PS3 Open Platform - some big news

[Rainbow Man]

IMO the chances of that ever happening have just dropped to zero over last couple of weeks with events in PSP scene.

What events? Please, enlighten us..

All I know of any PSP events (I don't own one) is people keep trying to hack it whenever a new software version for it is released. I guess sony isn't too happy about that but then again that's not really anything new so something else must have happened then I guess.

Peace.

 

[Arwin]

What events? Please, enlighten us..

All I know of any PSP events (I don't own one) is people keep trying to hack it whenever a new software version for it is released. I guess sony isn't too happy about that but then again that's not really anything new so something else must have happened then I guess.

Peace.

He means the fact that the more enterprising PSP owners are now putting isos of PS1 games onto their memory sticks themselves, either legally or illegally.

However, this does not support Fafalada's argument - in this case, they are making use of the module in the Firmware that contains the PS1 emulator. If they had been doing the same but using a homebrew PS1 emulator though, he'd have been right. But that is not the case.

 

[Panajev2001a]

IMO the chances of that ever happening have just dropped to zero over last couple of weeks with events in PSP scene.

IMHO, the problem with RSX access are that you can freely read/write to XDR memory (if you had low level access to it) bypassing the restrictions the Hypervisor places on XDR memory areas. This is what, IMHO, the "security problem" produced by giving RSX access at the moment is all about.

 

[fireshot]

If the RSX is forever lock away, that rules out "PS3 acting as a budget PC'" Linux computing IMO.
The next question is whether 192mb of memory is enough for a XMBC-HD media console with PS2/GC emulation?

 

[Carl B]

If the RSX is forever lock away, that rules out "PS3 acting as a budget PC'" Linux computing IMO.

Why?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If the RSX is forever lock away, that rules out "PS3 acting as a budget PC'" Linux computing IMO.

Most computing applications don't need a 3D GPU. The only major job that does is playing games, which isn't really an issue on PS3 now, is it?

 

[fireshot]

IMHO it is a drastic backstep for me. I cannot fathom using a 192mb PC without hardware 2D/3D acceleration.

TBH i cannot say for certain how Linux works under these dire circumstances but even with some compromising, i rather not go through the trouble.

 

[Arwin]

IMHO it is a drastic backstep for me. I cannot fathom using a 192mb PC without hardware 2D/3D acceleration.

TBH i cannot say for certain how Linux works under these dire circumstances but even with some compromising, i rather not go through the trouble.

But on the other hand, the access to the framebuffer might have a lot higher bandwidth than nearly any PC you can think of? From the vids I've seen so far, I don't get the impression it's anywhere near slow in that regard.

 

[inefficient]

I don't care about 3D acceleration under Linux at all.

I do care about getting some decent 2D acceleration though! It's something we take for granted nowadays but when it is gone you actually miss it.

The 2D performance issues right now that would just go away with the proper RSX hardware support. I'm optimistic that eventually something will get something. But I'm not going to hold my breath. And I think Sony has bigger things to focus on right now over trying to may a few Linux users (who are already quite happy) more comfortable.

 

[crystalcube]

Most computing applications don't need a 3D GPU.

accelerated drivers also help in 2D . Screen drawing , user interaction are much faster with an accelerated driver as compared to framebuffer device. I have not yet tried YDL on PS3 yet , so cant say how good current implementation is. But last time I tried (linux on x86 with nVidia video card) framebuffer device vs accelerated driver , it made a lot of difference.

 

[fireshot]

Well i have only seen a vid of booting up and exiting Linux. It did not tell me much.

To explain clearer, i think a budget PC today has a dual core celeron/a64 and 512mb of shared memory. By compromising, i do not expect to run my image editing, charts drawing, my BT/AV/FW/IM/RSS clients in the background, foobar and IE7 tabs all at once. I think i will have to scale down even further with PS3 Linux(as it is) for a responsive env.

It is all about the minimal experience, once we come to a certain level, it is hard to go back. I could if i *want* the PS3 Linux computing experience, luckily im not hardcore for that.

I see the PS3 open source more for the XBMC-HD development.

 

[Arwin]

There is a video of someone using VLC to play back an HD video, download stuff using FireFox and chat using gaim. I could not detect any slowness there whatsoever. This was using Fedora, I think. So if there are issues, I'll be happy to know what they are?

 

[patsu]

From an average user's point of view...

I think hard disk spin speed is a bigger problem than hardware accelerated display driver in regular PS3 usage. Normal word processing, web browsing, email reading works fine once loaded. Disk heavy activities (e.g., compiling) is the major source of slowdown. This is why I intend to swap in a fast drive for some serious work.

For heavy media usage (e.g., movie viewing), the Linux folks have to start leveraging on Cell later. It probably depends on the codec used and resolution.

My second problem is the UI. I'm too used to Windows so Enlightenment feels a little weird. But GNOME in Gentoo feels right at home and very easy to use since it's like Mac OS 7. It made a big difference the first time I loaded it up.

BTW, PS3 does not need to stop at XBMC-HD development. It can also excel in Internet applications (AJAX and stuff), voice applications or even process control.

 

[inefficient]

But on the other hand, the access to the framebuffer might have a lot higher bandwidth than nearly any PC you can think of? From the vids I've seen so far, I don't get the impression it's anywhere near slow in that regard.

Currently we can play full screen video under linux but it shows tearing and sync issues. Even more so in 1080p. But I am hopeful a double buffered frame buffer output module for VLC will fix that.

I haven't see any good tests yet on ps3 framebuffer performance under Linux. Particularly fully screen double buffered performance.

I believe pages are being written in XDR and have to be flipped to DDR by the hypervisor. But according to that old devstation presentation Cell is supposed to be able to write at ~4GB/s to video memory. So I don't think there should be any problem.

Even still it would be nice to have amenities like freaking hardware accel mouse cursors. So that your cursor doesn't have an epileptic fit when the CPU is under heavy load. In general, there are issues with just rendering GUI components when the CPU is already busy.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

IMHO it is a drastic backstep for me. I cannot fathom using a 192mb PC without hardware 2D/3D acceleration. [/quote]But why? I mean, slow 2D redraw is obviosult to be avoided, but you don't need a 3D GPU to handle that when you have a fast processor for the task. 3D acceleration plays no role. As for memory, reports are such that multitasking on PS3 hasn't been a problem, and that's on unoptimized software slugging it out on the PPE. Sure, it's never going to make a great professional-level photo-editing platform with 198 MB available, but for everything else that seems to be plenty enough. I don't see making RSX available is essential to web browsing, messaging, encoding music, typing letters etc. that make up most computing tasks. The improvements that we want could be handled by the already available Cell, and pander to Sony's wishes to have people develop techniques for their CPU.

accelerated drivers also help in 2D . Screen drawing , user interaction are much faster with an accelerated driver as compared to framebuffer device.

A SPE dedicated to that should be sufficient, and provide a fast experience without needing to make RSX available.

 

[inefficient]

There is a video of someone using VLC to play back an HD video, download stuff using FireFox and chat using gaim. I could not detect any slowness there whatsoever. This was using Fedora, I think. So if there are issues, I'll be happy to know what they are?

It might not stand out in a video. But when you actually use it, you can feel it. You know when you remove your video drivers from XP PC and are just using the standard MS VGA drivers. It feels like that. It's tolerable though.

But usually I just X into my PS3 from another machine when I want to try something on it.

Anyone who wants to do any serious work under linux on the ps3 has to be mad to just directly hook it up to a kb/mouse/monitor and work with it directly. In it's current state, exporting the display to another machine is a much more pleasant experience. So either make use of another linux box, or use a PC X-Server like Xming or Exceed.

Xming for the PC is awesome BTW and free: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Xming

 

[SPM]

On a modern PC Linux on framebuffer without any 2D or 3D acceleration is fast with pretty well all applications. Any noticable delay is usually down to a slow Internet connection or loading or swapping from Hard Drive. What acceleration is required for are games (2D or 3D), audio, and movies. I am using a Linux PC at work right now on framebuffer, and I have no problems with speed.

The PS3 is perfectly capable with framebuffer for normal use, but movie clip and audio acceleration is necessary for the full rich media experience.

The PS3 should also have 2D acceleration like most video cards on Linux - I don't see why Sony should block this. Also full OpenGL hardware support should be provided under Linux but I don't care if Sony slows down the 3D commands not used by Compiz and Beryl to discourage marketing of full spec games running under Linux. I can't see why Sony should not be able to provide this - they have all the drivers for RSX. If Sony is serious about PS3 as a multi-media PC they will have to do this.

 

[patsu]

Anyone who wants to do any serious work under linux on the ps3 has to be mad to just directly hook it up to a kb/mouse/monitor and work with it directly. In it's current state, exporting the display to another machine is a much more pleasant experience. So either make use of another linux box, or use a PC X-Server like Xming or Exceed.

That's something I have not tried yet. But I agree using PS3 as some sort of app/media server makes the most sense (e.g., DLNA protocol is derived from HTTP, applications can also be served via HTTP, X-protocol, ...). Or using PS3 as a web client accessing remote applications.

For now, I'm using my PS3 for bill payment (Wellsfargo online)... coz I load and unload too many junks on my laptop. These software come from all over the world, so I feel safer doing all my online finance on a separate computer (PS3 happens to be around, and is faster than my old laptop for this purpose).

I am also trying some simple development using vi, gcc and other scripting languages. The only thing that gets to me is the long compile. Usually I just swivel around and continue my real-work. When it does get complicated, I will definitely use Mike Acton's approach to cross-compile for PS3.

 

[Crayon]

Anyone who wants to do any serious work under linux on the ps3 has to be mad to just directly hook it up to a kb/mouse/monitor and work with it directly.

On the otherhand, if you aren't doing any serious work, I'd say it's very functional. I was borrowing a mac mini for a month before I got this thing (YDL PS3) running. I'm doing all the same things I did on the mac. Just browsing, email, stealing music, messaging, trolling for bizarre porn. You know. The basics. Works great. The only meaningful performance snag is when this thing hits the swapfile hard. Then the slowness of the 2.5" drive and the lack of ram conspire to slow stuff down. On the other hand, It's comparable to what I experience on a budget PC.

 

[Fafalada]

However, this does not support Fafalada's argument - in this case, they are making use of the module in the Firmware that contains the PS1 emulator.

All I'm saying is that such events could have some pretty ill after effects for Sony (from 3rd parties getting pissed to losing a lot of PSN business directly), not to mention the platform has by all accounts been hit by piracy harder then most to begin with, and from other recent news(unrelated to PS1 emu), pirates are making more headway now, then ever.
I guess such things would at the very least make them extremely vary of adding anything further to their platforms that could potentially increase security risks, no matter if the chances of that are small or big.

Pana,
it isn't really an issue whether there are actual risks - all I'm saying is that with RSX not being available at start, and given experience on other platforms, I can't see Sony having further incentive to give access. At least not in any near future.