Post-XMAS HD DVD Sales Surge: #8 ranked HD DVD surpasses #1 Blu-Ray in sales

[ihamoitc2005]

Inferior Technology

Actually the lead is still there. Most of the BR PQ improvements came from the 50GB discs which there are very few. Most of the 25GB releases are still inferior to the 30GB HD DVDs PS3 and Samsung firmware update or not.

Sound and vision mag says best next gen disc performance is PS3 and worst is Toshiba HD-DVD player.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/1927/shootout-3-blu-ray-disc-players.html

Poor performance of old Blu-Ray movies is because of bad disc transfer (encoding), less capacity (old single layer disc) and bad player (original Samsung). Those movies will still be bad on any player because of bad encoding and single layer capacity.

Ditto, I was just making the point that going with specs does not guarantee which one will be better because the specs are constantly changing at least on the HD DVD side. If HD DVD does indeed get the 51GB to market then there is no capacity advantage of 50GB BDs.

I'm sorry I must disagree on this my friend, but extra layers is more difficult for HD-DVD than Blu-Ray because of inferior DVD type contruction. 51GB HD-DVD is just marketing to make people think HD-DVD can have more capacity than Blu-Ray. For 51GB, HD-DVD must have more layers and also more data/layer. Not so easy. Also, will triple layer disc work on current HD-DVD player or will people with Microsoft and Toshiba player have to buy new player? Too many questions for 51GB claim.

I am curious on this subject, why you have more preference for inferior HD-DVD techology. I do not ask to offend only for curiousness.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

First of all, I don't think there's any inherent reason for Blu-Ray standalone players to cost $1000. The CE companies are just milking it because the buyers right now are videophiles that are only slightly price sensitive. In other words, additional sales of a $500 player wouldn't outweigh the $500 less profit. Once consumers start wanting lower prices and CE competition kicks in, the prices will drop fast.

What I have heard (I have no proof) is that Toshiba sells HD-DVD for loss (like Sony sells PS3 for same reason) but all standalone Blu-Ray players have profit. Toshiba HD-DVD player and Samsung Blu-Ray have very similar parts, no reason for one to have lower price unless Toshiba has business cause.

Business theory is Blu-Ray players are correct market price for next gen disc players, Toshiba price is low to get marketshare so that Toshiba can make money with HD-DVD sales.

 

[Dave Baumann]

You might want to check that is still relevant. Initial HD DVD players were nothing less than Intel based PC's running Linux. Dedicated hardware will mitigate the losses - although I don't know what their newer ones are based on, the inclusion of the Silicon Optix processor on the new high end player suggests to me that they may be dedicated solutions now.

 

[Sxotty]

What I have heard (I have no proof) is that Toshiba sells HD-DVD for loss (like Sony sells PS3 for same reason) but all standalone Blu-Ray players have profit. Toshiba HD-DVD player and Samsung Blu-Ray have very similar parts, no reason for one to have lower price unless Toshiba has business cause.

Business theory is Blu-Ray players are correct market price for next gen disc players, Toshiba price is low to get marketshare so that Toshiba can make money with HD-DVD sales.

I think you are wrong. Look at toshiba's profit versus sony's profit last quarter.

 

[Bobbler]

I think you are wrong. Look at toshiba's profit versus sony's profit last quarter.

That's wholly irrelevant... HD DVD and BR sales are drops in the bucket compared to the entirety of Sony or Toshiba's other spending/revenue.

Toshiba could have sold all of those HD DVD players at a loss and you wouldn't have necessarily been able to tell in their financial reports, even if Toshiba posted a loss for the quarter. As far as I know, there wasn't any section in their financial docs that listed HD DVD hardware revenue/profit.

I'm not saying he's right, as I don't know if they did or not (looking at some of the A1 deals, though, it wouldn't be surprising) -- it was merely rumored, based on an iSuppli report. It doesn't look like the A2s are made using the same chips (likely dedicated and a cheaper design, as Dave mentioned), so it would have just been the A1s, I'm guessing. If the A2s are a loss too, then I don't imagine it'd be very much at all.

 

[Capeta]

Sound and vision mag says best next gen disc performance is PS3 and worst is Toshiba HD-DVD player.

Huh? The only thing I found in that review was this:

The only thing that rubbed me wrong was the PS3's fan noise, which made it much louder than any other gear in my system, including a DVR and Sony front projector. It was even noisier than my Toshiba HD DVD player, and that thing is LOUD!

There's zero mention of Toshiba's HD DVD performance. In fact they mentioned how the SONY TV used in the test couldn't deinterlace the Toshiba's 1080i output without adding jaggies.

Poor performance of old Blu-Ray movies is because of bad disc transfer (encoding), less capacity (old single layer disc) and bad player (original Samsung). Those movies will still be bad on any player because of bad encoding and single layer capacity.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

I'm sorry I must disagree on this my friend, but extra layers is more difficult for HD-DVD than Blu-Ray because of inferior DVD type contruction. 51GB HD-DVD is just marketing to make people think HD-DVD can have more capacity than Blu-Ray. For 51GB, HD-DVD must have more layers and also more data/layer. Not so easy. Also, will triple layer disc work on current HD-DVD player or will people with Microsoft and Toshiba player have to buy new player? Too many questions for 51GB claim.

Well Toshiba is trying to get the DVD Forum to get it into the HD DVD specs by end of 2007 so we'll see. I doubt it's science fiction or "marketing".

I am curious on this subject, why you have more preference for inferior HD-DVD techology. I do not ask to offend only for curiousness.

I don't have a preference for inferior technology. I have a preference for cheap standalone players and high quality HD movies. By the end of 2007 we'll likely see HD DVD players with a street price of $300. I don't see that happening for Blu-ray anytime soon.

As far as the BOM for Toshiba's 1st generation player goes, do some research on your own. It doesn't take a genious to figure out that Toshiba wasn't losing any money on those considering it was a cheap PC with a HD DVD drive but no HDD.

 

[avaya]

This whole war annoys me so much.

The chief instigators of the war are the chief DVD engineer at Toshiba who let his precious ego get in the way of a comprise of a unified format back in May 2005, the executive branch of Universal Studios Home Entertainment who seem to have some sort of personal vendetta against Sony Corporation of America and finally whoever the hell it was in the BDA that voted against the adoption of iHD (HDi…iHD sounds better!) alongside Java – that caused Microsoft to go into spoiler mode.

On that last point, if Microsoft we’re still HD-DVD exclusive even if HDi was also adopted by Blu-Ray then their reasons for being would be totally transparent – not that they aren’t now. That’s not an attack against Microsoft, they are just looking out for their business – which is exactly what you’d expect of any company.

I don’t understand HD-DVD supporters at all. Never have. Almost the entire CE industry wants Blu-Ray, almost all movie studios support Blu-Ray, it is superior technology/standard (space, bandwidth) and Blu-Ray offers the only chance for a truly unified movie and back-up format (it is not even a contest in this respect).

Why would you support HD-DVD? Only reason I see is DRM, but even that is a flaky reason. Those cheap HD-DVD standalones only exist due to the weight PS3 brings to the table in addition to the industry-wide CE support behind Blu-Ray. Pricing decisions are not made in an information-vacuum.

The PQ/AQ angle is also rather funny IMO, inter-studio competition and improvement in tools coupled with greater storage and bandwidth available should have been enough for most people to realise that Blu-Ray would have equal if not better PQ/AQ than HD-DVD. The fact they were so lazy(read arrogant) at the beginning mixed in with Microsoft being so gung-ho about promoting their codec lead to the popular myth that HD-DVD looks “better”. That’s just an execution and PR failure on the part of the Blu-Ray side.

Toshiba had no choice but to sacrifice margins with their first generation players. It is extremely odd for a company like Samsung not to be format neutral; they said they would make no money making a first-gen HD-DVD player. This is why I believe it’s rather obvious that the cheapest first-gen players from Toshiba were either sold at near cost or a slight loss. Nothing to be ashamed about, it was the only strategy they had. They would have been dead in the water had they gone the normal route of reaping a healthy margin on the product.

The Chinese player angle also seems to actively torpedo any interest major CE’s had in wanting to make HD-DVD players. What’s the point in doing so if the product is virtually commoditised? Who knows, maybe some of these guys will bite.

Anyway, back on topic after my diatribe. It will be interesting to see if Blu-Ray can keep up the pace, but overall sales are really poor for both formats. I think it is really obvious that the war is seriously hurting HD optical adoption. I will be interested to see what happens in Europe after the PS3 launch, player sales here are still in the very very low numbers. Blu-Ray could potentially leap over HD-DVD since inception figures for the region in the PS3’s first week (if Sony gets enough supply here and it sells).

 

[Capeta]

Wow all that superfluous posting and you still don't get it. I could buy a HD DVD player for less than $400 today and watch great HD DVD movies on my HDTV. It even upconverts DVD and upsamples CD audio. I could buy a HD DVD drive for less than $200 with a copy of King Kong that works on a PC or a X360. What's so complicated about that? Even J6P could figure this out. It's not exactly rocket science.

It's kinda ironic that despite "all the CE support" behind BR, it's HD DVD that has given consumers more buying options. Toshiba alone has already released their 2nd gen players and they have 3 of them, an entry level, mid level, and highend. They even have a highend HD DVD recorder with 1 Terabyte of hardrive space. With Onkyo onboard it just gets better from there.

 

[quest55720]

I don't care about technology or disk space it is the first one to get a good stand alone player under 250 dollars gets my money. I need to buy 3 players to replace each dvd player in the house. If I go hd media it will have to play on each tv in the house. It is just like when I bought dvd players when they got under 250 each I bought 2 and did not look back.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

JB Hi-Fi to Stock Blu-ray Only

Aussie retailer backs Sony's format of choice.
by Patrick Kolan, IGN AU

Australia, February 13, 2007 - In a sign that HD DVD might well be dead on arrival when it is released in Australia within the next couple of months, major Australian entertainment retailer, JB Hi-Fi has commented that they will only be stocking Blu-ray format HD movies and entertainment.

According to iTWire, the company has backed the PS3's format of choice, simply due to the number of film companies who have committed to the format.

"Blu-ray is the only format that has the ability to tell the whole story, with the most comprehensive offering on the market. With seven of Hollywood's leading studios accounting for the vast majority of 2006's home video sales, among the 170 plus companies globally that support Blu-ray Disc, it makes sense that content will be king when it comes to Blu-ray," commented JB Hi-Fi Marketing Director Scott Browning.

We are curious as to whether this will affect their decision to sell the Xbox 360's HD DVD drive add-on, which is scheduled to be released in Australia in late March. We are currently seeking comment from the company, so check back soon for any developments.

Link

 

[Capeta]

Why would any retailer make such a dumb decision? I guess the people who want to buy HD DVD will just go to another retailer. Their loss.

 

[pcchen]

This whole war annoys me so much.

It can also be argued that there's no point for Sony to create a competing standard at first place, by your logic.

 

[avaya]

It can also be argued that there's no point for Sony to create a competing standard at first place, by your logic.

Blu-Ray existed before HD-DVD.

 

[Capeta]

Blu-Ray existed before HD-DVD.

Not the movie format it didn't..

 

[avaya]

There is no rule that says movies belong on "DVD". It was simply the second optical format to carry movies.

The CE majors picked Blu-Ray as there format of choice for data and movies back in 2002 (Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric, Pioneer, Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson).

HD-DVD was approved in November 2003 by the HD-DVD forum, after fiddling about with the voting procedures.

This is all further semantics. HD-DVD is simply an attempted extension of the DVD format by Toshiba and Warner to prolong their royalty revenue streams. Other CE companies did not have any preference for DVD, they begrudgingly accepted it, they had put their eggs in the Blu-Ray basket long before.

Currently three companies are going against the vast majority of their peers. People talk about Sony being belligerent in creating opposing formats, standing against the industry’s accepted standards, which is true. Well in the case of next-gen optical who are the ones doing that?

Bill Hunt's latest editorial on TDB says all that needs to be said. HD-DVD simply needs to put up the white flag or we get shitty downloads…unless you want shitty downloads, I certainly don't.

 

[Capeta]

There is no rule that says movies belong on "DVD". It was simply the second optical format to carry movies.

Nobody said there was.

The CE majors picked Blu-Ray as there format of choice for data and movies back in 2002 (Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric, Pioneer, Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson).

And Thomson and LG also support HD DVD now, who would've thought?

HD-DVD was approved in November 2003 by the HD-DVD forum, after fiddling about with the voting procedures.

Yeah because the BD founders tried to stifle voting, stalling for time so they could get their BD movie format up to speed. Later they copied HD DVD by adopting the same codecs. The BD recording format was available for years before the BD movie format, yet those recorders can't even play back prerecorded BD movies.

Other CE companies did not have any preference for DVD, they begrudgingly accepted it, they had put their eggs in the Blu-Ray basket long before.

Of course, that's why the BD founders attempted to stifle HD DVD adoption and failed. They didn't even try to submit the BD format to the Forum yet they whine like little girls when HD DVD was approved as the DVD Forum's next format.

Currently three companies are going against the vast majority of their peers. People talk about Sony being belligerent in creating opposing formats, standing against the industry’s accepted standards, which is true. Well in the case of next-gen optical who are the ones doing that?

HD DVD movie format was finalize first. If the BDA was so confident with their format they should've submitted it for DVD Forum approval. They didn't so they forfeited their chance so now there is two formats. The BDA chose to initiate this format war, trying to distort reality isn't going to change the facts.

 

[avaya]

First of all, I want to make sure this doesn’t get personal. It’s just (yet another) continuation of the never-ending debate on the saga that is this format war ;-)

For that and many other reasons this will be my last post on this subject in this thread.

Nobody said there was.

So we agree. So why say this?

They didn't even try to submit the BD format to the Forum

That doesn’t make sense. Blu-Ray is not DVD. Why would they submit it to the DVD Forum? There is still some latent belief in some that the next video format must get approval from the DVD forum. This is not true at all. The DVD-Forum is there only to regulate and propagate the existence of the DVD format.

This was the whole reason behind the creation of the BDA.

And Thomson and LG also support HD DVD now, who would've thought?

I knew you would pick up on this even as I wrote my initial post. Both have always supported HD-DVD. LG's support is highly questionable, given that their player is simply a Blu-Ray player with the added feature of HD-DVD playback.

Yeah because the BD founders tried to stifle voting, stalling for time so they could get their BD movie format up to speed. Later they copied HD DVD by adopting the same codecs. The BD recording format was available for years before the BD movie format, yet those recorders can't even play back pre-recorded BD movies.

Please correct me if I am wrong but didn’t most of the BDA simply abstain from the voting procedure? Second, I’m not going to even argue the codec/copying issue because it is a ridiculous point. Third, I’m pretty confident that you are not being entirely truthful with your last sentence (or you’re second FWIW). Several posters from/in Japan on AVS confirmed that some (not all) recorders play back the BD standard.

The BDA chose to initiate this format war, trying to distort reality isn't going to change the facts.

Each time I hear this it makes me chuckle. The only people who started the war are the three holdouts. It is a popularity contest. They should have ceded when they realised they simply did not have the support. HD-DVD never should have launched, they knew full well what they were going up against.

They needed miracles from the very beginning. Sony-Philips ceded (MMCD) when they realised Toshiba’s SD format was the one with the wider industry backing. This time there was no IBM to intermediate. The three holdouts in this war did the belligerent thing. They should have compromised; the other side was more than willing to. It's far easier for three to cede (well 2 really, the third one is just acting spoiler) than it is for the legions on the other side to give in. The other way around is irrational. Sorry if that sounds incredibly arrogant but it's just the truth.

 

[Bobbler]

HD DVD movie format was finalize first. If the BDA was so confident with their format they should've submitted it for DVD Forum approval. They didn't so they forfeited their chance so now there is two formats. The BDA chose to initiate this format war, trying to distort reality isn't going to change the facts.

I think there's a bit of revisionist history going on here, because I'm hearing this story a lot -- "It's Sony's fault!"

The history has been explained a few times on these forums and much of the fault lies with Toshiba, who decided to continue with their HD DVD format well after Blu-ray was accepted by most of the industry (and still has most of the industry support).

Whether or not DVD forum accepts something is completely irrelevant, last time I checked, they aren't the body that dictates whether any movie format is worthy or not. It seems there's a bit of false security applied to DVD forum's approval of HD DVD -- it doesn't mean anything in regards to industry wanting a given format. Toshiba wanted a continued piece of the royalty pie and so they created a format to do so... they did this in spite of a format that was already accepted by the industry. If anything, Toshiba caused this war, not Sony.

 

[SPM]

Nobody said there was.



And Thomson and LG also support HD DVD now, who would've thought?



Yeah because the BD founders tried to stifle voting, stalling for time so they could get their BD movie format up to speed. Later they copied HD DVD by adopting the same codecs. The BD recording format was available for years before the BD movie format, yet those recorders can't even play back prerecorded BD movies.



Of course, that's why the BD founders attempted to stifle HD DVD adoption and failed. They didn't even try to submit the BD format to the Forum yet they whine like little girls when HD DVD was approved as the DVD Forum's next format.



HD DVD movie format was finalize first. If the BDA was so confident with their format they should've submitted it for DVD Forum approval. They didn't so they forfeited their chance so now there is two formats. The BDA chose to initiate this format war, trying to distort reality isn't going to change the facts.

The HD format wars is all about specification patents - each side is pushing their format because they are salivating at the prospect of making big money out of format patents. A DVD player costs $26 to make. Licensing the patents for it costs another $26.

If specifications weren't patentable, then everyone would have agreed to a universal standard a long time ago. Of course the physical technology has to be patentable, because it requires a lot of R&D to come up with, but it is the other stuff - codecs, software specifications and software patents which should not be patentable that causes the problems. It they weren't patentable, then the other players who own patents used in one or both of the formats - Microsoft, the movie studios, other CE giants, in fact everyone except Sony and Toshiba would simply pick the one that looked best at the beginning rather than push their own vested interests as far as they can.

 

[Sxotty]

The HD format wars is all about specification patents - each side is pushing their format because they are salivating at the prospect of making big money out of format patents. A DVD player costs $26 to make. Licensing the patents for it costs another $26.

And this is why I hate both formats. Why can't they come up with an open format. Just have industry people form a working group to make it then they get to make money selling the players. I wonder though the DVD license must have decreased in price as time went on though right? Or does it since they have a monopoly?