PSU is Going?

Skrying

S K R Y I N G
Veteran
Okay, some of you saw my video card thread, and now I think I know what caused it and I think it tried to take the rest of the system.....

My second hard drive on the system started making seeking sounds, you know the sound older HD's made. Well this drive (IDE, 7200RPM, 80GB, Maxtor) started making those. This is the same system weird I started getting video errors and weird barcodes on the screen when the system was doing heavy 3D work.

Well, I think the PSU is starting to go. Would anyone else think this could explain the two problems? Any advice would be great, hopefully I can get a replacement PSU soon. Ugh, such terrible timing.
 
Definitely take it "in to the shop" to have a replacement PSU tested on it. It may already be too late if the HDD is making such noises.

Is this PC overclocked? With a PCI lock (33Mhz)?

Something is definitely wonky on a fundamental level when problems begin to migrate. I would advise you to stop using the computer and have it thoroughly checked out with replacements parts here and there (temporary), but start with the PSU and maybe even the IDE cables. I am not sure what other thread you were referring to and am feeling too lazy to dig.:oops:

I thought you built PCs and operated a PC shop, or do I have you confused with someone else?
 
I do own my own shop. I have my multimeter at the shop though, and I wont be going back in till Monday. I'll take it with me then though and test out the voltages and try another PSU from my test system.

Right now though I wont have any money to buy replacement parts till after the holidays. Such an expensive time of the year.
 
Skrying said:
I do own my own shop. I have my multimeter at the shop though, and I wont be going back in till Monday. I'll take it with me then though and test out the voltages and try another PSU from my test system.

Right now though I wont have any money to buy replacement parts till after the holidays. Such an expensive time of the year.

So, it's not overclocked and if it were it would be using the PCI lock? ;)

Just a thought here, but do you have any reason to suspect that it may have been the HDD causing the problems all along? Could the video problems have been due to corrupt data from the HDD? What about evidence of HDD data corruption is general?

The reason I ask is because even a bad IDE cable can cause data corruption (obviously) and the clicking HDD noise as the HDD will reset often due to the instability of its interface with the controller on the mainboard.
 
Its not overclocked, never has been.

Its not the IDE ribbon, because the main HD is also on this line. The HD that is giving the problems is on this same ribbon. This setup has worked fine for a good 6 months now, and the PSU is actually turning 1 year old this month.

The reason I belive its the secondary HD, the music HD, is because I was getting read/write warnings on the taskbar popping up. Nothing was noticable till then, then when I tried playing some music after a little bit with Winamp the songs would stop playing, I went to My Computer and couldnt get anything to come up without it freezing.

Unplugging the second HD and the computer works fine, though I didnt test any games (I should have).

System is as follows:

A64 2800+ @ default clocks
MSI K8T Neo-FSR Via K8T800 chipset
1GB 3200 Crucial, default settings
BFG 6800 OC, was unlocked for a bit but set it to defaults, still getting barcodes etc on screen
2x 80GB IDE Maxtor HD's, 7200RPM
Audigy 2
Pioneer DVD burner

That's the wholeset up. Its powered by an Antec Tru Power 480watt. All into an X-Dreamer II case. Cheap but powerful system for the most part and the whole thing has been great till now.

I'm gonna check the leads on Monday hopefully and be able to test a secondary PSU in it.
 
Skrying said:
I'm gonna check the leads on Monday hopefully and be able to test a secondary PSU in it.

That sound like a good plan. However, if it is the PSU, the damage to the drive may already be done so you may be dealing with a primary and a secondary problem at this point in time.

I wouldn't be so quick to write off the IDE ribbon. The problems are often at the connectors so it may still partially work. This is why newer/fancier IDE ribbons have a pull tab to make sure the pressure is spread evenly when removed. On older ones you frequently had to pull grabbing the ribbon itself and tearing at the internal punch-through in the connector.

This may not be the case at all. I only bring this up because I once had some HDD problems, much like you describe, and had a heck of a time locating the problem. I didn't suspect the cable because it is so simple, but, sure enough, a replacement cable fixed everything (except the damage alreayd done, of course) and upon closer inspection the cable I had been using had come apart slightly at one connector and the wires had migrated (ever so slightly).

A software motherboard voltage monitor/probe might give you some clues until you have access to a multimeter. It may even be better because you have 3 voltages that need monitoring. If your mainboard didn't come with one, try using MBM and see if you are getting flux on the rails under high load. You may want to run a CPU intensive task like Prime95 alongside a GPU intensive one such as RTHDRIBL. This is, of course, very "dangerous" as you are stressing the components in search of failure. Success may mean catastrophe. Play with care.
 
Already ran SuperPi for about two hours last night in search of a possible CPU issue, it ran fine. I'll check out Prime95 next, just to try to mark the CPU off.

I've thought about doing MBM, havent used that tool in a good while. I'll check out the ribbon on Monday as well, untill I'll probably keep the computer off.

Thanks for the help.
 
Skrying said:
Already ran SuperPi for about two hours last night in search of a possible CPU issue, it ran fine. I'll check out Prime95 next, just to try to mark the CPU off.

I've thought about doing MBM, havent used that tool in a good while. I'll check out the ribbon on Monday as well, untill I'll probably keep the computer off.

Thanks for the help.

I meant to run them together, not only for the sake of stressing for computational errors, but to put maximum load on the PSU. That is when it will fail if it is fluxing/sporadic as may be your case.

Glad to be of help. Hope you don't lose any valuable data.
 
I'll run them together in a bit.

These are the readings MBM is giving me:

+3.3 is at 3.28, +5.00 is at 5.00, +12.00 is at 11.81, -12.00 is at -11.61, and -5.00 is at -5.09.

The +12 and -12 are not looking to great.

Gonna do a bit of stress testing.

BTW: No I'm not worried about losting anything important on this system. My music is saved on our home file server and on my Zen Touch, and this system gets a format every two months, just formated a month ago so its not enough time to accumulate lots of stuff.
 
Skrying said:
I'll run them together in a bit.

These are the readings MBM is giving me:

+3.3 is at 3.28, +5.00 is at 5.00, +12.00 is at 11.81, -12.00 is at -11.61, and -5.00 is at -5.09.

The +12 and -12 are not looking to great.

Gonna do a bit of stress testing.

BTW: No I'm not worried about losting anything important on this system. My music is saved on our home file server and on my Zen Touch, and this system gets a format every two months, just formated a month ago so its not enough time to accumulate lots of stuff.

The negative voltage readings don't mean anything on modern (ATX) mainboards. They are not used and whatever number they may spew out is just nonsense.

All the readings are within spec, but I'd keep a close eye on those numbers when the system goes under extended load. With a good (enough) PSU and system the numbers should not flinch. The dynamic voltage regulation of the CPU may cause some small jitters in the readings, but these should be undetectable and well within spec. I wouldn't base my readings on that, I am just bringing it up because Asus, amongst others (depending on mainboard) use dynamic voltage on the CPU to increase stability. Basically they are over-volting the CPU slightly "just to make sure," but some mainboards also experience droop due to this setup.

I see your PSU has dual 12 volt lines. Have you tried swapping them around or how is that configured? I am not familiar with Antec PSUs. I also see that it has a dynamic feedback mechanism for voltage regulation, which promises a +-3% band. In that case you are outside it. Never underestimate a good thing going bad, a regulator being faulty and going in the wrong direction.

Has this computer ever powered down completely under load, forcing you to power off and on the PSU to get it running?
 
+3.3 under load drops to 3.26. +5 goes up to 5.09. And the +12 dropped as low as 11.73 but jumped up and down between that and 11.80. As soon as load started these changes happened rather quick.

I'm rather lacking in knowledge for PSU's.
 
Hmmm. Technically speaking, those numbers are still within spec and being within 5% is very good. That, however, does not mean that the PSU is not to blame. In this case, the averaged out values may not be the ones of importance, but extremely brief spikes that upset the system. It is possible that the automatically adjusting nature of your PSU is causing the problem.

It's very difficult to troubleshoot something like this over the Net by shooting words across the wire. Heck, it's even difficult when you are sitting at the equipment in question. I would try swapping out that PSU the first chance you get and see what happens and then move on from there. If you have another video card that is less power hungry you may also want to try that, but that may only disguise the problem.

Checked your temperatures? Dusted out the case and components? (that includes the PSU. You may want to put a hand on it to feel how hot it is.)
 
Temps are okay. CPU heats 50C at load, stock heatsink. GPU hits 85C at load. PSU feels normal as far as heat. All fans are clean, everything heat wise seems fine.

I'm gonna try that PSU on Monday. And try a different card if I have an AGP laying around.

One thing I've noticed. Since I unhooked the secondary HD, when the screen gets the barcodes I can simply open a new window and they go away, there is no more locking up. Not sure what this means yet, any clue?
 
Skrying said:
Temps are okay. CPU heats 50C at load, stock heatsink. GPU hits 85C at load. PSU feels normal as far as heat. All fans are clean, everything heat wise seems fine.

I'm gonna try that PSU on Monday. And try a different card if I have an AGP laying around.

One thing I've noticed. Since I unhooked the secondary HD, when the screen gets the barcodes I can simply open a new window and they go away, there is no more locking up. Not sure what this means yet, any clue?

That GPU temp looks a bit high, but you say you have problems even when it's relatively "idle" on a 2D desktop, right? I would suspect the video card if it weren't for the fact that you are also having problems with the HDD.

It might be interesting to use Coolbits or some other NV tweaking program to underclock the GPU and VRAM to see if this helps solve the problem.

This difference of behavior when you unhook the secondary HDD suggests that it is involved in the crashes. I completely forgot to ask you if you had looked at the event logs for any hints. I forget the exact error name/code, but HDD resets should be reported there (someting like: IDE0 timeout).

It's dangeorus to guess without having all the information or the system in front of me to see it for myself. It could be the PSU and it already took the HDD and GPU with it (or at least still causing them to temporarily malfunction). It could just be two independent problems with the secondary HDD and the video card and your PSU is fine.

A detailed history of the progress of the problems might reveal more.

Here's the thing: I don't see why a secondary HDD failure would cause video corruption. It doesn't seem to be, because this problem still persists with that drive removed. But...it no longer hard locks, like you say, with that drive detached. This, to me, would suggest a common point of failure and that would be the PSU (it could also be the mainboard, CPU, RAM, but this you seem to have verfied independently).

One more thing: that click you hear (like the "seek on old drives") is most likely a HDD reset of the actuator. It may also be performing a spin-down/spin-up and this means that it would be the most power demanding state the HDD can be in. If something is wrong, this is the time it will "burn". This plays into the theory and events you see with the non-hard lock-up when the drive is removed. You are opening a window, drives are scanned, drive fails, drive cycles to re-attempt a read, power draw is increased, "bar codes" appear on screen (???). Perhaps that is the wrong order.

The more I think about it, the more I feel you should not be testing this system unless you are also willing to lose your primary HDD. If you continue, at least make sure you have adequate cooling (perhaps remove the side panel on the case).

Just out of curiosity, when you unlocked your video card's extra pipelines, how did you do this and did you reverse the process exactly or is there a possibility you disabled some other pipelines when going back?

PS. I am mainly rambling now (I am so curious that my brain is running all tangents and permutations). Be wary of using any advice in here. ;)
 
I got it fixed... sorta. After some testing with a friend of mine and his multimeter and a old Geforce 2 Mx200, a little bit of swapping and some fun. We've came to the conclusion that the PSU is fine, the graphics card is out and the HD failure is probably completely unrelated.

With the new (old) card in the issues do not come in anymore, even with the failing HD installed. So we booted onto the Ultimate Boot Disk and did a HD test and sure enough we could reproduce the sound and got a failure in the stress test. Its unplugged now and I'm planning on recovering the data as soon as I buy some more DVDs.

We also tried the 6800 in a different PC, produced similair issues. The card is going back in for RMA on Monday. Hopefully BFG plays nice and I can get it back soon.

Thanks for the help wireframe.
 
Skrying said:
Thanks for the help wireframe.

No problem. I hope it really was help and not just theory. ;)

I would be interested to read the resolution to this problem once you have it completely fixed.
 
Skrying said:
Okay, some of you saw my video card thread, and now I think I know what caused it and I think it tried to take the rest of the system.....

My second hard drive on the system started making seeking sounds, you know the sound older HD's made. Well this drive (IDE, 7200RPM, 80GB, Maxtor) started making those. This is the same system weird I started getting video errors and weird barcodes on the screen when the system was doing heavy 3D work.

Well, I think the PSU is starting to go. Would anyone else think this could explain the two problems? Any advice would be great, hopefully I can get a replacement PSU soon. Ugh, such terrible timing.

a good way to do a quick check is to go into the BIOS and if you see your voltages swinging wildly then your PSU is the culprit
 
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