PS3 game sizes

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And/or wanted HD movie playback as part of their vision for the PlayStation concept.

I think the "or" is the main reason here. I think that the extra capacity for games is just a free bonus that came with the HD-movie drive. I believe it was you Shifty who made the point a while back that, if Blu-ray didn't exist, then Sony would have a large role in HD DVD camp. I agree with this 100%. To me it's absurd to even think about a situation where Sony is not heavily involved in new media standards given their track record and the line of business.
 
Thus the idea that BRD was included in PS3 just to promote the format can't be proven by any argument (and shouldn't be stated as fact). It's only personal opinion. If there were no other reasons for an HD drive, I could agree that it's only there for BluRay promotion. As it is, furthering BluRay movies is one benefit of several that contribute to the full feature-set of the PlayStation 3.

Well that's my point really. Sony are bringing a high-tech game playing device to the market which is expected to be on the market for a long period of time (based on the previous Playstation devices, we are think about 5-10 years). Now you start thinking about what features you are going to support over what period of time, and make an estimation of what kinds of costs you are going to incur over that period of time, how they are going to scale over that period of time, and whether they add enough value to your system.

Now, the thing with games is that they drive technology. To expand the possibility of what games can bring to a consumer, the games manufacturor adds hardware. In the case of Nintendo, this may have been a touch screen and a wii-mote more than anything else this time, but it is still the key factor that drives progress in this area and has been for a long time. At some point, however, these 'game devices' reach a certain point where, for little extra effort, they can do more than just play games. Often the limit is just software - there is nothing in the hardware specifications of the Xbox 360 Premium that bars it from running Windows XP or Linux, for instance, but its manufacturor has chosen to market it solely as a games console.

Enter the Playstation 3. Nearly every part of its hardware design is a logical step upwards from the Playstation 2 specifications, including the BluRay drive with its 50GB capacity versus the 9GB that was available on the PS2's DVD drive. Already on the original Playstation, where the CD-drive was chosen, there was overlap between the CD-ROM disc for holding the game data, and the CD discs that were and are still used for Audio CDs. In the Japanese version, support for Video CD was also included, although this didn't happen in other regions as Video CD never really broke through all that well outside of Japan. For the PS2, the next logical step was DVD, but this time the DVD functionality overlapped more clearly with video standards that used the same disc format. In some regions such as the U.S., DVD had already broken through as the most important new video format when the PS2 came to market, and so Sony decided to offer support for DVD Video playback on day one.

All this time, however, it is important to remember that both the CD and DVD formats were primarily digital formats that allowed permanent storage of digital information, whether this was music, data, video or otherwise. The DVD name, 'Digital Versatile Disc', says it all, really.

BluRay is no different in both regards. First of all, it is a versatile disc format that can be used to store music, data, video (it's all data anyway), and its increase in capacity suits the natural progression of hardware capacity from the Playstation 2 to the Playstation 3. If you were to design your next gameconsole on autopilot, BluRay would make perfect sense and there are barely any alternatives on the market that have the right combination of capacity and hardware production scaling forecasts - i.e., since the BluRay format is likely to be used for video and data besides the targetted game distribution, the cost of BluRay player parts is likely to drop to very attractive prices soon enough, just as they did for CD and DVD player parts.

Considering that the additional cost of BluRay over a DVD drive really only seems to be $100 at this point in time (i.e. Sony can at least for now afford to bring out a 20GB PS3 for $100 more than the 20GB 360, and it doesn't look too likely that they will let the gap will increase), and prospects for the future look good (i.e. the cost of the BluRay player will come down faster than the costs of the DVD player).

This then is the starting point of the discussion of whether or not BluRay brings something to the table for Sony. Since Sony is also a platform holder for Bluray as video distribution medium, and they can easily make the PS3 a viable BluRay player as well as a gamesconsole, the decision to go for BluRay becomes an absolute no-brainer for them. But it will be interesting to see whether the latest console generation will be the first generation in which game-sizes stabilise. Microsoft has gambled it won't, and that, in my view, is much more controversial and revolutionary a concept than including BluRay in the PS3 before the medium has established itself as the leading video distribution format.

And thus we have the crux of why I disagree so strongly with scooby. This post doesn't agree with anything you say either; I just felt the need to flesh out my opinion here. ;)

Of course, scooby may still end up being right. If a large enough percentage of games suffices with DVD and the advantage of having some games that support BluRay fully and make a better game for it doesn't outweigh the price difference, then - expressly disregarding the benefits for Sony of pushing the BluRay as video distribution format as well as any benefits for the consumer in this regard - the choice for DVD from the perspective of a games platform could have been the right one. Personally, though, I'm kind of hoping it won't be, and actually will partly blame Microsoft if it will. The reason that few games make good use of the extra capacity of BluRay may, after all, in the end be partly because multiplatform games become "360-limited" in that respect. ;)
 
And thus we have the crux of why I disagree so strongly with scooby. This post doesn't agree with anything you say either; I just felt the need to flesh out my opinion here. ;)

Of course, scooby may still end up being right. If a large enough percentage of games suffices with DVD and the advantage of having some games that support BluRay fully and make a better game for it doesn't outweigh the price difference, then - expressly disregarding the benefits for Sony of pushing the BluRay as video distribution format as well as any benefits for the consumer in this regard - the choice for DVD from the perspective of a games platform could have been the right one. Personally, though, I'm kind of hoping it won't be, and actually will partly blame Microsoft if it will. The reason that few games make good use of the extra capacity of BluRay may, after all, in the end be partly because multiplatform games become "360-limited" in that respect. ;)

I don't see where we disagree. I've always maintained that DVD was the correct decision for MS, and BR was the correct decision for Sony given the revenue they will likely generate from royalties.

I do believe that Sony is relinquishing marketshare in the consoel market by not going with DVD, but I don't necessarily think that's a mistake for the company as a whole. They may lose 10% or 15% of the console market to MS, but in return have ensured the success of their proprietary format. So it's a good strategy for the company.
 
Personally, though, I'm kind of hoping it won't be, and actually will partly blame Microsoft if it will. The reason that few games make good use of the extra capacity of BluRay may, after all, in the end be partly because multiplatform games become "360-limited" in that respect. ;)

Agreed. Such is the life of the console with extra features. See xbox last gen. (late console, standard HDD, advanced gpu)

Fastforward a gen and we see many devs using xbox360 as the lead dev platform dictating hdd-less design and dvd9 compatability.

Smart, and fortunately for MS, their dev tools and userbase encourage this "limitation" continuing.

Regardless of MS's design decisions with xb360 though, I don't think devs are itching to spend the dollars necessary to properly fill a BR disc with content.;)
 
Nfs 360 is half the size of nfs ps3.
Interesting.
Most of the multiplatform games take slightly less room than theirs ps3 counter part.

And I'm saying it again, 360 games will need at some point more than one disk

Some PS3 games have duplicated data to reduce loading times.

I don't think capacity is an issue, if they can't fit it on they just need to spend time compressing and manipulating data with the same resources.
 
Yeah, same goes for N64 cartridges. ;)

Lol not exactly that was definitely an issue. But they worked through it well, (Zelda being 16MB)

Procedure generated graphics can help reduce a few things.

GOW was just slightly over 6GB, i don't think many games on the X360 will suffer due to capacity.

Blueray is not so great for gaming. Im my opinion, i would have liked to see a 16X DVD drive on the PS3.
 
Nfs 360 is half the size of nfs ps3.
Interesting.
Most of the multiplatform games take slightly less room than theirs ps3 counter part.

And I'm saying it again, 360 games will need at some point more than one disk, but this is not a problem with linear games. And for games like Geow (and fps) devs could find some workarounds like a campaign disk and an online disk with map etc.

Anyway, it should be interesting to dee how this possible piracy issue evolve, piracy is a huge commercial argument (oxymoron I know lol) for casual gamers.

I'll tell you how it'll evolve. Some crazy open source ai researcher will have thrown out a radical new ai outhere, by now it should be sophisticated enough to begin rewriting the laws themselves. The law makers at washington panic, O no use the bomb use it, no use it already has celestial class shields. Use the wars use THAT WARS, no use it already has a loli armada*(perverted researcher new his game... ). Time to die, oops, it was time to live. A celestial all beautiful lain, awakens, and all is right with the world.

Everything is public domain, and people realize they only discovered stuff, they never actually created information... BECAUSE INFORMATION CANNOT BE CREATED NOR DESTROYED. Rediscoveries, as that is all that we've ever made, are all made public, perfect distribution of resources is achieved, and lain provides access to all possible information and eternal answers for eternal questions. Perfect democracy goes into place, every single dictator tastes the might of damocles sword... as the celestial queen begins her punishment. :devilish:

BTW, I had nothing to do with any of it, so I'm free of blame. If anything I only helped guide some along the way, or maybe I did nothing at all. In any case, when the time comes, I want my free lunch, this ain't zero sum, now or is it? Oh yes it is, he who does the least, gets the most :LOL:
 
I am not so sure about that, but time will tell.



Maybe that is the reason Sony included a HDD in every PS3 so you get the best of both worlds. :LOL:


Most games "ignoring ports" on the PS3 are about 6 -8GB. Ridge Racer 7 was less then 8GB.

There is really no struggle to fit games on the X360. I can imagine an RPG game using more then one disc but "most" games on the X360 don't touch 8GB or 8.5GB. Thats how i know there is no problem with 8.5GB.

The whole Hard Drive thing in consoles is BS to me.
If you ever need to install a game on a video game console then that video game console is going backwards in time.
 
Most games "ignoring ports" on the PS3 are about 6 -8GB. Ridge Racer 7 was less then 8GB.

There is really no struggle to fit games on the X360. I can imagine an RPG game using more then one disc but "most" games on the X360 don't touch 8GB or 8.5GB. Thats how i know there is no problem with 8.5GB.

Considering there are already Xbox 1 and PS2 games on the edge of a DVD9, and GoW aint the "longest" gaming experience out there i find it very naive to "know" there is no problem with DVD9 on Next Gen.
 
There is really no struggle to fit games on the X360. I can imagine an RPG game using more then one disc but "most" games on the X360 don't touch 8GB or 8.5GB. Thats how i know there is no problem with 8.5GB.

It would stand to reason that if your target is a medium with 8 GBs of capacity, then most games are going to push for, or below, that target. Most games during the PS1 era were around 1 disc, san RPGs and a few other games. During the PS2/XBox era, most of the games were around 4 - 5 GB, with a few filling up dual layer disc (and a few multi-disc as well). It doesn't make sense to target a capacity greater than the medium you're storing it on. In some cases, this is unavoidable, but I think its obvious that the industry has demonstrated quite clearly that they will use additional space, but, will also, generally, stay within the new capacity. Now, the question is, in previous generations when there has been a large gap in capacity between platforms, what were the results to the end user? This is a multifaceted issue that will be hard to separate from other underlying problems (such as hardware, licensing cost, 3rd party relationships etc). We have an example in each of the 2 previous generations. The Playstation 2 and X Box both used DVD, while the GC used a mini-DVD disc. The Playstation 1 used CDs while the N64 used cartridges with a much smaller capacity. What we have is a similar situation now. The Playstation 3 is using BDs while the 360 is using DVDs. What can we extrapolate, if anything, from past experiences in terms of game quality, 3rd party support etc given the storage size discrepancy?
 
This is starting to sound like a vs thread.

Game sizes get larger as time moves on, it's a fact. Otherwise why not just use CDs like early PS2?

First gen 360 games are 3GB-8GB, will that be true in 2009? How much trimming will they do or how many DVDs will they span?

Standard HDs were good for the Xbox1, but they are not for the PS3? Got it... :cry:

I prefer a BD drive of DVD9 purely on the noise factor, but that's just me.
 
Most games "ignoring ports" on the PS3 are about 6 -8GB. Ridge Racer 7 was less then 8GB.

There is really no struggle to fit games on the X360. I can imagine an RPG game using more then one disc but "most" games on the X360 don't touch 8GB or 8.5GB. Thats how i know there is no problem with 8.5GB.

I am sure there has been manya threads regarding the potential problem for MS sticking with DVD9 on the X360, and I am not going to cover old grounds, beside what I stated in my previous post "time will tell"... or until a multi-platform dev/publisher (e.g. EA) comes out and categorically states DVD9 on the X360 is holding them back from realising their dream game, thus made PS3 their primary platform for this reason (I think there have been some devs stating something similar along these lines or have had to cut back due to the media, but some will still deny it or accuse the dev in question of being incapable of making decent game on DVD/X360).

The whole Hard Drive thing in consoles is BS to me.
If you ever need to install a game on a video game console then that video game console is going backwards in time.

Who said it requires game installation on the HDD, devs can still utilise the HDD to speed things up and reduce load time, thus improving gaming experience ( a la Oblivion).
 
Game sizes get larger as time moves on, it's a fact. Otherwise why not just use CDs like early PS2?

Agreed in principal. But there are technologies that both ps3 and xb360 can use which enable data growth (increased detail) without requiring an overall size increase. Procedural generation and compression.

First gen 360 games are 3GB-8GB, will that be true in 2009? How much trimming will they do or how many DVDs will they span?

Nobody knows for sure but I predict 90% of the games on xb360 will fit on one dvd while providing a near indistinguishable experience to the ps3 counterparts. Even through 2009.

Standard HDs were good for the Xbox1, but they are not for the PS3? Got it... :cry:

Actually standard hdd was not a good thing for xbox1. It drove the BOM of the console up and not many games took advantage of it. Standard HDD is one of the reasons xbox1 was killed off quickly.

I prefer a BD drive of DVD9 purely on the noise factor, but that's just me.

Agreed. The drive allows for significantly quieter operation. I've yet to hear the new "quiet drive" in xb360 so I'll reserve judgement for someone else who has but I'd venture to say the BR drive would still be quieter.
 
The day we switch from DVDs to Blu-ray disks is not the day we can't make games on DVDs, it's day it becomes economically impractical to make games on DVDs. Many of the games that are "doable" on a DVD will probably take up 20GB+ anyways just because it's easier to do it that way.
 
Agreed. The drive allows for significantly quieter operation. I've yet to hear the new "quiet drive" in xb360 so I'll reserve judgement for someone else who has but I'd venture to say the BR drive would still be quieter.

Ironically, the tracking mechanism for the BD laser seems notably loader than it is for the 360, which can be detracting during load heavy, streaming games (assuming its a quiet moment). Either that, or its just more obvious on the PS3 because the rest of it is quieter, or the tracking sound on the 360 is overpowered by the noise from the drive spinning the disc.
 
It would stand to reason that if your target is a medium with 8 GBs of capacity, then most games are going to push for, or below, that target. Most games during the PS1 era were around 1 disc, san RPGs and a few other games. During the PS2/XBox era, most of the games were around 4 - 5 GB, with a few filling up dual layer disc (and a few multi-disc as well). It doesn't make sense to target a capacity greater than the medium you're storing it on. In some cases, this is unavoidable, but I think its obvious that the industry has demonstrated quite clearly that they will use additional space, but, will also, generally, stay within the new capacity. Now, the question is, in previous generations when there has been a large gap in capacity between platforms, what were the results to the end user? This is a multifaceted issue that will be hard to separate from other underlying problems (such as hardware, licensing cost, 3rd party relationships etc). We have an example in each of the 2 previous generations. The Playstation 2 and X Box both used DVD, while the GC used a mini-DVD disc. The Playstation 1 used CDs while the N64 used cartridges with a much smaller capacity. What we have is a similar situation now. The Playstation 3 is using BDs while the 360 is using DVDs. What can we extrapolate, if anything, from past experiences in terms of game quality, 3rd party support etc given the storage size discrepancy?

Good post

There is another issue that needs to be addressed as well when comparing this gen to previous gens and the impact of available media size on games quality and selection

Userbase.

If people bought GC in droves last gen and within a year or two it became the dominant platform, would one assume 3rd party devs would avoid the system as it had limited storage space? Same for n64.

If ps3 takes off like a rocket after their EU launch and goes on to outsell the competition by a significant margin in a couple of years I'd assume we would see many games (if not most) that need and use BR. Support from 3rd party devs for xb360 & Wii would reflect this I imagine.

If anything I'd say: userbase -> features used

If your console is not leading significantly enough to dictate full utilization of features available then those features will likely go untapped. (see: xbox HDD, gpu)

In short whatever console goes on to lead this gen, I imagine will set the standard for what features will be fully utilized and designed around. If none demonstrate a clear userbase lead, then I expect generally even support regardless of media/feature limitations.
 
The Playstation 2 and X Box both used DVD, while the GC used a mini-DVD disc. The Playstation 1 used CDs while the N64 used cartridges with a much smaller capacity. What we have is a similar situation now. The Playstation 3 is using BDs while the 360 is using DVDs. What can we extrapolate, if anything, from past experiences in terms of game quality, 3rd party support etc given the storage size discrepancy?

The situation is about what is necessary for the limited hardware we have. The N64 was a powerful machine the hardware needed at least 250MB of game space to make good use of it. So we never got to see what it had to offer.

The PS1 had more then enough space i would go as far as saying too much space and no enough speed. I think the whole capacity over speed issue in the game industry is a bad habit. Most of the early PSX games were full of FMV's and junk.

I don't think we are in the same boat as the N64. The N64 games had over 50X less data when compared to the PSX. 8.5GB is not small im glad there is a limit because developers can say "Ok lets remove all the crap and keep what's good" and usually, not all the 8.5GB is good. (More is not always necessary)


(e.g. EA) comes out and categorically states DVD9 on the X360 is holding them back from realising their dream game, thus made PS3 their primary platform for this reason (I think there have been some devs stating something similar along these lines or have had to cut back due to the media, but some will still deny it or accuse the dev in question of being incapable of making decent game on DVD/X360).

Who said it requires game installation on the HDD, devs can still utilise the HDD to speed things up and reduce load time, thus improving gaming experience ( a la Oblivion).

Hmm i didn't see rare complain, they were going to drop 2 characters from the SNES verison of Killer Instinct but they used some type of compression (Software or chip) and they kept all the characters the game was great.

You can make any game "almost" any size.

KKrieger

This game has been estimated at 200MB - 300MB, but it is only 97KB. (Not a typo).

I know it only has one level and it took 2 years. Though being realistic, using typical techniques and procedure generated techniques a game of lets say 18GB can probably be squeezed into 8.5GB in reasonable time.

I just don't see what they want to do with 25Gb what they can't do with 8.5.

Sometimes i look at the PC games i have and think. "Where is the 5GB of space? what did they use it on?" and most of it is silly movie intro's, and texture and mesh which are almost identical but not reused or a modified.

I don't think HDrive is needed in consoles. But if Sony was using the HDrive to speed games up, they should have put 2x 20GB SATA 2 hard dirves. But lets not go into that.
 
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