PS3 network + back-compat news

[Tap In]

The MS solution for the Xbox emulation in X360 requires a recompiled .xbe (the Xbox executable). It's actually quite semblable to the methode CXBX, the PC Xbox emulator, uses, when the emulator starts a .xbe it creates an .exe, this exe is then excuted by the emulator.
This type of "emulation", which is more transcodage than emulation, in the fact, is quite rare.

Most of the time, good emulation is obtain by the dynamic recompilation of the code, on the fly, by the emulateur. This doesn't require any new executable
...

thank you

 

[rounin]

Anyway, I'd not expect any substantial differences. PS BC on PS2 didn't force perspective correction on texturemaps, so I'm rather doubtful they'll force (optional) HDTV rez, AA and stuff like that in PS3.

Actually, perspective correction on PSX games is impossible to do. Just ask the authors of the already perfected PSX emulators.

 

[Fox5]

Actually, perspective correction on PSX games is impossible to do. Just ask the authors of the already perfected PSX emulators.

Yeah, but high resolutions and bilinear filtering definetely helped minimize the effects.

 

[kyleb]

Yeah, I'm hoping they do some stuff to improve the graphics on backwards compatable games. I'm currently playing the orignal Silent Hill emulated on my PC, I threw it into my PS2 just to check and the difference is night and day. Not only the improvments in rendering resolution as well as texture filtering, but the fog on the emulator looks basicly like a modren games while on the PS2 it looks awful.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Didnt want to make another thread. But heres Some confirmation of some rumors via PSM via ZBOX.

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=437640

Here is a little PS3 info. There is actually a bunch of articles about the PS3 and its games, but this stuff is off in little boxes to the side. Though, some of this is alreayd known.

-Worldwide launch in the first half of November; expect shortages
-no official price, likely to be $399
-Comes standard with a 60GB Hard Drive
-Launch games and final controller will be unvieled at E3
-All games will come on blu-ray discs
-games won't have to contain regional lockouts
-PSone & PS2 games will play in 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.
-Xbox Live type serivce to launch with the PS3, with no charge for playing games online

Like I said, there are other articles about PS3 and its games, but I'm not going to read them right now.

*sorry if already posted

 

[rounin]

Yeah, but high resolutions and bilinear filtering definetely helped minimize the effects.

Indeed they help. But they just make incoherent textures look like nice and beautiful incoherent textures. Look down a hall and the lack of perspective correction is painfully obvious no matter what you do

 

[PeterT]

1. Isn't the framebuffer bandwidth of RSX still slightly higher? It probably has better latency too.

Erm, no? PS2 has a 2560 bit bus with 47 GB/s of bandwidth.

2. It may not be a 1:1 emulation, for instance they could use pixel shaders in place of some framebuffer effects.

I don't see how such high-level optimizations would be possible without per-game profiles...

Also, maybe all the bandwidth conserving techniques that PS2 lacked will come into play here. PS2 ports to the PC didn't need video cards with 20GB/s of bandwidth to play them.

The bandwidth saving/campression techniques will help, sure, but if you have a game with mad alpha blending or some of the more interesting PS2 framebuffer effects one has to wonder if that is enough.

 

[Phil]

Erm, no? PS2 has a 2560 bit bus with 47 GB/s of bandwidth.
I don't see how such high-level optimizations would be possible without per-game profiles... The bandwidth saving/campression techniques will help, sure, but if you have a game with mad alpha blending or some of the more interesting PS2 framebuffer effects one has to wonder if that is enough.

Perhaps the GS could be emulated across multiple SPEs and then sent the framebuffer in tiles to RSX in one pass?

 

[London Geezer]

Perhaps the GS could be emulated across multiple SPEs and then sent the framebuffer in tiles to RSX in one pass?

They could, but i don't know how they could do that without per-game profiles, which would be the end of that "100% BC" claim...

 

[Phil]

why would you need game profiles? If the bandwidth and latency is enough to simulate a virtual 4 MB of eDRAM across a few SPEs, I don't quite see why multiple profiles would be required. If the GS could be simulated properly, it shouldn't really make a difference...

 

[London Geezer]

why would you need game profiles? If the bandwidth and latency is enough to simulate a virtual 4 MB of eDRAM across a few SPEs, I don't quite see why multiple profiles would be required. If the GS could be simulated properly, it shouldn't really make a difference...

Anything can happen i guess, but it would take a hell of a good emulation system!

 

[PeterT]

To me, it still seems most logical to include the 4 MB on RSX, but if they did that we would have heard about it by now, wouldn't we?

 

[London Geezer]

To me, it still seems most logical to include the 4 MB on RSX, but if they did that we would have heard about it by now, wouldn't we?

Most likely, as it could be used for a lot more than just PS2 BC... Unless it has some seriously strict NDAs on it, we would have found out already... nAo or Deano won't comment on this.

 

[Qroach]

The MS solution for the Xbox emulation in X360 requires a recompiled .xbe (the Xbox executable). It's actually quite semblable to the methode CXBX, the PC Xbox emulator, uses, when the emulator starts a .xbe it creates an .exe, this exe is then excuted by the emulator.
This type of "emulation", which is more transcodage than emulation, in the fact, is quite rare.

Most of the time, good emulation is obtain by the dynamic recompilation of the code, on the fly, by the emulateur. This doesn't require any new executable.
And for the graphics, in the PS2 case, they might opt for a High Level emulation, which would permit to enhance the graphics.

extremely close to the one seen in the PC Xbox emulator CXbX

Xbox games on X360 are rendered in 480p + AA and then upscaled by the video scaler to the desired resolution.

This is NOT correct. MS has already stated that they are not generating new executables, or requiring new exe's to be created by whomever. executables could be huge and would require the original source to generate if recompiling was even an option (which i don't htink ever was). That would require far too much disk space and I don't think MS or any console make has the right to decompile and recompile the source code of a game they don't own. That sounds like a legal mess.

They have gone on record stating that emulation profiles are stored for games, but this isn't unlike many other emulators out there (such as dynamic recompling emulators) where the profile for a game just tells the emulator which features to enable for best performance.

 

[Qroach]

All this talk of whether what MS is doing is really hardware or software soloution is a waste of time. This applies to sony too, but anybody making an emulator will use hardware features anytime it will provide the benefit of increased performance. That neither makes it specifically a hardware or software soloution.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

To me, it still seems most logical to include the 4 MB on RSX, but if they did that we would have heard about it by now, wouldn't we?

Kutaragi went on record as saying there is no eDRAM in PS3.

 

[Bobbler]

Kutaragi went on record as saying there is no eDRAM in PS3.

Maybe there isn't eDram, but does that preclude the existance of something else that can emulate it while serving another function during normal operation? Just a thought. It would seem possible, and could possibly explain the phantom transistors (~270m for G71 vs 300+m for RSX). Who knows though... certainly nobody that'll talk.

 

[Fox5]

I don't see how such high-level optimizations would be possible without per-game profiles...

PSX and N64 emulators both currently have plugins that emulate framebuffer effects with dx9 pixel shaders (and opengl 2.0) and I'm pretty sure they don't use per-game profiles.

It would seem possible, and could possibly explain the phantom transistors (~270m for G71 vs 300+m for RSX). Who knows though... certainly nobody that'll talk.

The extra transistors can't be from supporting whatever new type of ram PS3 is using, or perhaps integrating a memory controller onto the gpu?

 

[Bobbler]

The extra transistors can't be from supporting whatever new type of ram PS3 is using, or perhaps integrating a memory controller onto the gpu?

I wouldn't think that would really add 30-40m transistors... some of that would be replacement, and some would be new, but there is a lot of breathing room between G71 transistor count and RSX (especially if we assume things like PureVideo were dumped).

The RSX isn't really the console's memory controller (not like Xbox/X360), as far as I know. All it would need is a functional connection to the FlexI/O bus vs PCI-E and the ability to access all the ram in the system (which is something nvidia has done on those low end cards -- not sure how many extra transistors we're talking to do that though).

4mb of some type of memory on RSX seems feasible, kind of!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

4MB SRAM as cache