Gradthrawn
Veteran
"Please understand."
We've gotten a lot of mixed messaging from them lately in regards to policy.
PS4, Xbox One: Indie publishing
- Thread starter Scott_Arm
- Start date
"Please understand."
We've gotten a lot of mixed messaging from them lately in regards to policy.
Probably because the policies are still being finalized and most people don't know the entire story.
That coupled with the press making statements based on the assumption things aren't changing the first quote is a good example.
This is a quote
And this is a conclusion drawn by the reporter and reported as fact. It could well be true, but he never got confirmation, he just assumed. Don't get me started on how bad reporting is.
That coupled with the press making statements based on the assumption things aren't changing the first quote is a good example.
This is a quote
And this is a conclusion drawn by the reporter and reported as fact. It could well be true, but he never got confirmation, he just assumed. Don't get me started on how bad reporting is.
Wow. Yeah that's quite an assumption there, basically asserting that they are totally disallowing any indy games from existing on the platform depending on your definition of 'indy game'. Their interpretation is not at all how I interpreted it. What's a shame is many of the actual indy devs out there seem to have been misled and are whining about this 'policy' on twitter now.
Gradthrawn
Veteran
Yes, that's an excellent point. Particularly with that particular article I linked to (sorry).
However, speaking generally now about their XBO policies, these are basic, direct questions they're getting ("Can it work indefinitely offline?"). Not having a response put together because the policy is in flux is one thing ("We haven't announced our plans for that yet"). Having mixed responses takes it to a different level of confusion and poor messaging ("Yes it can", "Wait, no it can't", "Maybe it can? We'll have to see!"). Part of that is definitely the gaming press as you point out, but a lot of it (in the One's reveal case) is not. Direct quotes during interviews from high level people close to the project later being walked back confuses the public and damages their messaging (which I think they've worked very hard on as evidenced by their presentation).
Last edited by a moderator:
I actually don't see why, though it would require a change of policy at MS which may not happen.
I just wish that people doing interviews would actually ask the question, rather than presume the answer.
Could also be an interface says that MS expect Indy devs to work though the Win8 app store, I have no idea, but the quote doesn't preclude anything and the interviewer never bother to get clarification.
I do know this if MS intends to embrace free to play and micro transaction business models which I would presume they will, there are certainly at least some changes to the existing policies.
And given things like the patching policy is driven by the lack of a guaranteed HD, I'd expect changes there as well.
Don't bother, we've already seen it all over these forums already. It doesn't add anything to the discussions.
It's as ERP reports, a lot of misinformation out there based on assumptions and incredibly bad reporting. Hopefully all will be officially clarified at E3.
I'd actually expect anything developer related to be announced at Microsoft's BUILD Conference at the end of June. Hopefully some more specs will be confirmed there as well as well as a deeper dive in to the Xbox One OS architecture.
Like any project running up against a deadline, I'm sure a lot of stuff is still very much in flux.
I'm really surprised (and disappointed) if the Xbox One doesn't have an app store model. One possibility is that the "apps OS" is open, meaning you can purchase the developer license for $99 / year and create apps and games which run through the WinRT. You still have access to DX11 etc., similar to Windows 8, but you're limited to "managed" apps. If you want to create "native" stuff like compute heavy games, you need a better license (invitation from MS or how it currently works).
Why not do it like steam and have a greenlight? Steam does not have self publishing and is the top gaming platform on PC.
I actually want to see what MS has in plan for the xbox one in terms of developer support since they have a decent sized eco system now with W8 tablets, PCs and phones which can all share 1 SDK for simple indie app development, they should be able to tie that in with xbox one somehow, it would be stupid not to from my stand point.
I actually want to see what MS has in plan for the xbox one in terms of developer support since they have a decent sized eco system now with W8 tablets, PCs and phones which can all share 1 SDK for simple indie app development, they should be able to tie that in with xbox one somehow, it would be stupid not to from my stand point.
Last edited by a moderator:
Didn't know that about the patching. That's interesting, thanks for that. And Mark Rein confirmed they are going to be big on F2P. Very big. And EA has confirmed they are likewise going big on micro-transactions. So, clearly the policies and biz models with the X1 are very different than the current paradigm overall. That's also why ppl should wait before whining about indy publishing or misleading stories on the topic and used games this or that. Those areas should be part of a full marketplace reveal to get the appropriate context established first imho.
Miksu, Esrever...wait for them to actually reveal their marketplace. It seems obvious to me that they will have a dramatically different marketplace. They almost have to in order to be able to accommodate the stuff we KNOW is coming.
Also, don't be so sure it won't be eerily similar to Steam, with console tweaks. We know for a fact that MS has spent a good deal of time looking into how Steam works and the biz model for it specifically, as per the LinkedIn profile of one of their game producers (same guy who spoke up 4 new IP many moons ago). He specifically said it was his job to research other marketplaces and gave a shout out to Steam directly. So I say just wait until E3.
James Silva who owns & runs Ska Studios, the one-man team responsible for Dishwasher: Dead Samurai & I MAED A GAM3 W1TH Z0MB1ES!!!1 posted an interesting blog on Gamasutra about Microsoft & Indies. Seems like he's had & having a good experience with Microsoft. He talks about "Microsoft is bad for indies" narrative trending in gaming news & how it's more likely to hurt indie developers more than Microsoft. Even with all the public negativity he still has good things to say about Microsoft & even plans to start working on the Xbox One once he finishes his next game called Charlie Murder sometime before XB1 launches later this year. Doesn't sound like he knows how it will work, but he believes it will work about the same as it now(Microsoft publishes) but they are looking at some improvements. He surely must be talking about XBLA. So it sounds like with XBLA branding on the way out it will still work basically the same: indies will still need a publisher. That doesn't preclude a possible self-publishing model being announced later. I think it's a possibility with WinRT, but Microsoft's silence isn't giving current XBLIG developers much to be positive about. Anyway, links below. Also check out some of the comments. James responds to a few of them too.
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JamesSil...Indie_we_like_Microsoft_Too_Controversial.php
Tommy McClain
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JamesSil...Indie_we_like_Microsoft_Too_Controversial.php
Tommy McClain
The only problem with his, "business as usual" argument is that is exactly what many indies do not want going forward. I guess if you're a 2 person team that was plucked from obscurity in the Indie channel and got a cool publishing deal you might be super-content. But for other teams out there with more overhead that don't want to be over the barrel trying to get their game on every platform. When XBLA was the dominant platform it might be worth signing that exclusive deal, but it's hard to chose Xbox only to exclusion of PSN, Steam and Nintendo where the total audience these days appears much larger. That's especially true as Xbox One is starting over at zero. So if you can't get an established third party to publish you (who will take a cut) why would you sign a 6/12 month exclusive deal with MS when you can self publish on PS3/Vita/PS4/WiiU/Steam all at the same time?
Brad, indy's can self publish on X1 as well. They just have to do it under the indy banner...which in the past was problematic as that content was hidden in the marketplace. With X1 MS fixed that so all games, be they retail or XBLA-like or indy titles are all just listed in the marketplace as 'games'.
I don't see how this is any different in practice than what Sony is doing. Make a game, pay the $99 fee to get it self-published as all indy's do, it goes up for sale at the price you choose for it. Already have an indy game finished for Windows? Take your Windows version, tweak the controls for X1, and self publish, etc. Seems smart to me. The real differentiators imho will be exposure.
Personally I'd LOVE to see a Kickstarter-like app for X1 that lets gamers donate to new indy titles or general app projects. I'd like it even more if MS did this for their indy devs and had Kickstarter as part of the marketplace itself.
I don't see how this is any different in practice than what Sony is doing. Make a game, pay the $99 fee to get it self-published as all indy's do, it goes up for sale at the price you choose for it. Already have an indy game finished for Windows? Take your Windows version, tweak the controls for X1, and self publish, etc. Seems smart to me. The real differentiators imho will be exposure.
Personally I'd LOVE to see a Kickstarter-like app for X1 that lets gamers donate to new indy titles or general app projects. I'd like it even more if MS did this for their indy devs and had Kickstarter as part of the marketplace itself.
What Indie banner? The Indie Channel is gone. XNA is gone.
Self publishing on the XB1 hasn't been confirmed yet. What has been confirmed is there's no longer separate Marketplaces like Games on Demand, Xbox Live Arcade or Xbox Live Indies. It's been said they're just "Games" & they still require publishers just like XBLA. There is a Windows kernel, but it hasn't been confirmed there will be access to the Windows Store for WinRT games. One would think there would be considering XNA has been shuttered, but we don't know it for sure. Hopefully E3 will clear it up.
Tommy McClain
Tommy McClain
MS better correct this (incorrect? correct but hoping it goes away by not commenting?) Indie "issue" ASAP. The Xbox 360 started off very positive for indie developers and the wheels have been coming off for years. The way they have treated the Indie section and forcing a publisher for the Arcade section really creates a poorly tiered system.
An anecdote: Airmech. A very fun Action RTS/TDF game. They wanted to bring it to the Xbox 360 but it would require a publisher. They actually pursued Microsoft and there response was this: "Thanks but no thanks as your game would only appeal to a niche audience." This surprised/irked me. First is Airmech is a robust, deep, detailed, and balanced game. It has a ton of action but requires some strategy. It also has 4 player coop against hoards of baddies or can be played 1v1 2v2 or 3v3. It really fits well into the Xbox "itch". So what crap does MS think we need? A Snoop Dog game (Way of the Dog)? Really??! XBLA has some really good games but it really lacks in strategy games (but we have a ton of 3rd person car games, side scrollers, and various shooters).
Basically all the smart indie devs who do not want to subject themselves to some silly parameters and force a square peg into a round whole so some suit and tie looking up user usage data already jumped onto Kick Starter and try to hit the Humble Bundles, target technologies like HTML5 and Javascript, and make a push to mobile platforms and branch out from there.
Based on the long list of twitter complaints it seems MS has really been fostering ill will from indie studios for a while and the "no news yet" and "psstt I have a nasty rumor for you" really don't help.
This coming from someone who has bought over 20 Indie Games and far more than that Arcade games on the Xbox 360.
An anecdote: Airmech. A very fun Action RTS/TDF game. They wanted to bring it to the Xbox 360 but it would require a publisher. They actually pursued Microsoft and there response was this: "Thanks but no thanks as your game would only appeal to a niche audience." This surprised/irked me. First is Airmech is a robust, deep, detailed, and balanced game. It has a ton of action but requires some strategy. It also has 4 player coop against hoards of baddies or can be played 1v1 2v2 or 3v3. It really fits well into the Xbox "itch". So what crap does MS think we need? A Snoop Dog game (Way of the Dog)? Really??! XBLA has some really good games but it really lacks in strategy games (but we have a ton of 3rd person car games, side scrollers, and various shooters).
Basically all the smart indie devs who do not want to subject themselves to some silly parameters and force a square peg into a round whole so some suit and tie looking up user usage data already jumped onto Kick Starter and try to hit the Humble Bundles, target technologies like HTML5 and Javascript, and make a push to mobile platforms and branch out from there.
Based on the long list of twitter complaints it seems MS has really been fostering ill will from indie studios for a while and the "no news yet" and "psstt I have a nasty rumor for you" really don't help.
This coming from someone who has bought over 20 Indie Games and far more than that Arcade games on the Xbox 360.
I haven't looked at how many XBLIG titles I've bought Vs XBLA, but I think I'm there with you too. Unfortunately I don't really play them anymore. They were great little titles when they were new & great little distractions too, but I don't know if I'm going to be interested in them come next gen. The quality on XBLIG was hit or miss(mainly miss). A lot of very amateur content. I think if they didn't have the Peer Review system there would have been more polished content. And I probably would kept playing them more if they were given Achievements(not necessarily real Gamerscore points), real Leaderboards & access to Kinect. It just didn't seem like Microsoft was really interested doing what needed to be done with the platform & I think that had everything to do with competing with XBLA. Now that there won't be any competition, maybe they will open it up to the Windows Store & we'll see the WinRT games show up? But I agree Microsoft definitely need to address this big hole they left & if they don't address it, then I fear it will be just another negative for everybody to complain about before jumping over to the competition.
Tommy McClain
Tommy McClain
They never actually even bothered to release the IG channel in my country (which is only the 7th or 8th economy worldwide or so, but whatever
). That kind of thing did not impress, though I'm still wondering if there are some laws in my country to blame for this.Similar threads
