[PS3] Killzone 3

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Lack of horsepower relative to what? You can make a 1080p game by making everything very simple, or make a massively sub-HD game because of complexity. In the end, it's still the same "horsepower", just used differently. Both the 360 and PS3 are stuck with what they have, and are seemingly very close to each other in terms of performance, both being better or worse with different things. So if the Alan Wake guys trade resolution for massive overdraw and lighting complexity, then it's still the same "horsepower" it would have taken to make the game 720p with less overdraw and a simpler lighting system. The same argument can be made for Killzone 3 and whatever compromises they decided to make to fit in whatever tech they felt was more important for their game.

Yep! If they would've keep everything the same as KZ2, they probably could've made KZ3 in 1080p (based on KZ2 level running at 50% within the KZ3 engine)! We know how simple KZ2 was, right?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Yep! If they would've keep everything the same as KZ2, they probably could've made KZ3 in 1080p (based on KZ2 level running at 50% within the KZ3 engine)! We know how simple KZ2 was, right?

1080p? I would say that's incredibly doubtful. 50% of what?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Chill! You're spelling out my words, not realising that you're saying the same thing.

If you were saying the same thing, then I misunderstood.

 

[2real4tv]

This is very tense at the

Spoiler

Narville rescue part

 

[Neb]

Actually, no? If you had the horsepower you would pick a higher resolution. You probably just wanted to refer to comparing different ways of dealing with a lack of horsepower.

You mean like GTAIV and RDR for example?

Also I read the AW part as just explicit to show what dynamic sunshafts looks like that has collision detection and sillhouette dectection, nothign else. But it seems some went in full force to talk down AW from all angles despite game not even being compared to KZ3 or PS3 exclusives. Anyway static sunshafts might well work good enough if there is little reason for it to move and how it's been placed due to that. It still can and does give very good results. But sure they are technically cheaper than dynamic sunshafts that has collision detection, especially if sunshafts are made by lots of slices to form a volume. But even if static they can still be precious and have volume with slices, just to look from below to see how it looks and from sides to.

Also would be good if some people toned down the excessive emotional attachment some notches, it's downright scary like if it was for life and death in RL. Even worse almost an exclusive phenomena for PS/SONY side related things. Change that.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

1080p? I would say that's incredibly doubtful. 50% of what?

Didn't you just give the whole 1080p/same horsepower speech? Why are you seriously doubting 1080p, now? Maybe, I'm misunderstand your previous post.

http://www.psuni.com/killzone-2-only-utilized-50-of-playstation-3s-processor-5255/

"We found a lot of power after we completed Killzone 2,” Guerrilla’s Hulst said. “Just to give you an example on the graphics side: we pulled a level from Killzone 2 into the Killzone 3 engine and it ran at 50 per cent. That’s how much power we’ve been able to find.

“You can see it in split screen co-op.”

 

[Neb]

Yep! If they would've keep everything the same as KZ2, they probably could've made KZ3 in 1080p (based on KZ2 level running at 50% within the KZ3 engine)! We know how simple KZ2 was, right?

There are different limitations regarding HW. 50% says very little without proper context. There are different HW parts/units that could be stalling other HW parts/units due to just being taxed out. Also 1920x1080 is over 2x the pixel amount of 1280x720...

 

[ShadowRunner]

Arwin was simply saying that with unlimeted horsepower resolution wouldnt be sacrificed, thus lack of horsepower is the reason for resolution not being higher. It was a joke, kinda. He went on to say that different compimises are made by different devs to deal with lack of horsepower, which is true.

Also would be good if some people toned down the excessive emotional attachment some notches, it's downright scary like if it was for life and death in RL. Even worse almost an exclusive phenomena for PS/SONY side related things. Change that.

Id say its pretty much the same on both sides, its just that if your not posting such negative posts on one side but are on the other it just seems like that. I still have scars from the Reach and Forza threads for making slightly negative remarks

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

You mean like GTAIV and RDR for example?

Also I read the AW part as just explicit to show what dynamic sunshafts looks like that has collision detection and sillhouette dectection, nothign else. But it seems some went in full force to talk down AW from all angles despite game not even being compared to KZ3 or PS3 exclusives. Anyway static sunshafts might well work good enough if there is little reason for it to move and how it's been placed due to that. It still can and does give very good results. But sure they are technically cheaper than dynamic sunshafts that has collision detection, especially if sunshafts are made by lots of slices to form a volume. But even if static they can still be precious and have volume with slices, just to look from below to see how it looks and from sides to.

Also would be good if some people toned down the excessive emotional attachment some notches, it's downright scary like if it was for life and death in RL. Even worse almost an exclusive phenomena for PS/SONY side related things. Change that.

I'd like to compare baseball games, but I can't do that here.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Didn't you just give the whole 1080p/same horsepower speech? Why are you seriously doubting 1080p, now? Maybe, I'm misunderstand your previous post.

http://www.psuni.com/killzone-2-only-utilized-50-of-playstation-3s-processor-5255/

I have no doubts they made optimizations that made better use of the hardware. But what does, "ran at 50%" even mean? It's pretty much impossible to comprehend on its own. It's a PR statement, and best avoided altogether.

 

[Neb]

I'd like to compare baseball games, but I can't do that here.

What does your answer have to do with what I said? I mean atleast put some thought behind it instead of the sake of having last word with "anything to grab at" in some desperate attempt or such (you explain it). :smile:

 

[Ruskie]

Don't we have this already? The problem is people that can't stand to hear/read good things others say about a game. For some reason, they believe a few issues keeps a game from being considered as something that stands above other games. These people separate all these techniques/feature into individual components, in order to say it's not better than that same technique in Brand X's game. Meanwhile, they are disregarding all the other things that are worse. It's crazy!

One example is comparing Killzone 3's lack of volumetric lighting to a game that does it, but only renders 518K pixels. Another example would be comparing Killzone 3's lack of GI to a game that has it; but it has terrible jaggies, poorer animations, poorer audio options, less particles, poorer gun models, less draw distance, tons of pop-in, a non-3D...3D mode, less characters on screen, etc.

Please explain how this gets us anywhere in the grand realm of technical discussions. This problem can't be solved, forum/thread separation or not, without using whole comparisons (or at least more than one or two components) of games.

It isn't about calm logical technical people versus emotionally crazed fanboys. It's about improper comparisons being pushed as if it's coming from calm logical technical people. And, that is infuriating!

I think thats not exactly what people are arguing here about,here is my view on it.

Someone posts KZ3 screenshot and "some" guys go overly crazy about how great game looks and how its almost generation ahead as far as tech goes.Than someone mentions that it lacks SSAO,HDR,volumetric lighting and has baked sun shafts and people get tad too emotional.

What I think is that,they don't have problem with game looking great,as it does,but more with the fact that people are acting like it features some alien tech while the case is that its a great looking game where developers have obviously tuned and chosen right tech that goes with their vision while not "blowing" the hardware up.

Thats when you get to the point were people are starting to be butthurth and start to let the "truth" come out of them.As presented by ultragpu

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

There are different limitations regarding HW. 50% says very little without proper context. There are different HW parts/units that could be stalling other HW parts/units due to just being taxed out. Also 1920x1080 is over 2x the pixel amount of 1280x720...

Yes, of course. This reminds me of an old WB(?) cartoon with the salesman trying to sell a life insurance policy with all these restrictions. Do you really have to be that precise before you believe it? I ask because you don't seem to need that kind of detail in other areas of the boards/forum.

Maybe they would have to compromise on a few statues to reach 1080p. I can tell that possibility really disturbs you.

Arwin was simply saying that with unlimeted horsepower resolution wouldnt be sacrificed, thus lack of horsepower is the reason for resolution not being higher. It was a joke, kinda. He went on to say that different compimises are made by different devs to deal with lack of horsepower, which is true.

Thanks! I appreciate the clarification.

 

[Ruskie]

Didn't you just give the whole 1080p/same horsepower speech? Why are you seriously doubting 1080p, now? Maybe, I'm misunderstand your previous post.

http://www.psuni.com/killzone-2-only-utilized-50-of-playstation-3s-processor-5255/

60% of SPU use that they said at one point does NOT mean that they could go for more than two times pixels on screen.Dunno where did you get that from?

What Nebula is telling you...The fact that you have SPU time left does not mean that RSX could draw twice the pixels on screen.It does not mean that you would have memory for that.It just means that they had 40% spu time left for things like MLAA,improved lighting etc. since Cell is not the one HW with ROPs.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Yes, of course. This reminds me of an old WB(?) cartoon with the salesman trying to sell a life insurance policy with all these restrictions. Do you really have to be that precise before you believe it? I ask because you don't seem to need that kind of detail in other areas of the boards/forum.

Maybe they would have to compromise on a few statues to reach 1080p. I can tell that possibility really disturbs you.

Any game could be 1080p with compromises. Saying that Killzone 2, left unchanged, could run at 1080p (I'm assuming at a stable 30fps) is possible, is pretty much not founded in anything, other than your belief that a completely unsubstantiated and unquantifiable metric("ran at 50%) without any context is true and valid.

 

[Neb]

Yes, of course. This reminds me of an old WB(?) cartoon with the salesman trying to sell a life insurance policy with all these restrictions. Do you really have to be that precise before you believe it? I ask because you don't seem to need that kind of detail in other areas of the boards/forum.

Actually I am trying to put your comment in context.

Yep! If they would've keep everything the same as KZ2, they probably could've made KZ3 in 1080p (based on KZ2 level running at 50% within the KZ3 engine)! We know how simple KZ2 was, right?

So I respond with...

There are different limitations regarding HW. 50% says very little without proper context. There are different HW parts/units that could be stalling other HW parts/units due to just being taxed out. Also 1920x1080 is over 2x the pixel amount of 1280x720...

Then this..

Yes, of course. This reminds me of an old WB(?) cartoon with the salesman trying to sell a life insurance policy with all these restrictions. Do you really have to be that precise before you believe it?

As you can see I am not saying the 50% usage is fake or false. What I am saying is you cant just say you would be able to dedicate all that extra to pixel shading magically.. or vertex shading etc.

I ask because you don't seem to need that kind of detail in other areas of the boards/forum.

Actually I do and if you look at my post history. And then I haven't even refuted the 50% perfomance usage claim here so I actually dont know what you are barking at. Maybe you need to chill down a bit and actually read my/others whole posts instead of instantly giving of punches into the air. Better that way.

Maybe they would have to compromise on a few statues to reach 1080p. I can tell that possibility really disturbs you.

Maybe they could have done it to reach over twice the pixel perfomance. And no it doesn't disturb me the slightest. They make graphical sacrifices + optimisations and make 30fps 1080p. Why would it disturb me?

 

[ShadowRunner]

60% of SPU use that they said at one point does NOT mean that they could go for more than two times pixels on screen.Dunno where did you get that from?

What Nebula is telling you...The fact that you have SPU time left does not mean that RSX could draw twice the pixels on screen.It does not mean that you would have memory for that.It just means that they had 40% spu time left for things like MLAA,improved lighting etc. since Cell is not the one HW with ROPs.

I think there may be some confusion. Im not aware of it myself but i have seen posts that mention GG have said they have tried out running KZ2 in the KZ3 engine and it ran at 50% (whatever that means). That would be seperate to the old comments about KZ2 only using 60% spu time, which i think is what you are refering to.

I would think memory would be a big barrier to KZ2 running in 1080p, doesnt it use lots of different buffers, which would cause a lot of extra memory to be needed at 1080p?

 

[Ruskie]

I think there may be some confusion. Im not aware of it myself but i have seen posts that mention GG have said they have tried out running KZ2 in the KZ3 engine and it ran at 50% (whatever that means). That would be seperate to the old comments about KZ2 only using 60% spu time, which i think is what you are refering to.

Oh my bad.I mean...Cliff said the level from Gears 1(no bs) ran at 500fps per second on 360 when Epics lead engineer put it on now much improved engine.They surely could for 15 times higher resolution if we are to go by that "logic" :smile:

 

[ShadowRunner]

Oh my bad.I mean...Cliff said the level from Gears 1(no bs) ran at 500fps per second on 360 when Epics lead engineer put it on now much improved engine.They surely could for 15 times higher resolution if we are to go by that "logic" :smile:

Oh ofcourse i didnt say i believe it can run at 1080p or not because of that comment, just pointing out the confusion so now you can call BS with the relevant info

 

[Neb]

Oh my bad.I mean...Cliff said the level from Gears 1(no bs) ran at 500fps per second on 360 when Epics lead engineer put it on now much improved engine.They surely could for 15 times higher resolution if we are to go by that "logic" :smile:

Source? :smile: