[PS3] Killzone 3

[patsu]

Move support in KZ - I don't care at all.
3D support in KZ - I don't care at all.
I just hope that those things don't take away essential resources where they are really needed to make it a better game!

This! Wasting time on gimmicky stuff and not the game itself is what Iam worried about.

Yes, this is rather true. It would be better to nail down the interesting gameplay in KZ3 first before looking at 3D and Move. In LBP2, they outsourced the Move integration to someone else while the core team focuses on the fundamentals and 3D.

Not sure if Guerilla has the resources to handle so many things at once, especially if they have other development in the wings.

From what I see so far, it's same old same old gameplay. I think people are looking for killer gameplay at this point.

 

[patsu]

And therein lies the problem. At the EG Expo I played one of the on-rail shooters with Move in a gun-style attachment and it worked well. I'm not 100% convinced that it actually targeted where I pointed (rather, it felt like the crosshair resided about 1/2 screen below where I was actually pointing), but overall the game was fun enough played with Move.

During the KZ3 dev talk however, he spent a lot of time talking about the difficulity of balancing Move integration.... and not it seems because it is either easier or more intuitive than using dualshock. It was concerning that someone who had obviously been playing with Move for a long time, struggled to shoot any of the enemies.... even when they were standing still. In fact, the only time he really made any kills was when in ironsight mode, and that's because the game auto-aims to the nearest target. And then, during a couple of reloads he ended up looking at the sky, etc.

It just really didn't look like it worked all that well for KZ3. That's probably why he mentioned they were looking at seperate MP lobbies for DS and Move players.

I'm like that too. Many games I ended up with no kills. Some games I won every fight. If I'm not careful, I end up looking at the ground when setting up the mine, or looking at the sky when throwing grenade. It's a strange feeling. There are too many dimensions for me to make mistakes.

In my experience, the control settings matter *A LOT*. Switching to iWaggle's recommendation is a great help. It made a huge difference, but still not quite enough. I will need to tweak it more.

I noticed that I'm still improving in Move FPS though in a hapzard manner. I wonder if it may "click" all of a sudden. Yesterday's game was pretty good for me for example (I scored close to 700xp with Move, highest dude was 1200xp; I was ranked third). If they have a game controller for the same scheme, I think I should do better too because the hold is more natural.

EDIT:

I had the same experience with SOCOM 4.
Try to aim in Sports Championship...for instance when you want to select something in the menu, now imagen to headshoot someone with this controls.

Need to wait and see. Sports Champions' menu is smoothed and slowed compared to MAG. The MAG pointer is noticeably more sensitive, so much so that I needed to rest my hand on the arm rest initially. I suspect Socom may tune their sensitivity up in the final game. In the heat of a battle, my Move pointer will be all over the enemies' body because I can't stablize my aim quickly while moving yet. But for some reason, I can usually win a fight like this.

If I needed to swap weapon or change ammo in the middle of a fight (or when someone caught me unprepared), I would lose the duel because I still couldn't get used to the button layout yet. It's very confusing and I usually ended up looking up or down.

I think if the enemy is close enough to me, I'll have trouble tracking him. But in yesterday's fight, none of them were able to get that close unless they sneaked on me. I could drop 2 at a time in one case. But that's MAG. Will have to see what KZ3 can do.

 

[Trejser]

Killzone 3 beta info and trailer: http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2010...here-is-your-chance-to-get-in/#comment-108080

Game looks phenomenal

 

[patsu]

US has the same beta policy:
* Must be PS+ members.
* Must download KZ3 theme on 19th
* Only the earliest 10,000 users (5000 from US and 5000 from EU) who do so will be selected.

The 3D version is probably not ready for show yet. Otherwise, they'd reserve some for 3DTV owners exclusively.

 

[patsu]

Gah… US Official Blog has a mistake ?

According to here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23731107&postcount=2

Some other facts:

* SCEA blog has a typo; 10,000 codes for SCEE, 5,000 codes for SCEA

* "The Beta will last for as long as we need to get good feedback."

* The theme will go up on the 13th for SCEE, 19th for SCEA

* "We will be hosting 3 maps with the Exoskeleton and the Jetpack level being 2 of those. No content will be left out, as we want to test content that is in there."

* No 3D or move support in the beta.

 

[upnorthsox]

No 3D support is understandable, but why no Move? You'd think they'd want feedback, maybe they don't it taking up all the feedback?

 

[patsu]

Probably still trying to balance Move vs DS3 players internally. If the beta is long enough, may be they will patch it in later ?

 

[Billy Idol]

Here another vid showing KZ3 + Move:

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/112/1126681p1.html

it clearly shows how already broken Move impementation is:

when you are Move-ing the target, only the gun/cross moves, but not the screen.
You have to hit the border of the screen that the view starts to change.
This was the same in SOCOM4.

Why in hell are they doing this? What is the reason behind this ultra broken implementation. Just use Move as a Mouse, and the Nav as WASD - problem solved, good controlls implemented, everyone happy and I would be probably interested...

 

[specwarGP2]

you cant really say its broken. for all we know in that demonstration the bounding box was set up that way.

 

[ultragpu]

The new beta trailer is rather disappointing, the editing and camera angle are down right boring. Even some of the MP footage from Gamescom impressed me a lot more than this. I just wanna see a new full blown campaign trailer with updated build, could care less about MP personally.

 

[Rotmm]

What is the reason behind this ultra broken implementation. Just use Move as a Mouse...

If you look at the vids from the EG Expo (assuming that part is in there) you'll see where Steven Ter Heide talks specifically about that how making it like a mouse pointer causes nausea.

Why that doesn't happen with a mouse/kb combo, I'm not sure. However, I guess it's something to do with the closeness a PC player is to the screen and therefore there is little conflict between the fact moving actions on the screen and your own peripheral vision. When playing on a TV, you are significantly further from the screen and the clash between "through the eyes" in a fps and what your eyes are actually seeing outside of that is much greater.

Someone playing a FPS on a PC can be fine, while the person looking over the shoulder at that same image can often feel queasy.

Also, another difference between Move and the Mouse is that when not moving (for example, sniping for a headshot) the screen is literally not moving as the mouse in stable. With move, when trying to do the same minute hand movements would translate to a constantly juddering screen. Also, unlike a mouse, those movements would be significantly affected by how far you are from the screen. So play 3 feet from a TV and small movements of your hand will translate to small juddering of the screen image. 3 meters from the screen and those same natural small movements and shakes would translate to the TV image shaking wildly.

So really, it's not as easy as saying, "make it like a mouse and keyboard, job done" because the Move and Navcon are not a mouse and keyboard. That said, in Killzone 3 the bounding box (ie: how far the recticule moves to the edge of the screen before player turning starts) is user definable, so you should be able to get close to mouse movement if you want to play that way, but without the screen judder and reduced chance of motion sickness.

 

[Rolf N]

If you look at the vids from the EG Expo (assuming that part is in there) you'll see where Steven Ter Heide talks specifically about that how making it like a mouse pointer causes nausea.

Yes, and riding boats causes nausea*, therefore let's ban all boats.

I certainly did not puke while playing Metroid Prime 3 with zero deadzone ("advanced controls" setting turned on). I want that option. It's the best. Give it to me.

 

[Billy Idol]

Also, another difference between Move and the Mouse is that when not moving (for example, sniping for a headshot) the screen is literally not moving as the mouse in stable. With move, when trying to do the same minute hand movements would translate to a constantly juddering screen. Also, unlike a mouse, those movements would be significantly affected by how far you are from the screen. So play 3 feet from a TV and small movements of your hand will translate to small juddering of the screen image. 3 meters from the screen and those same natural small movements and shakes would translate to the TV image shaking wildly..

Ah, that is really a good explanation. Did not think about this. Yeah, would be distracting when you try to headshot and the whole view is shaking...

EDIT: just saw this MAG 2.0 movie, where TTP explains how they get rid of the small movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFk0D5AxoHE&feature=player_embedded

 

[Billy Idol]

Hm, I just thought about why GG insists in giving you the pistol with unlimited ammo. In contrast to KZ2 you can carry now 2 primary weapons+the pistol with unlimited ammo.

I think the reason is, that the gamedesign is much easier, when you can always guarantee that the player has ammo.

For instance, I just played HALO Reach, where you don't have weapons with unlimited ammo. In rare occasions fighting got really tough as I run out of ammo, the elites where to difficult to kill (take to much hits), so I basically did not have a chance to gain a new weapon or new ammo - I imagen that this could get frustrating if it happens to often.

On the other hand, if you make the decision that you always have a rather strong secondary weapon with unlimmited ammo - you don't have this big gamedesign (where to put weapons and ammo in a level) burden.

To be honest, I am not sure which system I prefer - I typically like it that I am responsible for the weapon management.

 

[patsu]

Ah, that is really a good explanation. Did not think about this. Yeah, would be distracting when you try to headshot and the whole view is shaking...

EDIT: just saw this MAG 2.0 movie, where TTP explains how they get rid of the small movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFk0D5AxoHE&feature=player_embedded

Yap, the effect Rotmm mentioned doesn't really happen in MAG and EyePet. I think it's because the system knows where the controller tip is in 3D space, it's like projecting the screen forward so that the magnification doesn't get in the way. Like drawing on a vertical piece of paper using a regular pencil.

Remember Dr. Marks and Anton claimed that you can draw and write easily with Move ? It doesn't feel like drawing with a 3 foot pencil at all.

At the same time, they can tune the sensitivity.


OTOH, it's true that your gunsight will wander a little because it's free floating. Need practice, or rest your arm on the arm rest.

 

[nightshade]

OTOH, it's true that your gunsight will wander a little because it's free floating. Need practice, or rest your arm on the arm rest.

That or rest it over your lap...its the best way to have a stable crosshair.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

The problem with KZ3 Move implementation is theur philosophy behind it. SOCOM and MAG are implementing it for the hardcore, for laser mouse like precision in aiming, so that you can get perfect headshots and keept the reticle on someone's head while strafing.

Result: A system which is sensitive and helps the gamer.

Guerilla Games has repeated many times in interviews that they are opening up their game to casual audiences by implementing Move support ! There in lies the problem. We are buying move to dominate in KZ3, to top matches and leaderboards while GG thinks such gamers will play with a DS3 ! they are inviting people who play only "Start tye Party" by bringing in Move. Tyere is wide gap between what we r expecting and what GG intends to deliver. The result is that pressing L1 automatically snaps the scope to enemies if u r using Move, which to me sounds absolutely contrdictory to the very purpose of Move which is better aiming capability in the hands of the player. It should translate to lesser aim assist whereas GG is going the opposite way by giving complete aim-assist to players with MOVE. tye problem lies in the fact that we s

 

[RenegadeRocks]

ee MOVE as a hardcore product WRT to shooters whereas GG thinks its casuals who willmcome into KZ3 with their MOVEs.

Result: A system which is going completely opposite to oyr expectations.

I think Sony should get up and tell GG that they have been showing MOVE as a hardcore product WRT to shooters and not as a casual one. I have concrete plans of buying MOVE, but not for sports Champions but for KZ3 and Resistance 3 ! I hope my money doesn't get wasted :-/ !

 

[patsu]

They (MAG, Socom 4, KZ3) need to standardize on the gun accessory use. It may simplify the game.

 

[Rotmm]

The problem with KZ3 Move implementation is theur philosophy behind it. SOCOM and MAG are implementing it for the hardcore, for laser mouse like precision in aiming, so that you can get perfect headshots and keept the reticle on someone's head while strafing.

Result: A system which is sensitive and helps the gamer.

Guerilla Games has repeated many times in interviews that they are opening up their game to casual audiences by implementing Move support ! There in lies the problem. We are buying move to dominate in KZ3, to top matches and leaderboards while GG thinks such gamers will play with a DS3

I think you have it the wrong way around. MAG has introduced pointer smoothing and a constant aim-assist, making it easier for the Move player. So far in KZ2, they are still implementing the fabled 1:1 sub-pixel accuracy for the pointer, with no aim-assist except for when in iron-sights mode.

So the MAG team have looked at the lessons learned by Wii FPS developers and made aiming less-precise and easier, adding further Wii-like refinements such as auto-targeting and sticking to the target, making the game more accessable to the casuals. In KZ2 it's still too hardcore, but I'm sure by release date GG will casualised in a similar way to MAG.