Seems so lolSo you're basically claiming now that the sales numbers we have now include unfulfilled preorders? Oh boy ...
Seems so lolSo you're basically claiming now that the sales numbers we have now include unfulfilled preorders? Oh boy ...
No, I'm saying quite simply that you can't treat a pre-order as a sale.So you're basically claiming now that the sales numbers we have now include unfulfilled preorders? Oh boy ...
Aha. So it's 550k to 600k (depending on who you ask) systems in hands of consumers, i.e. preorders and, err, "sales" combined. Better?No, I'm saying quite simply that you can't treat a pre-order as a sale.
And I'm saying a sale is a sale. But I wasn't making a distinction between online and B&M stores. Obviously if you ordered it to be shipped upon release and don't cancel, then the pre-order is turned into a sale automatically. Are you suggesting this is how all pre-orders were handled in Europe?Well, the cancelletion date is closed, it becomes a sale, i don't see what is so difficult to understand about this :/
I didn't say all pre-orders are sales, i said all not cancelled pre-orders are, and on friday, there's no more pre-orders, just shippings
Didn't mean to question your pre-order authority.Seems so lol
Why are you combining sales and pre-orders? I feel like someone's trying to have a debate on something different than my simple point: you can't treat a pre-order like a sale.Aha. So it's 550k to 600k (depending on who you ask) systems in hands of consumers, i.e. preorders and, err, "sales" combined. Better?
Well I don't think we have separated numbers, so all I can do is clarify what I believe the number means. I just don't see why we "can't" unify instanteous sales and pre-orders. A pre-order that goes through still means that there is a customer who wants to have the console, and pays for the console, on day one. it's a different method of, yes, selling something, but all the significant stuff is the same: it brings in money, it increments the install base, and not least another customer who can relate hands-on impressions to peers.Why are you combining sales and pre-orders? I feel like someone's trying to have a debate on something different than my simple point: you can't treat a pre-order like a sale.
I just disagree in principal with treating pre-orders as a sales metric, since the sale isn't realized until the final transaction takes place. In other words, its merely an intent to buy, not a purchase.Well I don't think we have separated numbers, so all I can do is clarify what I believe the number means. I just don't see why we "can't" unify instanteous sales and pre-orders. A pre-order that goes through still means that there is a customer who wants to have the console, and pays for the console, on day one. it's a different method of, yes, selling something, but all the significant stuff is the same: it brings in money, it increments the install base, and not least another customer who can relate hands-on impressions to peers.
I understand your point now, I just don't understand your reasons.
Those sites are completely useless if you are interested in hardware sales in Europe.
You have no grounds to assume that the numbers we have include cancelled or otherwise unfulfilled pre-orders. Because that's what you're arguing. We wouldn't have this discussion about pre-orders that go through.I just disagree in principal with treating pre-orders as a sales metric, since the sale isn't realized until the final transaction takes place. In other words, its merely an intent to buy, not a purchase.
But I think I'm just arguing semantics which distracts from the real point, if I understand it: given enough supply to satisfy all pre-orders, taking the pre-order count is probably as good a guess of minimum total sales as we're going to get. I just disagreed with treating a pre-order is a guaranteed sale, or the fact that vgcharts is doing so.
We are the ultimate battleground of disinformation.And so is vgcharts.org or nex-genwars.com if you want european data. Its guesstimates.
Fact is, that there is no company tracking console sales in EU or europe.
Right: I'm arguing that you have no grounds to assume that pre-order numbers you have were fulfilled. I'm looking for a positive proof of a sale, not a positive proof of a probable sale.You have no grounds to assume that the numbers we have include cancelled or otherwise unfulfilled pre-orders. Because that's what you're arguing. We wouldn't have this discussion about pre-orders that go through.
We are the ultimate battleground of disinformation.
Bollocks. You're looking for negative spin. The word "sold", which is the one that is being used has exactly one meaning, and it's the one you used for yourself in your second sentence. Just go read the news story. No ambiguity there. Pre-orders are never even mentioned, which pulls the carpet under your request for clarification of what kind of pre-order is included; none explicitly. The number is sales. If you're still unsure about that after reading the news story please seek out a linguistics professor. I'm outta here.Right: I'm arguing that you have no grounds to assume that pre-order numbers you have were fulfilled. I'm looking for a positive proof of a sale, not a positive proof of a probable sale.
I'm looking for "negative spin"? Show me any post where I've ever spun any news before casting around crap about my posting style.Bollocks. You're looking for negative spin. The word "sold", which is the one that is being used has exactly one meaning, and it's the one you used for yourself in your second sentence. Just go read the news story. No ambiguity there. Pre-orders are never even mentioned, which pulls the carpet under your request for clarification of what kind of pre-order is included; none explicitly. The number is sales. If you're still unsure about that after reading the news story please seek out a linguistics professor. I'm outta here.
I'm looking for "negative spin"? Show me any post where I've ever spun any news before casting around crap about my posting style.
I don't see any where in my posts here where I've suggested that the reported sold number is disputed. What I disagreed with is the notion that the day before or day of a launch you cold say, "X number units sold because that's how many pre-orders there were." That is, I disagreed with what vgcharts apparently did. Not sure why this gets you riled up so, since it's a fairly intuitive and obvious--and dare I say, benign--point.
[offtopic]
Having said that, I've noticed a bit more animosity towards posts (and posters) which are outside the realm of what could be deemed "positive" viewpoints toward ps3 (or Sony) lately. Hopefully this isn't a trend which will continue as I believe our members and our site deserve better than this.
/offtopic
I ll begin by saying I didnt read almost anything from the conversation made in this thread.
That said, I am going to say something that may sound kind of radical compared to the expected attitude in these forums...
I sometimes like propaganda. Actually I might add that I miss the old days when I wasnt as knowledgable, when the console giants would come in and announce, "our console has the power to take you into different dimensions, can do jurassic park graphics, toy story graphics, make photorealistic visuals, its as powerful as a CGI workstation" and such and excite people.
I remember Sega's introduction of the DC and its Tech demos. I remember Sony's first demosntration of the PS2. I was blown away, totally excited. It made thinsg interesting for me.
I was ecstatic with gaming because of these. And I would buy or play their offerings and still believe their outlandish claims. When I saw Sonic Adventure at the age of 16 for the first time in magazines I remember me and myself salivading, calling it "wow its better looking than toy story". I remember irimiagiri's face made in real time and we were like "these like claymation only in 3D graphics "
I remember watching and playing Shenmue believing that was a virtual world in teh game.
I then remember seeing TTT with jaws dropped. It looked to me as good as the CGI in Tekken3! Or even better!
I remember seeing the final form of GT3 and seeing no difference compared to the GT2's CGI!
gaming was exciting!
It was also exciting when claims such as the PS2 used for missiles etc were said at CNN.
Truelly crazy. None of them had any relation to reality, but they spiced up things.
But as I grew up andthe more I got into things, trying to be as rational, as objective and realistic as possible, I am no longer as excited about games. I see truelly mindblowing things in gaming, such as animation and AI in Assasin's Creed, I see graphics like the ones in GoW, I see crazy physics presented in games such as Motorstorm and I am "bored".
Because now I(we) have become so cynical, and judging we even question the truelly great things, We even tend to turnthe slightest "flaws" into giant nuclear mushrooms. The outlandish claims are TOTALLY fake, the partially real are 3/4 fake, and the actual real are half fake and not so pretty.
I feel like a kid who used to be excited by magical tricks and I later discover how they are done. They are no longer exciting after I know how they are done. They are boring
So there. In every thread we dispute, talk about every single piece of silicon, we question every piece of sale, we find stupid flaws even in the best looking games (oh look I found one blurry texture in FF13, it just looks decent. Oh look, Forza2 looks like plastic cars.Pffft), and in general, what was supposed to be fan, supposed to make us forget politics, every day problems, work etc something that would take us into a world of entertainment without anything to bother our minds at the end is discussed like politics, causes disputes, create stress in some people, and its no longer the exciting world it should have been.
Really this rationality hasnt improved things much either. There is only rational bias unlike then which was irrational bias. Everyone has some rational explanation to back up his bias about a console. In essence not only I cant be just as exscited any more, nothing improved in terms of attitude when discussing. I must say that it may have actually gotten worse.
Bah just when I was going to post something in the other thread about propaganda it got closed. Anyways I ll post it in here since judging from the discussions made in here it also fits in this thread
Dont discuss this post. Its just an opinion, readable by anyone who is interested otherwise ignore it
Which part of "600000 sales" do you not understand?Good post. Agreed with your assertion in the first place. (obvious)
Preorder != Sale
Beyond ridiculous.[offtopic]
Having said that, I've noticed a bit more animosity towards posts (and posters) which are outside the realm of what could be deemed "positive" viewpoints toward ps3 (or Sony) lately. Hopefully this isn't a trend which will continue as I believe our members and our site deserve better than this.
/offtopic
Dont discuss this post. Its just an opinion, readable by anyone who is interested otherwise ignore it