don't expect a jump of three orders of magnitude (ie. from thousands to millions)...

The KZ movie had, BTW, insane polygon counts, and this has been beaten to death several times already.

Sounds like the PS3 has no problem doing 64-bit floating point HDR rendering.

I can't see how the two images and this are related...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I'll quote nAo, who can explain this much better than most around here:
128 bit HDR as back buffer format is a complete waste, neither big studios such as ILM use it, AFAIK

Most highend movie VFX work is done in some 10/12 bit logarithmich format, because that's how the studios get the scanned film. No reason to go over that precision in the compositing... CG layers are usually rendered in 16 bit float color formats. But most studios include a lot of other data like depth, surface normal, material channel, and separate color, diffuse, shadow passes and so on. New file formats like OXR allow them to pack all these separate images into a single file.

All-CG productions like animated features and game cinematics probably stick with 8-bit or 16-bit integer, or 16-bit float formats. Depends on the needs of the production and the background infrastructure (file server, network speed).

128 bit color buffers are used internally in some renderers but I'm not sure which they are. Geometry is always calculated in very high precision.

 

[Jawed]

If that is the case then I wonder why Sony and Nvidia talked about it so long at the conference? Not say that your wrong but why spend so much time talking about something if you know it isn't going to be used.

128-bit "HDR" is a feature of the 6800U - you'll never see 128-bit HDR in any games running on PS3 - 64-bits are enough.

It's called hype. 128-bits sounds way better than 64-bits, doesn't it?

Jawed

 

[zidane1strife]

128-bit "HDR" is a feature of the 6800U - you'll never see 128-bit HDR in any games running on PS3 - 64-bits are enough.

It's called hype. 128-bits sounds way better than 64-bits, doesn't it?

Jawed

Yeah, but it's still a bit intriguing that they focused so much time on it, iirc, they could've just sticked it in the spec sheets in bold letters, and say it in a grandiose manner once. Maybe they've come up with a way to make it viable, or some new tricks that could use such, though, unlikely.

PS
Just saw wardevil stuff, that is truly next gen, no mistaking it with this one...

IF wardevil's latest pics and footage are indeed realtime than I've no doubt KZ's possible.

edited