PS4, Xbox One: Indie publishing

[Shifty Geezer]

Sorry I disagree. Worms is as indie as Angry Birds.

Angry Birds was definitely indie! I agree with your definition that indie denotes a...fringe title, but I also disagree. It all depends how one is using the term, and it can be used several ways. Indie officially means independently developed without a publisher controlling the studio. This meant the studio had complete artistic freedom and is why indie titles could be so diverse. But now, due to language changes, indie is starting to refer to the style of studio rather than the official root definition. So Insomniac's Sunset Overdrive on XB1 isn't an indie title because Insomniac are a big developer and not a tiny bedroom studio, unlike Young Horses with Octodad. The problem with that sort of definition is where you draw the line. The official definition is usefully exact, but doesn't fit with people's perception of an indie studio. We really do need better definitions!

But for MS's purposes, Team17 are every bit as independent as Housemarque, and Worms, no matter how unoriginal, is an independent game every bit as much as Resogun (in fact moreso, because it's not platform exclusive or developed under contract to a publisher).

If you want to try this another way, what is your definition of indie? See how that matches up with other indie libraries like PSN and Steam.

 

[Brad Grenz]

If you look around it's not that uncommon for a developer/publisher to be owned by a publisher/distributor. You going to ignore Activision Blizzard too?

If you had tried to argue Blizzard was an indie I would have told you that was wrong for the same reason.

Anyway, in this case it's probably a bit silly to use a history of publishing Amiga software 20 years ago to say Team 17 can't be considered independent today. They've operated as an independent development studio for much longer at this point than they ever lasted as a publisher in the 90s.

It's amazing that there is so much confusion around the term. "Indies" are simply developers who are financially independent (usually of a publisher or platform holder, but I would also disqualify publicly held companies as well). The fact that the word has taken on other connotations does not change that fact. How big they are, what kind of games they make, whether they self publish or sign publishing deals with third parties and whether they work on original IP or simply do contract work is all immaterial to the "indie" label.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The fact that the word has taken on other connotations does not change that fact.

That's not quite true, because words take on meanings as they are used. The ultimate decider on the meaning of a word isn't some dictionary but the people that use it. eg. 'Pathetic' means 'rubbish, lacking quality, poorly implemented', and not 'evoking pathos' - 'that film was pathetic'. Or Giga = 2^30 when used with bytes because people wanted a prefix and hijacked the existing base 10 one.

People need a word to talk about small studios producing odd games. The word used to refer to them thus far is indie, hence they adopt that word and then indie comes to mean precisely that.

 

[London Geezer]

If you want to try this another way, what is your definition of indie? See how that matches up with other indie libraries like PSN and Steam.

It end to think of indie games the same way as indie movies, which most people would define as 'small studio, small budget' films.
Which, now that I think about it, yeah I don't think today's budget for Worms is very high. Or that the studio making it is large. But only because they just keep re releasing the same game over and over again, more or less.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The thing with that is, Worm's is where they make their money. Team17 actually tried to produce different games in the past but couldn't get a publisher to support them. With the download platforms and less requirement for publishers they've actually produced more varied titles (although admittedly old) like Alien Breed and Superfrog. I expect Worms is just a trusted franchise that'll make money to pay the bills and possibly pay for them to try something different. But we can't begrudge a company trying to make a living producing titles that have a proven potential to do that. I don't think the term 'indie' can be defined in terms of variety of output of a developer.

Think of T17 as an indie developer with a single product. (not really true, but it is overwhelmingly tied to that franchise).

 

[dobwal]

The thing with that is, Worm's is where they make their money. Team17 actually tried to produce different games in the past but couldn't get a publisher to support them. With the download platforms and less requirement for publishers they've actually produced more varied titles (although admittedly old) like Alien Breed and Superfrog. I expect Worms is just a trusted franchise that'll make money to pay the bills and possibly pay for them to try something different. But we can't begrudge a company trying to make a living producing titles that have a proven potential to do that. I don't think the term 'indie' can be defined in terms of variety of output of a developer.

Think of T17 as an indie developer with a single product. (not really true, but it is overwhelmingly tied to that franchise).

More like an independent studio that has historically used various methods for publishing their titles. Some Worm games are indie titles (wholly financed and self published by Team 17) while others have received some form of financial support from outside publishers.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's like many indies though. If you're an independent developer trying to make a living, it'd be somewhat financially stupid to refuse an offer of work for a publisher on account of wanting to be true to some idealised view of what it is to be independent. If the offer makes business sense (Insomniac or Housemarque being offered an exclusive platform deal for a title), go for it, like any other creative industry when one lands a commission.

 

[London Geezer]

That's like many indies though. If you're an independent developer trying to make a living, it'd be somewhat financially stupid to refuse an offer of work for a publisher on account of wanting to be true to some idealised view of what it is to be independent. If the offer makes business sense (Insomniac or Housemarque being offered an exclusive platform deal for a title), go for it, like any other creative industry when one lands a commission.

Well I think the whole Team 17 being an indie or not debacle can be solved easily... Wikipedia is always right...

Team17 is still an independent games studio with around 75 staff members. This makes it one of the longest surviving independent developers, now into its 25th year (it turned 24 on Dec 5, 2013).

 

[dobwal]

That's like many indies though. If you're an independent developer trying to make a living, it'd be somewhat financially stupid to refuse an offer of work for a publisher on account of wanting to be true to some idealised view of what it is to be independent. If the offer makes business sense (Insomniac or Housemarque being offered an exclusive platform deal for a title), go for it, like any other creative industry when one lands a commission.

Agreed.

I think "indie" appended as a label to a dev has a different meaning than when "indie" is appended to a game.

An indie title is simply a game developed by an independent dev with no financial support from an outside pub.

An indie dev can be used to label a independent dev who completely finances the development and publishing of all their titles. Or it can be used simply to denote a independent dev regardless of what type of work they do. Team 17 has produced indie titles as well as worked as a third party dev for pubs on the pubs' own IPs.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah, I go with that. Indie games and indie developers are different things.

 

[Jwm]

That's like many indies though. If you're an independent developer trying to make a living, it'd be somewhat financially stupid to refuse an offer of work for a publisher on account of wanting to be true to some idealised view of what it is to be independent. If the offer makes business sense (Insomniac or Housemarque being offered an exclusive platform deal for a title), go for it, like any other creative industry when one lands a commission.

I had an offer that I had to turn down, and it was sexy (not in that way!). I just don't have the time to even complete my own projects, between my son's school/tutoring/swim and 2-month old twins. I only find myself truly free to work late in the evening. I once took a huge financial leap, but with three kids I am not willing to do that again. Go back 15-years and I would have jumped at the opportunity I was given a few months back without even looking.

I will say that Unity is going to save me time, although I will miss the engine that I have been working with for a bit. It oddly started out from something Noggy (Dust on XBLA) had pointed me towards and my partner and I really made it something cool and fun to work with. I will start moving that into Unity later this year when I can squeeze more time for it. I think Unity will be at least twice as fast for getting things on to the screen, feature creep always slowed me down with adding new bits to the engine. Anyway, don't want to sound like a commercial so I will say good night. :smile:

 

[AzBat]

ID@Xbox games first look at GDC...

• “1001 Spikes” by Nicalis – This hardcore side-scroller features precise controls and a degree of difficulty that means starting with 1001 lives is not at all a guarantee you can make it through the game! Every level is custom designed to be beaten… barely. The game also includes co-op and cutthroat multiplayer modes.
• “Calibre 10 Racing Series” by Bongfish GmbH – “Calibre 10 Racing Series” is a spiritual successor to “Harms Way.” The game is entirely multiplayer in a new experience that combines action-packed racing with fast-paced first person shooting.
• “CastleStorm” by Zen Studios – It’s Knights vs. Vikings in “CastleStorm,” a super genre mash-up of 2D physics destruction mashed with tower defense brawler! “CastleStorm” features a story-driven solo campaign, a custom castle editor, online multiplayer, co-op modes, and more.
• “Chariot” by Frima – “Chariot” is a humorous physics-based couch co-op platformer in which a brave princess and her suitor carry a funeral wagon through ancient mines, fending off swarms of looters while amassing riches, to bury the King's remains in a worthy gold-filled tomb.
• “Chuck’s Challenge 3D” by Niffler – From the design veteran behind the classic game “Chip's Challenge,” comes “Chuck’s Challenge 3D,” a fiendishly addictive puzzler that’s packed with features that will tease the brain and challenge the fingers.
• “Contrast” by Compulsion Games – “Contrast” is a 2D/3D adventure game, set in a surreal, 1920s, film noir dreamscape. You must help Didi explore the mysteries surrounding her family, by using your ability to shift at will between the 3D world and your 2D shadow.
• “Divekick Addition Edition +” by Iron Galaxy Studios – “Divekick” is the world’s first-ever two-button fighting game! Now anyone can experience the thrill of fighting games without memorizing complex combos and finger-contorting button presses.
• “Forced” by BetaDwarf ApS – One- to four-player co-op arcade adventure with puzzles and tactical elements. You are cast as slaves in the toughest fantasy gladiator school of them all, condemned to fight as a gladiator and eventually win your freedom.
• “FRU” by Through Games – “Fru” is a Kinect-based puzzle platformer in which the player utilizes both a joystick and their body to control the game. In fact, in “Fru,” the player's silhouette is used to reveal what lies beneath the world at first glance. “Fru's” gameplay changes according to the player's shape, pose and movement.
• “Guacamelee Super Turbo Championship Edition” by DrinkBox Studios – “Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition” is an action-packed, 2D brawler/platformer that alternates between the worlds of the living and the dead.
• “Gunscape” by Blowfish Studios – At its heart, “Gunscape” is an FPS construction kit: A game with solid action gameplay, a welcoming approach to map building and a huge toolbox of iconic weapons, monsters and level elements that can be extensively combined to create new and exciting gameplay experiences.
• “Habitat” by 4gency – “Habitat” is a space-themed strategy game set in Earth's orbit, where you lead a team of engineers to save humanity by building a space station out of an orbiting wasteland of space junk.
• “Hyper Light Drifter” by Heart Machine – “Hyper Light Drifter” is an action adventure RPG in the vein of the best eight-bit and 16-bit classics, with modernized mechanics and designs on a much grander scale.
• “It Draws a Red Box” by Other Ocean – “It Draws a Red Box” is a chaotic eight-player eSport jumping jetpack future arena ball game that is as inspired by “Bomberman” and “Smash Bros.” as it is by cans of soda, paint-by-number books, and driving five miles faster than the speed limit.
• “Nutjitsu” by NinjaBee – “Nutjitsu” is a top-down, arcade-style game for Xbox One. Players take control of the ninja squirrel on his quest to reclaim his clan’s honor. Featuring two game modes, five power ups, 25 ranks, three distinct enemies and 15 levels, this HTML5 based title is coming to your dojo in early spring.
• “Pinball Arcade” by FarSight Studios – “Pinball Arcade” features exact recreations of the all-time greatest pinball tables from Williams®, Bally®, Stern Pinball® and Gottlieb® together in one game. Every flipper, bumper, sound effect, and display pixel has been painstakingly emulated in astonishing detail.
• “Q.U.B.E. Director’s Cut” by Toxic Games – “Q.U.B.E. Director’s Cut” is a first-person game that faces the player with a series of brain-teasing puzzles. The player uses high tech gloves to manipulate different types of cube in the environment – unravelling conundrums ranging from physics-based challenges; to 3D jigsaws; to platform-based trials.
• “Riptide GP2” by Vector Unit – Featuring dynamic racing on fully interactive water surfaces, “Riptide GP2” sets the gold standard in modern water racing games. Take control of rocket powered hydro jets to race through futuristic cityscapes, hurl yourself off sky-high jumps and bust out dozens of death defying stunts.
• “Roundabout” by No Goblin – “Roundabout” is an open world driving puzzle game where you control a constantly rotating limousine! Pick up passengers, find secret collectibles, take on dangerous missions, and fall in love while reliving the 1977 rise to fame story of Georgio Manos.
• “Sixty Second Shooter Prime” by Happion Laboratories – “Sixty Second Shooter Prime” is a twin stick shooter with a sixty-second time limit. This new Prime version brings a graphics upgrade, a new soundtrack, infinity mode and social leaderboards.
• “Spectra: 8bit Racing” by Gateway Interactive – From new studio Gateway Interactive and Chipzel (the amazing chip-tune artist behind the “Super Hexagon” music) comes “Spectra,” a fast paced retro style racing game destined to get your heart pumping and test your skill like no other!
• “Strike Suit Zero” by Born Ready Games – “Strike Suit Zero: Director’s Cut” is a space combat game that throws players into huge, intense space battles where the very fate of Earth rests on your dogfighting skills.
• “Super Time Force” by Capybara – “Super Time Force” is an action-packed platformer with a time-travelling twist! Take control of up to 16 unique characters, and battle across six different time periods, from the long-ago past to the far-away future.
• “The Last Tinker” by Mimimi Productions – In a world where creativity has given way to conflict, a young street kid living in the slums of Colortown seeks to restore the spark of imagination to his hometown. A charming blend of modern platforming and multicolored style, “The Last Tinker” is a one-of-a-kind adventure.
• “Wulverblade” by Darkwind Media – “Wulverblade” is a side-scrolling brawler created in the spirit of the arcade greats. It's 120AD and the Roman army has seized control of Britannia. Their goal: march north and conquer the island with brutal and bloody efficiency. The 5,000 strong 9th Legion are preparing for war, but little do they know what lies in wait for them.

http://news.xbox.com/2014/03/games-id-xbox-games-first-look

Tommy McClain

 

[benroveno]

Has there been any talk about how indie games will be published on either of these platforms? So far, what I could find it sounded like both would still follow the same model from PS360 (certification). I was hoping for an "app store" approach, similar to what you'd find on phones and tablets.

Totally agree with you. I think it's really important for Microsoft or Sony to protect these indie developers because we never know that they probably have many great games that are overshadowed by major publishing games. Microsoft and Sony should give them a special place on their consoles with some separate app store.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I was asked a question in another thread so am answering it here. My knowledge of Sony's indie programme comes from a friend developing a PS4 title, and he has said that with Sony's success, their early interest in indie's has shifted to being less friendly (don't return his calls, don't provide feedback, etc.) because they've sold 7 million units already. I interpret that as simply being because they've got more interest than they can handle and so can cherry-pick the more interesting titles to nurture. What this means for indies is that PS4 looks to be becoming more of the old experience. For a few devs, Sony will be really supportive and help them publish, but for others it'll be a swim against the tide to get released.

This is the major issue for independent publishing on any of these platforms versus the open platforms. On Android, you just publish. Don't need anyone's permission or TRCs to be validated. On iOS, Apple will get around to you after not too long. On consoles, it still seems to be a case of waiting, waiting, bugging them for replies, waiting, slow progress. I don't know what MS are doing in this regard (friend's game only targets PS4 because XB1 devkits were unavailable to indies while Sony was freely loaning them out, and now it's written in PhyrEngine) but they could offer a more open, encouraging platform. Or not. There's still the issue of a curated library instead of the dross-attracting open platforms, which needs management. I suppose as an indie you'd want the console companies to have enough indie support to cope in a timely fashion with all their demands in developing their indie library. Maybe neither company is presently positioned to provide suitable support. Maybe suitable support for all indies costs more than it's worth?

 

[Billy Idol]

I was asked a question in another thread so am answering it here. My knowledge of Sony's indie programme comes from a friend developing a PS4 title, and he has said that with Sony's success, their early interest in indie's has shifted to being less friendly (don't return his calls, don't provide feedback, etc.) because they've sold 7 million units already. I interpret that as simply being because they've got more interest than they can handle and so can cherry-pick the more interesting titles to nurture. What this means for indies is that PS4 looks to be becoming more of the old experience. For a few devs, Sony will be really supportive and help them publish, but for others it'll be a swim against the tide to get released.

This is the major issue for independent publishing on any of these platforms versus the open platforms. On Android, you just publish. Don't need anyone's permission or TRCs to be validated. On iOS, Apple will get around to you after not too long. On consoles, it still seems to be a case of waiting, waiting, bugging them for replies, waiting, slow progress. I don't know what MS are doing in this regard (friend's game only targets PS4 because XB1 devkits were unavailable to indies while Sony was freely loaning them out, and now it's written in PhyrEngine) but they could offer a more open, encouraging platform. Or not. There's still the issue of a curated library instead of the dross-attracting open platforms, which needs management. I suppose as an indie you'd want the console companies to have enough indie support to cope in a timely fashion with all their demands in developing their indie library. Maybe neither company is presently positioned to provide suitable support. Maybe suitable support for all indies costs more than it's worth?

This is sad news...

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I was asked a question in another thread so am answering it here. My knowledge of Sony's indie programme comes from a friend developing a PS4 title, and he has said that with Sony's success, their early interest in indie's has shifted to being less friendly (don't return his calls, don't provide feedback, etc.)

Or rather than indifference, this could simply be a case of the demand for technical assistance is exceeding Sony's resources. It's still Sony's problem to solve though and if there are difficulties keeping pace with requests, they should communicate this so indies are less frustrated.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think the requests are all technical assistance though. I think it's generally inquiries etc. Even just a reply to an email seems to be hard to get. Note that it was my friend's interpretation that it was the success of PS4 and Sony prioritising 'big' indie titles. I don't know if that's true or not, but I imagine if Jonathan Blow has a request, it gets responded to pretty quickly. I expect their to be favourites and everyone else, and for the mainstream developer its how the everyone else is dealt with that's important. Traditionally every console company has been pretty bad for them, somewhere between aggravatingly aloof and downright dismissive or inconsiderate.

It'd be very nice if there was better transparency all round for them. Open competition for services to developers would help improve things throughout. At the moment it's only hearsay among developers that anyone knows how anything works with these companies!

 

[Sonic]

Thanks for the reply. I hope it's an isolated incident. I hope it's a case of them not having the support system in place rather than letting success get to their heads. And I hope they're able to rectify the situation sooner rather than later. Fostering good relationships with indie devs seems like a no brainer to me. Maybe one of these games would be good enough to go exclusive. I wonder if Sony will let indies have a go at developing games for Morpheus.

The financial burden of support indie devs should be factored into the overall costs of operation for PS4. I get that it might cost more than it returns, but the positive buzz Sony's been receiving can only help the value appeal of PS4. I think as this generation grows and indies focus on more powerful hardware the indie market could grow at a nice rate. Might as well be a platform that indies flock to develop for. It could be kinda like PS1 and PS2 days where just about anything could get released and although much of it was noise there were some great games. With the massive quantity came a great amount of quality.

I would like to see what indie devs will do with Morpheus. The experiences likely won't be as grandiose as what the devs in the big leagues make and I think that could end up great. Indie games in VR that are simpler and fun could be a big draw. I'd totally sit down to a virtual poker game or wander around in a virtual casino trying out various games and what not.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Or rather than indifference, this could simply be a case of the demand for technical assistance is exceeding Sony's resources. It's still Sony's problem to solve though and if there are difficulties keeping pace with requests, they should communicate this so indies are less frustrated.

It wouldn't even have to be technical inquiries. It's easy to imagine everyone who has ever made a game for Steam is right now trying to get on PS4. Sony could have made the process 100 times more efficient, but if the volume of requests has increased a thousand-fold they'd still be overwhelmed. And the more "indie" the indie, the less knowledge and experience they'll have with the business stuff. At GDC Max Temkin (the Cards Against Humanity guy) was on the Giant Bomb stream and talked about having to hire the guy behind Octodad to help him fill out the paperwork to get Samurai Gunn on PS4.

That all said, it seems like right now the best way to get your indie game on PSN is to get it in front of Nick Suttner, Shane Bettenhausen or Adam Boyes at a show like PAX, IndieCade, etc. PSN is still a curated storefront. Until/Unless they move to open submission it will help to have a champion for your game inside the company.

 

[imaxx]

One question (or maybe two):

does Unity runs inside the win8 VM, or the GameOS VM?
If it is in the GameOS VM, is it the same GameOS where usual games run into?

And last... I guess very obviously, it won't use MONO but rather support for scripting, right?