"PSX" incompatibilities...

[Deadmeat]

...

so why did they design it this way.

Because the PSX2 compatibility was not a high priority, at least according to the guy who was in charge of its development. PSX2OAC was used as a GPU accelerator, and the "PSX"'s audio subsystem is supposed to be different from PSX2.

The way I suspect, the "PSX" is probably built around some kind of DSP SOC core with PSX2OAC thrown in as a videocard, and the DSP SOC doubling as the I/O engine. With a configuration like this, the compatibility cannot be 100%, especially those that attempt to access the hardware directly.

 

[Rodéric]

Re: ...

Because the PSX2 compatibility

For the record, the first one is the PS or PSOne or PS1, the second one is the PS2 and the new one, which comes from the PS2 is the PSX.
There's no such a thing as the "PSX2".

 

[jvd]

Re: ...

Because the PSX2 compatibility

For the record, the first one is the PS or PSOne or PS1, the second one is the PS2 and the new one, which comes from the PS2 is the PSX.
There's no such a thing as the "PSX2".

unless you listen to the early advertising that dubbed the ps the psx so that would make the ps2 the psx2 and the psx ... something

 

[Fafalada]

With a configuration like this, the compatibility cannot be 100%, especially those that attempt to access the hardware directly.

No, with a configuration like this (you propose no IOP chip in PS2 part), the compatibility would be a flat 0%.

I explained very clearly why USB things happens, learn to live with it.

 

[cthellis42]

Re: ...

unless you listen to the early advertising that dubbed the ps the psx so that would make the ps2 the psx2 and the psx ... something

And if you listen to development codenames, press references, and early nicknames then a lot of things have a lot of goofy names. (I could talk about Hammers and Clawhammers and Sledgehammers all day, but why wouldn't I use their actual names?) Since there actually IS an officially designated PSX now, all it is is being confusing on purpose. Especially when in a thread talking about said PSX. Some places--like websites--got stuck by adopting the PSX moniker years ago and indeed continued the trend to use "PSX2" when starting a PS2-dedicated board, and/or started well before anything was officially launched and named (and/or grabbed it because the "PS2"-named equivalent site was already registered to someone else), but there has never been a "PSX2" in official nomenclature or advertising or in the press since its launch. It's fine to refer to it as the nickname for the PS1 (I used it myself for a long time), but not just continuing the trend but also using a made-up equivalent in the face of the actually-named PSX (not to mention constantly putting it in quotes as if it is not "truly" named that) is foolish. It'll take a bit for the public at large to fully recognize it (pretty much, it'll take until it gets launched out here and advertised so people recognize it), so might warrant the occasional reminder of terminology, but certainly not on here, and doing the most-proper thing and shifting to PS1--which falls right in logical order with the pattern of the following models PS2 and PS3 (which have only, ever been the official referecens)--is simplicity in itself.

This particular conversation has been done to death, and it just as stupid as ever.

ANYway... Sony's decision regarding the sole USB port is rather mystifying. That there is only one of them is foolish (though it's safe to say that no one is buying THAT machine for the gaming focus, which is the only place it will really come into conflict, it is still pretty stupid to not throw in one more), but even moreso I think that they're not 2.0 (or that there's not a FireWire port on the thing) so that it can properly transfer digital video from cameras. I mean, if it's going to have some video editing capabilities, it doesn't make much sense to restrict it to only what's recorded on it directly (and I guess what you transfer in from the network port, which just adds more steps and more devices).

Meanwhile on the compatability front, we likely won't know where the actual problem lies. If they are indeed ennumerating ports, then they may well have problems on the PS2 as well if one has been left occupied. Certainly you can switch the ports, but it's also foolish and unnecessary to program in that way, and something one would NEVER want to see regarding PC devices. (I hadn't heard about any multi-tap problems before. Any other place have more of the what/why?)

A lot of the PSX has been rushed to make the holiday launch date, and likely also has a lot of corners shaved cost-wise, but hopefully in the following months--as costs lower and they are not affected by a deadline--they'll work at relieving the problems and including all the features they wanted to with an upgrade. (They can also hone in on consumer desire through sales comparison and feedback from their buyers.) They've got a stand-up little machine there (barring any technical disasters), and it wouldn't take much more tweaking to make it wholly stand-out.

 

[maskrider]

Certainly a software problem, even GT4 Prologue requires you to plug the wheel to USB port 1.

 

[Fafalada]

Certainly you can switch the ports, but it's also foolish and unnecessary to program in that way, and something one would NEVER want to see regarding PC devices.

Fixed platform - only one requirement, people sometimes take a little 'too' much advantage of that.
Obviously in case of USB ports locking specs is a bad idea even on PS2 though as you can always extend them by connecting hubs.

Certainly a software problem, even GT4 Prologue requires you to plug the wheel to USB port 1.

Axel Impact doesn't

 

[cthellis42]

Fixed platform - only one requirement, people sometimes take a little 'too' much advantage of that.
Obviously in case of USB ports locking specs is a bad idea even on PS2 though as you can always extend them by connecting hubs.

Well if course I know WHY we don't see it on PC, but it's not something I want to see be a problem on the PS2 either just because I keep a light-gun usually plugged in. Why would anyone specifically program that way anyway? It seems like all it would do is create problems without giving any advantages. Laziness or a holdover from programmers of a previous era who hadn't needed to support devices through USB ports before?

 

[rabidrabbit]

Impress Watch has some pics of PSX innards.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/1213/psx3.htm

 

[maskrider]

Looks to me the PSX is using NEC's Ghost Removing chip at the tuner board and may be another NEC 3D Y/C video decoder at the big board.

MPEG-2 encoder/decoder looks to me like from Panasonic, can't see clearly the others.

They are the current best chips for the job as far as I know.

 

[maskrider]

PSX sold 100K units in the first week, really damn hot.

Ripped from Gaming-Age forum

Sony Upbeat About Year-End Sales, PSX Demand Strong

TOKYO, Jan 6 (Reuters) - Electronics and entertainment giant Sony Corp <6758.T> said on Tuesday that year-end sales were "extremely good," pointing to strong sales for DVD recorders, the PlayStation 2 (PS2) game console and the all-in-one PSX.

The October-December quarter accounts for about one-third of Sony's annual revenues and a majority of its operating profits and is seen by analysts as the make-or-break period for the consumer electronics company.

Sony Chief Executive Nobuyuki Idei told reporters at a gathering of business executives the year-end period produced extremely good results thanks to strong consumer spending in the United States.

However, he declined to comment on what type of impact the strong sales would have on quarterly results, due out on January 28.

Analysts have said that buoyant U.S. demand should also help Sony's main rivals -- Matsushita Electric Industrial Co Ltd <6752.T>, maker of the Panasonic brand, and South Korea's Samsung Electronics Co Ltd <005930.KS> -- score strong Christmas holiday sales.

Sony is banking on 2004 being a better year than 2003, which was marred by the "Sony shock" -- a $1 billion quarterly loss announced in April -- and restructuring announced in October that calls for a 13 percent cut in its global work force in the next three years.

It hopes to improve its fortunes by rolling out cutting-edge products, such as PSX, an entertainment system that includes a hard disk drive (HDD) and DVD recorder plus a PS2 game machine,

Sony Executive Deputy President Ken Kutaragi, who built the PlayStation into the world's dominant game machine, told Reuters that the PSX is selling out in stores.

"We sold 100,000 PSXs in the first week. It sells for almost 100,000 yen ($941) and it still sold out. There are no products out there that can say that," said Kutaragi.

The machine, powered by the same microprocessor at the heart of the PS2 console, went on sale on December 13 in Japan amid a flurry of media attention.

Kutaragi, also responsible for the company's strategy at its games and electronics divisions, said Sony grabbed the top market share for DVD recorders with hard disk drives in December at 35 percent, overtaking leader Matsushita Electric Industrial.

"This is probably the impact of the new products," said a spokesman from Matsushita, adding that Matsushita's share was around the same as Sony's 35 percent.

"For the full year, we expect that things will even out and we will still come out on top."

Sony was slow to enter the DVD recorder market with a share of around one percent only a few months ago, but the PSX and its new "sugoroku" -- roughly translated as "great recording" -- lineup has helped strengthen its position.

 

[Lazy8s]

In recently launching the PSX, Sony was unscrupulous. They continued to have retailers take many thousands of pre-orders for some all-in-one set-top device even though they'd decided to themselves to downspec and strip it of significant functionality long before. They then proceeded to manufacture a sizeable launch shipment (with the adjusted casing design and everything to reflect its fewer supported features) and only got around to quietly releasing news of the change on the eve of the launch.

Consumers holding pre-orders and those anticipating the machine's introduction were left with very little opportunity to reconsider their purchase on news $ony could have revealed far in advance. There's a case for fraud here under bait-and-switch.

 

[maskrider]

Unless there is evidence that a large portion of the 100K sold units are pre-orders, I don't how pre-orders relate to the unit sold out at the retail outlets (in Japan). I think the people who decided to pre-order it knew well enough that first batch Sony budget gadget products will be like that. Even if they don't announce the spec change, there will be something not functioning really well and need to be fixed by a firmware upgrade.

Considering the available options, the PSX is a budget DVD-R/HDD recorder even without the built-in PS2.

My friends (who don't play games) are hoping Sony will produce a PAL unit for Hong Kong sooner than later.

 

[Lazy8s]

maskrider:

Unless there is evidence that a large portion of the 100K sold units are pre-orders,

The only thing the amount of pre-orders determines is the potential size for a class-action lawsuit!

I don't how pre-orders relate to the unit sold out at the retail outlets (in Japan).

Pre-ordered customers get priority for its launch availability.

Considering the available options, the PSX is a budget DVD-R/HDD recorder even without the built-in PS2.

But they continued to advertise a product for launch that supposedly also had:
MP3 playback
DVD+RW playback
CD-R playback
24x HDD to DVD recording speed
Compatibility with the PlayStationBB service
Compatibility with GIF and TIFF static image formats
Capability for Cybershot movie format downloads

 

[Vince]

But they continued to advertise a product for launch that supposedly also had:
MP3 playback
DVD+RW playback
CD-R playback
24x HDD to DVD recording speed
Compatibility with the PlayStationBB service
Compatibility with GIF and TIFF static image formats
Capability for Cybershot movie format downloads

And didn't Sony state that they would add support in the future for these features via it's internet ability? I realize some people just like to bitch, but for right now we need to take them at their word and, IMHO, if I could either enjoy the device over Christmas and get the features later, or wait for them to be added and get the product well into the New Years... guess which I'd pick.

Bait-&-Switch my ass.

 

[kaching]

A class action lawsuit for a product that you can just return to the store if you discover that it doesn't do what you expected it to do? Wouldn't that be tremendous overkill?

 

[Lazy8s]

Vince:

I realize some people just like to bitch, but for right now we need to take them at their word and, IMHO, if I could either enjoy the device over Christmas and get the features later, or wait for them to be added and get the product well into the New Years... guess which I'd pick.

I'd pick the one where they inform consumers first when they decide to alter a product that many are anticipating and placing orders for. They needed to change the out-of-date promotions when they decided to downgrade the product. It's about being upfront with your customers.

Bait-&-Switch my ass.

Quite simply, bait-and-switch is when a business advertises a deal they don't intend to honor in order to get consumer attention and sell them on instead a higher-cost and/or lower-valued (lower quality, less features, etc.) item.

 

[Lazy8s]

kaching:

A class action lawsuit for a product that you can just return to the store if you discover that it doesn't do what you expected it to do? Wouldn't that be tremendous overkill?

That really depends on how cooperative Sony will be with retailers and customers on handling complaints and making things right.

 

[kaching]

I can't claim to know much about Japanese retail practice but unless they simply don't allow returns of any type over there, I don't really see how Sony has to get involved at all. If the packaging and instructional material hasn't been changed and refers to omitted features that have since been taken out, it's as much the retailers responsibility to accept that a customer would want to return the product.

Of course, 100K of units have been bought and so far we haven't seen any backlash that would suggest the packaging or documentation is fraudulent, which is the only way I think you could truly claim a bait and switch tactic is in place. So if the packaging and documentation doesn't refer to anything that isn't a current working feature of the PSX then it really falls to the customer to make sure they know what they're buying, esp. when its an expensive item like this.

I mean, hell, most of us don't live in Japan and won't have the opportunity to buy this in our home region for months and we've still been fully aware of what changes Sony has made to the PSX before it even went on sale in Japan. If we can do it, I would hope someone who's about to plunk 100,000 yen on one of these can too.

 

[Lazy8s]

kaching:

I can't claim to know much about Japanese retail practice but unless they simply don't allow returns of any type over there, I don't really see how Sony has to get involved at all.

Sony has an obligation to support the retailers carrying their products, especially when the fault at least partially lies with them.

Of course, 100K of units have been bought and so far we haven't seen any backlash that would suggest the packaging or documentation is fraudulent, which is the only way I think you could truly claim a bait and switch tactic is in place.

A company doesn't have to sneak you a worthless replacement product behind your back to be fraudulent. There are some federally upheld ethics for marketing (yes, in Japan too.)

Think about it like this: Companies could do many things to try and get your attention for their wares. For one, they could call you on the phone at inappropriate hours to pitch their product, knowing there's a much greater chance they'll manage to reach you. Of course, the company could try to justify it by claiming their schedule ran over and some of their sales calls were inadvertently made too late in the day, and that "the customer can always just say 'no' - it's not like they were forced into it". But, as we're seeing with new telemarketing standards coming into place (and with established harassment laws), there are regulated guidelines to the approaches a company can use to gain attention... bait-and-switch being one.

Any case against a company has to show they knowingly persisted with misleading advertisements in order to gain orders/sales. Again, Sony should have changed their out-of-date promotions, or informed retailers to stop accepting orders for the old device, when they decided to downgrade the product. It's pretty standard.