PS4 to use Cell, NOT PS3?

Panajev2001a said:
Generally you build multi-billion dollars fab with the idea of upgrading them and not dismantling/destroying/rebuilding from head to toe: also notice that a major portion of PlayStation 2 manufacturing is being moved to China and that means more and more fab space..."unutilized" ;)

The new Oita fab is expected to start yelding 25,000+ 300mm wafers a month by April 2004 and I bet even the new Nagasaki fab will be able to start relatively "low volume" production before PlayStation 3 is released ( in Japan I expect any date between March and September 2005 and early-mid December 2005 in the North American market )...

I think 600,000-800,000 consoles for the Japanese launch and 800,000+ consoles for the North American launch should be possible...

That would mean that you would need up to 1,600,000 consoles produced by December 2005 with a part of that produced between the Japanese launch and the North American launch.

25,000 Wafers a month for 1 fab ( Oita )... April 2004 to April 2005 is 12 months...

That would mean 300,000 wafers...

Let's say they can do up to 6 Broadband Engines or Visualizers per wafer and let's say that the amount of working chips per wafer ends up being 2-3...

That would bring you in the 600,000-800,000 ball-park we were mentioning before...

Of course the situation is not going to be as nice as the one I presented, but also remember that I was only talking about the new Oita fab and I was not adding early production from the new Nagasaki plant and other chips coming from upgraded fabs in Oita and Nagasaki...

on a 300mm wafer (+70 000 mm2) they can do up 100-200 BE not 6!!!
 
We will see what happens . Rumors are going around . I've been around long enough to know that most rumors are based in truth.
 
Panajev2001a said:
I was being very conservative, trying to proove a point without assuming best case scenarios...


WELL YEAH... but from 100-200 to 6 is not a worst case scenario... it's DEATH.... :LOL:
 
london-boy said:
Panajev2001a said:
I was being very conservative, trying to proove a point without assuming best case scenarios...


WELL YEAH... but from 100-200 to 6 is not a worst case scenario... it's DEATH.... :LOL:

DUnno what the exact number is but we all know it will be more than six. Remember though . All the chips need to work. They all need to work at the same clockspeed.
 
jvd said:
london-boy said:
Panajev2001a said:
I was being very conservative, trying to proove a point without assuming best case scenarios...


WELL YEAH... but from 100-200 to 6 is not a worst case scenario... it's DEATH.... :LOL:

DUnno what the exact number is but we all know it will be more than six. Remember though . All the chips need to work. They all need to work at the same clockspeed.

yeah but i mean come on, even Nvidia got more with NV30 :LOL: and thats saying something...
 
london-boy said:
jvd said:
london-boy said:
Panajev2001a said:
I was being very conservative, trying to proove a point without assuming best case scenarios...


WELL YEAH... but from 100-200 to 6 is not a worst case scenario... it's DEATH.... :LOL:

DUnno what the exact number is but we all know it will be more than six. Remember though . All the chips need to work. They all need to work at the same clockspeed.

yeah but i mean come on, even Nvidia got more with NV30 :LOL: and thats saying something...

Yea except it came out over 6 months later than expected and they were only able to make what a 100k of the 500mhz clocked ones. the rest are under 400mhz . Sony can't afford that . They need them all at the same target speed.
 
on a 300mm wafer (+70 000 mm2) they can do up 100-200 BE not 6!!!

Original estimates:

I know, 300 mm is quite big as far as the diameter is concerned...

70,000 mm^2 ? Well first the wafer is circular so with quad or rectangle shaped chips we will will not use 100% of the wafer area...

For the sake of the argument let's say they can manage to use only 50,000 mm^2
( 71% efficiency )

Let's take the size of the EE/GS in 250 nm as those were quite big chips... let's add something and assume that each Broadband Engine ( same size for the Visualizer as the Pixel Engine+Image Cache+CRTC take the space of four APUs... ) takes like 300-350 mm^2 ( very big )...

50,000 mm^2 / 300-350 mm^2/chip = 166-142

This means that we would have 83-71 Broadband Engines and 83-71 Visualizers...

Of course I do not expect all the Broadband Engines to hit 4 GHz and all Visualizers to hit 1-2 GHz and work...

Let's go back and think about 6 Broadband Engines and 6 Visualizer fully working per wafer...

That would be 8.45% of the chips produced ( using the 350 mm^2 ).

We are also assuming a launch window from March 2005 to September 2005 ( ~5 months ) and now we are adding the fact that we expect ( low estimate ) only 8.45% of the manufacture chips to be validated for actual PlayStation 3 speeds...

Still, we are getting 6 PlayStation 3s per wafer ( assuming the other components will not be as hard to manufacture... ) and we have 25,000 wafers a month... ok let's assume that we have problems and we get only 15,000 wafers a month... ( 60% )

15,000 * 10-12 ( months before PlayStation 3's Japanese launch [estimated] from beginning of manufacturing including few months for debugging ) = 150,000-180,000 wafers...

150,000-180,000 * 6 = 900,000-1,080,000 PlayStation 3s

We said 600,000 units for the Japanese launch so that would give us 300,000-480,000 units for the American launch...

Then you have ~3 months to manufacture more units for also the North American Launch.

Let's keep the manufacturing numbers we have used before...

15,000 * 3 = 45,000 wafers

45,000 * 6 = 270,000 PlayStation 3s

This would mean 570,000-650,000 for the North American launch.

This would not be bad and I'd also expect the production to ramp up duirng 2005 and the yelds to increase...

I used conservative numbers here also to take into account potential debuging problems with the silicon, delays in the manufacturing lines, etc...

I tried not to be too generous...

And still the numbers do work... that scenario would give quite a good amount of consoles to each region and by January 2006 I expect Nagasaki's new fab to start producing PlayStation 3 chips at a good pace and the overall number of PlayStation 3s produced per month to increase dramatically...
 
Geeforcer said:
LOL, Inquirer is so unreliable, there credibility is negative. Thus, I am now more then ever sure that Cell will make into PS3 - since Inquirer said it would not.

HA!

EDIT: I'm still cracking up over this.

Vince asked me how SCEI could have two projects, one devoted to Cell, the other devoted to the CPU PS3, without them mentioning it. Well, could this announcement of SCEi licensing a MIPS64 core from Mips, be an indication that a parallel project indeed does exist?

Or did anyone think that the Broadband Engine may, infact, use a hacked-down MIPS64 pipeline as the "PE" type device as I first proposed back in early 2002? There are too many uncertainties about the actual microarchitecture to speculate on outside of the general architecture as stated in the infamous patent from 2001.

Also, to state that Cell is late, behind schedual, or not intended for PS3 is not only obsurd, it's bordering on the fringe of bias. I mean, look no further than the individuals who are posting said comments...
 
Panajev2001a said:
What do you think about the last post I made ?

You were too conservative with the number of sucessful yeilds, and too optimistic with the lead time from finished netlist to production. But, even with a leadtime of half what you've stated, it will be easily made up for in the vastly higher yeilds [6?!?] and the subsequent rapid normalization of yeilds.

Jvd said:
Yea except it came out over 6 months later than expected and they were only able to make what a 100k of the 500mhz clocked ones. the rest are under 400mhz . Sony can't afford that . They need them all at the same target speed

nVidia also got bent-over by TSMC who didn't get their 130nm process with dielectrics working at an acceptable level. nVidia now must suffer the fate of higher thermal dissapation than designed for, pushing the tolerances and ultimatly having a chip that yeilds for shit and can double as a spade-heater, vacuum cleaner and/or sexual toy.

PS. To someone like Marco, if a Dave's in here... Do CPU makers call it a netlist handoff or GDSII tape-out aswell? I really don't know much about CPU design, are their tools similiar to 3D IHVs? Verilog anyone?
 
Vince said:
Panajev2001a said:
What do you think about the last post I made ?

You were too conservative with the number of sucessful yeilds, and too optimistic with the lead time from finished netlist to production. But, even with a leadtime of half what you've stated, it will be easily made up for in the vastly higher yeilds [6?!?] and the subsequent rapid normalization of yeilds.

I am glad the numbers do work out at the end... I was not sure about other factors and that is why I decided to lower significantly the number of yelds and to also assume that the wafer per month output was lowered ( from 25,000 as they stated to 15,000 ).

I am sad I over-estimated the leadtime, but I guess I can take it as an opportunity to do some research and learn more about it, right ?

Thanks for replying Vince :D
 
Also, to state that Cell is late, behind schedual, or not intended for PS3 is not only obsurd, it's bordering on the fringe of bias. I mean, look no further than the individuals who are posting said comments...

This was all brought about by the sony zelots. They posted articles with this info in it. We only speculated on it and had convos about it. How that borders on bias I do not know. Mabye you mean those that are blind to see that even sony can make mistakes ? Those people are in this thread. Then there are the more level headed ones that are interjecting with ways (very real reasons) that delays might happen.
 
Correction...

You were too conservative with the number of sucessful yeilds, and too optimistic with the lead time from finished netlist to production. But, even with a leadtime of half what you've stated, it will be easily made up for in the vastly higher yeilds [6?!?] and the subsequent rapid normalization of yeilds.

So, corrected estimates...

70,000 mm^2 ? Well first the wafer is circular so with quad or rectangle shaped chips we will will not use 100% of the wafer area...

For the sake of the argument let's say they can manage to use only 50,000 mm^2
( 71% efficiency )

Let's take the size of the EE/GS in 250 nm as those were quite big chips... let's add something and assume that each Broadband Engine ( same size for the Visualizer as the Pixel Engine+Image Cache+CRTC take the space of four APUs... ) takes like 300-350 mm^2 ( very big )...

50,000 mm^2 / 300-350 mm^2/chip = 166-142

This means that we would have 83-71 Broadband Engines and 83-71 Visualizers...

Of course I do not expect all the Broadband Engines to hit 4 GHz and all Visualizers to hit 1-2 GHz and work...

Let's go back and think about 12 Broadband Engines and 12 Visualizer fully working per wafer...

That would be 16.9% of the chips produced ( using the 350 mm^2 ).

We are also assuming a launch window from March 2005 to September 2005 ( ~5 months ) and now we are adding the fact that we expect ( low estimate ) only 16.9% of the manufacture chips to be validated for actual PlayStation 3 speeds...

Still, we are getting 12 PlayStation 3s per wafer ( assuming the other components will not be as hard to manufacture... ) and we have 25,000 wafers a month... ok let's assume that we have problems and we get only 15,000 wafers a month... ( 60% )

15,000 * 5-6 ( months before PlayStation 3's Japanese launch [estimated] from beginning of manufacturing including few months for debugging [edit: increased lead time] ) = 75,000-90,000 wafers...

75,000-90,000 * 12 = 900,000-1,080,000 PlayStation 3s

Let's say 600,000 units for the Japanese launch and and additional 40,000 units for post-launch impulse buys: that would give us 260,000-440,000 units for the American launch...

Then you have ~3 months to manufacture more units for also the North American Launch.

Let's keep the manufacturing numbers we have used before...

15,000 * 3 = 45,000 wafers

45,000 * 12 = 540,000 PlayStation 3s

To reach a 800,000 number for the North American launch we would need 260,000 units and we can take them from what was produced before this 3 months period as we calulated above.


I used conservative numbers here also to take into account potential debuging problems with the silicon, delays in the manufacturing lines, etc...

I tried not to be too generous...

And still the numbers do work... that scenario would give quite a good amount of consoles to each region and by January 2006 I expect Nagasaki's new fab to start producing PlayStation 3 chips at a good pace and the overall number of PlayStation 3s produced per month to increase dramatically...

Again this does not include a faster increase of yelds ( expected ) and it is using low estimates for things such as wafer per month output ( 15,000 instead of the estimated 25,000 ) and chip yelds ( 12 chips per wafer validated for full PlayStation 3 speeds and a Broadband Engine die of 350 mm^2 at 65 nm.. they are gettign ready for 45 nm, transitioning as soon as it is possible and this could be an indication that the chip is indeed big... )
 
Do you like the revised figures better Vince ? :)

jvd... I am trying to go conservative in my chip production estimates ( which I am trying to correct... in the last correction I took Vince's input of halving the lead time and increasing the yelds, which I doubled... still we are like 16.9% of the chips obtained from each wafer and I do not think this is an overly optimistic figure ;) ) and I hope to fine-tune them well enough to give a very roughly approximated idea about possible initial PlayStation 3's shipment for the Japanese and the North American launches.
 
"This was all brought about by the sony zelots. They posted articles with this info in it. We only speculated on it and had convos about it. How that borders on bias I do not know. Mabye you mean those that are blind to see that even sony can make mistakes ? Those people are in this thread. Then there are the more level headed ones that are interjecting with ways (very real reasons) that delays might happen."

By "They" jvd you mean me, just come out and say it. The Designchain article had the whole 2007 thing in it, as well as Kutagari supposidly saying Cell will not be in ps3 despite there being no direct quote.

Despite Sony a few days ago admitting that Cell WILL be in ps3, despite SCEI confirming Cell will be used in their next generation computer entertainment system, despite all the current articles who say Cell will be used in ps3. Depite the vice president of SCEI confirming it at gdc 2002, despite the fact that Sony according to you is spending billions on Cell only not to have it in ps3 despite the fact that the cell patent makes DIRECT reference to ps3.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence for a supposed "second" chip, there is no evidence of it's funding, nothing.

Despite all this, IMO anyone who says cell won't be in ps3 is just biased. There is no discusion about anything when SCEI confirms it as well as Sony at a meeting.

Keep thinking what you want to belive jvd, because i'm going to laugh at you when Cell is indeed inside ps3.

And for the record, I have no plans to get a ps3 at all, i'm interesting in the Tech.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Do you like the revised figures better Vince ? :)

jvd... I am trying to go conservative in my chip production estimates ( which I am trying to correct... in the last correction I took Vince's input of halving the lead time and increasing the yelds, which I doubled... still we are like 16.9% of the chips obtained from each wafer and I do not think this is an overly optimistic figure ;) ) and I hope to fine-tune them well enough to give a very roughly approximated idea about possible initial PlayStation 3's shipment for the Japanese and the North American launches.

Got no complaints with it otherwise i would have said something. The math looks good to me. From what i know of it at least. Keep up the good work :)
 
Paul said:
"This was all brought about by the sony zelots. They posted articles with this info in it. We only speculated on it and had convos about it. How that borders on bias I do not know. Mabye you mean those that are blind to see that even sony can make mistakes ? Those people are in this thread. Then there are the more level headed ones that are interjecting with ways (very real reasons) that delays might happen."

By "They" jvd you mean me, just come out and say it. The Designchain article had the whole 2007 thing in it, as well as Kutagari supposidly saying Cell will not be in ps3 despite there being no direct quote.

Despite Sony a few days ago admitting that Cell WILL be in ps3, despite SCEI confirming Cell will be used in their next generation computer entertainment system, despite all the current articles who say Cell will be used in ps3. Depite the vice president of SCEI confirming it at gdc 2002, despite the fact that Sony according to you is spending billions on Cell only not to have it in ps3 despite the fact that the cell patent makes DIRECT reference to ps3.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence for a supposed "second" chip, there is no evidence of it's funding, nothing.

Despite all this, IMO anyone who says cell won't be in ps3 is just biased. There is no discusion about anything when SCEI confirms it as well as Sony at a meeting.

Keep thinking what you want to belive jvd, because i'm going to laugh at you when Cell is indeed inside ps3.

And for the record, I have no plans to get a ps3 at all, i'm interesting in the Tech.

Paul we have talked and u know i'm strait up with stuff . IF i wanted to say u i would say your name in my post. I'm not affraid to that. U should also know that i believe the cell chip will be in the ps3. But i wont close a door of chance (esp when its rumored) Just cause. I will explore it as much as possible. Thats how i learn more and u guys learn more .

There are many people here that seem to be blind sony fans. By saying sony might not be able to do something i have been branded anti sony by them. Which is not true. I admit my bias. I don't like sony products . I have had a ton fail on me. I don't care for ms much either. But at least i haven't needed to buy more than one xbox. People should know that next to the dreamcast my fav system is the gamecube. Never denined any of it .But i do own and play many ps2 games
 
Are these die sizes factoring in the eDRAM?

eDRAM if design properly can be dense, so 64 MB on 65nm process probably would take around 12-14 mm^2.

I doubt the chip be over 300 mm^2 though. I think it will be around 250 mm^2
 
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