PS3 hardware failure

[specwarGP2]

They only send you a refurb if they cannot fix yours up right away, since they like to speed up the process when they are busy. That's what they told me. If you game is stuck they'll take it out for you and ship it right back to you separately.

If you send a 60gig you'll get the same one back even if it's not yours. So don't worry about not getting BC back.

huh? you always get a refurb. they're not going to send you a brand new PS3.

 

[vazel]

He's saying you'll get another person's fixed PS3 if they're not able to fix yours right away.

 

[Phil]

If you can copy them out, the game saves would work on a different PS3.

Sadly, this isn't guaranteed. When I bought my slim, I tried to copy over all my game saves using a USB stick. There are some games that are locked to the PS3 machine that created the save.

Soul Calibur 4 is such an example. I got it to work using the same PSN id on the new PS3, but you can not copy that save file to another PSN id on that machine (which I was able to do on the original PS3).

So it's either - keep the original PS3 and copy the save file to other PSN ids on that machine - or, copy save files to another PS3 but only be able to use it on the PSN id that copied it over.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Then he should better get his ass to work and tell his team or something to release a data management application where we can keep our data safe.

I am a really pissed consumer at the moment and this is not the customer service I am expecting from such a huge company. This is outrageous. The amount of money I have to pay is crazy to get it fixed. Awful customer relationship management

170 euros for a refurbished unit? The majority of hardware failures shouldnt even cost 100 to fix I am sure. 2 months to get my stuck disk game back? Lost data? 3 month warranty only after I receive the refurbished unit?

I was taking a good care of my system and the majority of my game time was spent on games installed on my HDD!! I did not use folding almost at all! This is completely inexcusable. And I am starting to see lots of pissed off consumers who found their selves with a dead PS3.

This is a manufacturing issue and not a result of excessive or bad usage

Well, whenever I send things to have BGAs replaced, it costs about $110 CAD per BGA from a small rework shop. If you include the fact that Sony is probably covering the shipping (or do they?) in the cost of the repair, it all adds up quick. This is also assuming that Sony contracts out the actual BGA replacements and other rework, and isn't doing it internally.

But it's one thing to pay that kind of money to repair a BGA on a board that costs you $50K, and another to do it on a product that cost you $400. I really don't know what the solution is, but I'm worried that next gen is going to be even worse. Obviously xbox has the most room for improvement, but I'm not really happy about reports of 60GB PS3s dieing. I don't want to have to replace mine. I've spent way too much money on consoles as is. I'd actually have to sit and make the judgement call about whether to replace it at all.

My brother put about 80 hours into Fallout 3 and lost his save. That was the only one that really bothered him. That and Bioshock. Then after his repair he played about the same amount of Fallout 3 and it died again. That time he sold the game.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Sadly, this isn't guaranteed. When I bought my slim, I tried to copy over all my game saves using a USB stick. There are some games that are locked to the PS3 machine that created the save.

Soul Calibur 4 is such an example. I got it to work using the same PSN id on the new PS3, but you can not copy that save file to another PSN id on that machine (which I was able to do on the original PS3).

So it's either - keep the original PS3 and copy the save file to other PSN ids on that machine - or, copy save files to another PS3 but only be able to use it on the PSN id that copied it over.

I don't understand why they would lock saves to a PS3? It doesn't make any sense. So what if people traded save games? As long as they aren't trading things of actual value, like games and dlc, I don't understand what the problem is.

 

[upnorthsox]

I don't understand why they would lock saves to a PS3? It doesn't make any sense. So what if people traded save games? As long as they aren't trading things of actual value, like games and dlc, I don't understand what the problem is.

Remember, it's the Dev who is locking the game saves, not Sony. Maybe the Dev just doesn't want game save cheating in their game, IMO it's a shortsighted approach but it is their call.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Remember, it's the Dev who is locking the game saves, not Sony. Maybe the Dev just doesn't want game save cheating in their game, IMO it's a shortsighted approach but it is their call.

I just don't see why they would care. If someone wants to cheat themselves out of experiencing the game, that's their own loss.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well, whenever I send things to have BGAs replaced, it costs about $110 CAD per BGA from a small rework shop. If you include the fact that Sony is probably covering the shipping (or do they?) in the cost of the repair, it all adds up quick. This is also assuming that Sony contracts out the actual BGA replacements and other rework, and isn't doing it internally.

The British consumer programme Watchdog covered this story, and it was revealed the cost of having a 3rd dot he job was only £20 or so cheaper than Sony. Sony do thework internally (IIRC) using precision laser welding tech, versus the oven method used by independents. And Sony said they ran the service at a loss, so they aren't making money from it.

Dunno how true any of that is, but that's what was said. Which Watchdog ignored, and they looked really amateur and immature in that programme...

 

[Phil]

I don't understand why they would lock saves to a PS3? It doesn't make any sense. So what if people traded save games? As long as they aren't trading things of actual value, like games and dlc, I don't understand what the problem is.

No idea, I just know that it is and there are more than a few games unfortunately that do lock. I don't think copying WipEout HD save-files to other systems work either. I tried that and the data is gone - although I didn't spend as much time as getting that one to work as I did with Soul Calibur 4.

The decision to do these things may be down to the developer, but ultimately, it should be Sony to set up rules about how certain things are done and guarantee a consistent experience throughout.

I see why some devs do it, although in most cases, I just think it's short sighted and ignores some of the issues. For instance: How can a legimate consumer copy his save file to new PS3? Even if this now works in some cases, what if he also decides to change his online PSN-id?

This is actually the reason why I haven't yet bought a slim for myself yet. Besides the missing B/C feature, I just don't want to go through the hassle of losing some of my game-saves.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Precision laser welding? I've never heard of it. You have a grid of solder balls underneath a part which have to solder to a footprint on a PCB. They must all be heated uniformly at the same time. I'm not sure how you would do that. I've only seen BGAs replaced casually, and don't know the exact names of the equipment, but the general idea for BGA reflow is this: You heat the entire PCB to a base temperature that does not melt the solder. Then you apply isolated heat specifically to the part that is being placed to push it over the melting point of the solder. Sometimes you have a little hood that fits over the footprint of the BGA that blows heated gas underneath the part to heat it evenly. I've never watched it carefully, but that's the general idea. The BGA itself may affect how evenly it is able to be heated and transfer heat to the PCB, which is why you can get inconsistencies in the quality of each solder joint underneath the part.

I'd like to see info on their laser method, if I can find it. A quick google search turned up nothing. If they are replacing the BGA at a loss, I have no idea why these repairs would be so expensive.

Edit: I found it. They use some type of infrared machine to heat the BGA part. I'll have to read up on how it works. I think they still heat the board to an ambient temp and the IR heat is applied directly to the part being replaced. This doc seems to be fairly in-depth and technical and mentions all types of heating, if you want to understand the complexity of the issue. http://www.research-intl.com/reflowhandbook/ballattach.pdf. Oh, and I did find links about using lasers to reball BGAs and do some PCB repair after desolder/part removal.

 

[patsu]

Yeah, the protected game saves are "activated" by the game developers, probably to prevent cheating. In this case, I guess the Demon's Souls developer wants to maintain a consistent experience throughout the network (Don't want to cheapen/trivialize the experience).

Even if they want to prevent cheating, I think Sony should allow me to copy any game saves. But at the receiving end, prevent them from working if the use is not authorized. Preventing me from copying at the beginning will prevent me from backing up protected save data game-by-game. Regular save data is ok. I can copy them out individually.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Precision laser welding?

It may have been IR or something. I don't recall the specifics. Only that the Sony system used expensive, more accurate and effective high-end gear and cost little more than the independents, yet Sony were being framed as rip-off merchants.

Found the Sony rebuttal at GI.biz. It's IR. Couple of choice excerpts...

[Report author] does not indicate the basis on which he considered that voiding at the levels seen – which, by his own admission, in no case exceeded 25 per cent sphere mass – were higher than he expected. In fact, assuming [Report author] is applying IPC standard A-610D (Acceptability of Electronic Assemblies, February 2005), that standard makes clear that “25% or less voiding in a ball x-ray image area” means that the product in question meets the relevant criterion for compliance. Although we have not been given the opportunity to confirm these results, [Report author's] findings appear to show the voiding levels in the consoles he examined to be below industry-accepted levels.

10. Once the warranty period has elapsed, the customer will be charged £128 (inclusive of VAT). This figure reflects the cost of repairing a PS3 to the high standard required and includes a door-to-door courier exchange service and other general administrative costs. SCEUK does not profit from this service; in fact, it operates it at a loss in order to offer customers with OOW PS3s the best price possible.

11. Sony has invested substantially in creating state-of-the-art diagnostic and servicing facilities to support both in-warranty and OOW repairs. As regards the purported solution to the supposed “yellow light” issue adopted by commercial repairers, effecting a reflow correctly, to the required engineering standards and in a properly controlled static-safe environment requires the use of an infra-red BGA soldering station, which must be set up and programmed to run at very specific temperature profiles. Each such station costs tens of thousands of pounds. The diagnostic equipment required to test that the solder has been performed correctly costs a similar amount.

 

[Nesh]

So here is what happened so far. Instead of sending it to Sony (who I was told would send me a refurbished back 2-3 weeks later), I found an independent repair shop that many small retailers send their customers' faulty PS3;s for repair. Thank God my friend knew the guy and told me about him

He said that tomorrow will be ready but if I want to, I can leave the console to him for 2 days to ensure everything runs ok. I ll get it Saturday morning.

He was going to charge me 120 Euros but since he knew my friend he will charge me 100 Euros,

I just saved 70 euros and he will give me my own console back with a 90 day warranty and hopefully it wont die on me again


P.s I purchased a slim as well to be safe

 

[novcze]

That's not realistic. Various types of BGAs are the vastly most common type of IC package today, they're used pretty much everywhere in computers today, and replacing every soldered BGA with a socket would vastly complicate things...

I didn`t speak about BGA package in general, just about CPU/GPU in PS3, these two parts are reaching high running temperature really quick and as result of the thermal dilatation we see YLOD. And with lead free reflow soldering are things worse than ever.
First thing that come to mind when you try avoid these problems is socket, something that can add (minimal) flexibility between PCB and package (you have to change package of the CPU/GPU though). And yes, that`s probably unrealistic solution.

 

[assurdum]

2 60 gb ps3 broken; the 60 gb really suck. Fortunately the ps3 slim is out just in time for the second broken, but this generations is a shame.

 

[upnorthsox]

No idea, I just know that it is and there are more than a few games unfortunately that do lock. I don't think copying WipEout HD save-files to other systems work either. I tried that and the data is gone - although I didn't spend as much time as getting that one to work as I did with Soul Calibur 4.

The decision to do these things may be down to the developer, but ultimately, it should be Sony to set up rules about how certain things are done and guarantee a consistent experience throughout.

I see why some devs do it, although in most cases, I just think it's short sighted and ignores some of the issues. For instance: How can a legimate consumer copy his save file to new PS3? Even if this now works in some cases, what if he also decides to change his online PSN-id?

This is actually the reason why I haven't yet bought a slim for myself yet. Besides the missing B/C feature, I just don't want to go through the hassle of losing some of my game-saves.

Wipeout HD copies over. One that I know that doesn't is Eye of Judgment.

Btw, one thing with Wipeout HD is that all your collected vehicles are individual files in the game data folder, it's a PIA when you've got 40 or so and have to copy them all.

 

[Grall]

We want (1)reliable and (2)powerful consoles, and they should be (3)inexpensive.

Well, two out of three we can have. Just pick which ones you'd like... (2) and (3) and you get Xbox 360, and all the RROD returns showed us how well that worked out... (1) and (3), and you end up with a Wii.

 

[Gubbi]

We want (1)reliable and (2)powerful consoles, and they should be (3)inexpensive.

Well, two out of three we can have. Just pick which ones you'd like... (2) and (3) and you get Xbox 360, and all the RROD returns showed us how well that worked out... (1) and (3), and you end up with a Wii.

1 & 2. The cost of the hardware drowns in the noise after 6 years of game purchases.

Cheers

 

[russo121]

My PS3 broke about end of August - send it to sony - received 6 weeks later a refurbished one - the refurbished has broken yesterday - send it to sony again.
I've talked with the guy of SEUR (transportation in Europe) and he told me that he has a lot of service with broken ps3.

I don't believe the beloved 10% failure rate somebody come up to. It's much higher - from my own experience.

 

[Nesh]

I think the failure rate was very low initially. But after a couple of years the old models started to wear off and brake. Around 2 years they start to show the signs of failure.