Progressive scan @ 30FPS?
- Thread starter MistaPi
- Start date
Right just to say that since i actually work in 2d animation for 10 year i might be able to shed some light on the issue.
In western animation 2d anaimtion stuf used to be shot at 24 fps when shot on film. However iduring periods of little motion i.e. a character speaking to another there will only be 12 drawing per second as each one is shot twice. When the character starts to move within the frame the drawings per second increase to make the motion fluid. This is what we refer to as singles or one drawing per frame. In other periods the same darwing maybe held for many frames and only need drawing when motion starts up again.
The situation changes when animation is combined with live action as in the case of films such as 'Roger Rabbit' In suc cases genrerally more darwing will be need or else the character will slip on the 25 fps live action. This is not always the case, if you have a locked down shot i.e. a still live action camera less drawing can be used and then perhaps single would only be used when the animation character interacts with live action characters or background elements (chairs etc.).
One thing to say is that basiclly 24 fps in the minimum to get smooth action in any form of video/film situation, its just that in animation you can cheat during certain periods and use 12 drawings per second.
Japanese/Asian animation is unique in they they generally use less drawing than western animators. Typically they use 3's or each drawing being shot for 3 frames, however they also constantly vary the rate depending on what is needed in the shot. As a general rule though they use less frame per second that western animation and this is one of the things that in rarely understood but has a large inpact on the 'feel' of anime.
Phil
In western animation 2d anaimtion stuf used to be shot at 24 fps when shot on film. However iduring periods of little motion i.e. a character speaking to another there will only be 12 drawing per second as each one is shot twice. When the character starts to move within the frame the drawings per second increase to make the motion fluid. This is what we refer to as singles or one drawing per frame. In other periods the same darwing maybe held for many frames and only need drawing when motion starts up again.
The situation changes when animation is combined with live action as in the case of films such as 'Roger Rabbit' In suc cases genrerally more darwing will be need or else the character will slip on the 25 fps live action. This is not always the case, if you have a locked down shot i.e. a still live action camera less drawing can be used and then perhaps single would only be used when the animation character interacts with live action characters or background elements (chairs etc.).
One thing to say is that basiclly 24 fps in the minimum to get smooth action in any form of video/film situation, its just that in animation you can cheat during certain periods and use 12 drawings per second.
Japanese/Asian animation is unique in they they generally use less drawing than western animators. Typically they use 3's or each drawing being shot for 3 frames, however they also constantly vary the rate depending on what is needed in the shot. As a general rule though they use less frame per second that western animation and this is one of the things that in rarely understood but has a large inpact on the 'feel' of anime.
Phil
Fox 5 you are correct in thinking that motion blur is often crawn into the characters. You get some hilariously indididual frame sometimes to paint which have the same arm drawn 3 times or indeed 4 times thicker than normal, effectively showing the arc the movement is in.
In general however this in only done by truely talented animator, most dont include these type of features.
Phil
In general however this in only done by truely talented animator, most dont include these type of features.
Phil
MistaPi said:
I don't recall any smooth animation prior to 1984. I don't recall very much smooth animation since either.
And thanks to my 4 year old kid, I have a rather expansive collection of animation, especially classic Disney, so I do have quite a bit of recent experience with the subject.
BTW, if you have any questions as to how many frames per second are used on film you could always do a frame by frame count using a DVD.
Oftren the main issue is not wether you have motion blur or not applied or drawn into the characters but wether the animation is being drawn on singles or doubles. If on doubles (i.e. 12 fps) it never looks that smooth, the main reason to do this is budget, doing a whole mmovies on singles in and unbeliable undertaking in terms of man hours. Generally feature films and children animated series have lower drawing per second than tv commercials and pop promos since the budgets in the later are much high per second.
JacksBleedingEyes
Regular
Here is the lowdown.
Film is definetly shot on 24 frames per second.
High budged Disney films are all 24 frames per second.
Most typical anime is done at 15 frames per second.
And all the other crappy animation, is just that, crappy.
Film is definetly shot on 24 frames per second.
High budged Disney films are all 24 frames per second.
Most typical anime is done at 15 frames per second.
And all the other crappy animation, is just that, crappy.
london-boy said:
That's a tipical amatorial misconception, it have not to do with frame rate but with shooting progressive.
Shooting 24/25 progressive frame give the tipical film motion cadence, but it also give a strobe effect if the operator don't pan carefully.
Shooting interlaced at 25fps (50i) give you no strobe or jittering but it make the video look amatorial.
You will not see 60fps movies in the future because despite the additional cost in term of sfx it would lose the tipical film motion cadence making the film look more amatorialish.
Also, film camera all shoot at 24fps and are projected at 24fps, some european director shoot at 25fps for television movies.
Bye,
Ventresca.
Blazkowicz
Legend
but you could double the framerate and keep it progressive film.
or even, you can shoot progressive video, no? (isn't what movies shot in digital are)
who cares after that if some people think it's not the right thing to do, they can still shoot at 24fps. 48 or 60fps would be great for some martial arts, racing, giant battle and so on. Or, for the sole purpose of making the image look life-like! I saw 60fps cinema a decade ago, that was greatly immersive. and not looking like television.
or even, you can shoot progressive video, no? (isn't what movies shot in digital are)
who cares after that if some people think it's not the right thing to do, they can still shoot at 24fps. 48 or 60fps would be great for some martial arts, racing, giant battle and so on. Or, for the sole purpose of making the image look life-like! I saw 60fps cinema a decade ago, that was greatly immersive. and not looking like television.
Blazkowicz_ said:
We use to shoot at 60fps but only for sfx work , and i can tell you that you lose the tipical film motion cadence at this frame rate, IMO.
It is only up to what are you looking for , the same shoot could look "fake" if shooted at 60fps and "real" if shooted at 24p.
WRT motion blur in classic animation, as already mentioned; it has been used for decades, way back to the classic Disney and WB shorts.
Differentiation between MB and "motion enhancing deformation" should be made though. When a characters limbs are stretched and or widened/enlarged as a result of quick motion (like Daffy is often drawn or Mario kicking and punching in M64) is something else entirely than motion blur.
Differentiation between MB and "motion enhancing deformation" should be made though. When a characters limbs are stretched and or widened/enlarged as a result of quick motion (like Daffy is often drawn or Mario kicking and punching in M64) is something else entirely than motion blur.
"Good enough" MB like in SotC or PGR 3 (even though it still doesn't mask the 30fps) actually isn't that hard to do. It just requires a bit of fillrate and transform time.london-boy said:
But Japanese animators generally put a lot more detail into their characters and objects. Also they tend to not "overuse" squash and stretch as much as their western colleagues.lefizz said:
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