Toshiba: BDA's victory claim "propaganda", sales figures "distorted" by BDA promos

[Ruined]

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertai...cts-blu-ray-victory-claim?articleid=943604279

Toshiba rejects Blu-ray victory claim
Moves to dispel anti-HD DVD 'propaganda'

Toshiba has rejected claims made yesterday at a Blu-ray press conference at CeBIT that its own HD DVD format is failing. Olivier Van Wynendaele, Deputy General manager of HD DVD at Toshiba Ltd said the claims were"propaganda" and then proceeded to dispute them point by point in a call to tech.co.uk

Last Thursday Blu-ray Disc Association chairman Frank Simonis said that Blu-ray discs were now out-selling HD DVDs by 3:1 in the US - a claim Van Wynendaele disputes.

Van Wynendaele argues that the reason for the disparity is that new owners of PlayStation 3 games console are simply redeeming free Blu-ray movie vouchers given to them by Sony that they have to exchange at retail stores - this is distorting genuine sales figures, according to Van Wynendaele.

He counter-claimed by declaring that Toshiba had sold 200,00 HD DVD players in the US, compared to just 30,000 true Blu-ray players. Van Wynendaele said that the two million PS3 sales could not be counted because there was no guarantee that people who were buying the consoles were: a) choosing to buy movies with their own money; or b) actually watching Blu-ray movies at all - the vast majority could be using the PS3 to play games on, for example. The truth is, he said, that neither format could claim victory when high def player sales accounted for less than 1% of regular DVD player sales - in the US at least

You drop your prices, we'll drop them lower

Van Wynendaele also said that Toshiba's player pricing strategy would still put its HD DVD format at an advantage when compared to Blu-ray. He said Sony's decision to offer a lower-priced player later in the year would be undercut by Toshiba.

Let's not forget the BDA-sponsored Buy 2 get 1 free sale at Fry's Electronics and 50% off BD discs at Amazon.com, in addition to the voucher scheme artificially inflating sales figures!

Also, note that Toshiba's "5 free HD DVD" promotion are not counted as retail sales since the rebate is sent to the HD DVD group and the HD DVDs come directly from the HD DVD promotion group.

 

[Capeta]

You drop your prices, we'll drop them lower

I like that part...matter fact you can already buy a standalone HD DVD player for less than $300 at Amazon.

 

[Inane_Dork]

I wish all consumer electronics skipped the fricking huge price gouge state.

 

[phat]

This just sounds like sour grapes.

 

[Bobbler]

I dunno what mythical PS3 movie voucher that Van guy is talking about, but mine didn't come with a voucher for free movies. It came with $10 dollar off mail-in rebates on mostly crappy movies and I think everyone else got the same deal.

If he's going to whine about misinformation and such from the BDA (I'm not sure how you can claim sales figures from nielsen and such are just propaganda though), he should probably make sure he doesn't do the same... it just makes him look like an idiot.

Sour grapes for sure....

 

[patsu]

I did not receive any vouchers either... and I bought Casino Royale, probably will buy eragon also.

 

[Rolf N]

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertai...cts-blu-ray-victory-claim?articleid=943604279

Peculiar.
I've seen the "Both formats are irrelevant" and the "HD-DVD is alive and matters" cards played many times, but never by the same person in the same statement. Usually people are more reluctant to contradict themselves.

This is such a farce. Easy pickings:

the reason for the disparity is that new owners of PlayStation 3 games console are simply redeeming free Blu-ray movie vouchers given to them by Sony that they have to exchange at retail stores - this is distorting genuine sales figures, according to Van Wynendaele

He doesn't even claim the numbers are false, just that too many Blu-ray movies had been counted. Translation: HD-DVD steamrolled 3:1 by just pack-ins, i.e. one movie per PS3 sold. This is both not the actual truth of the matter, and at the same time it's not something that makes HD-DVD look particularly able to compete.

He counter-claimed by declaring that Toshiba had sold 200,00 HD DVD players in the US, compared to just 30,000 true Blu-ray players. Van Wynendaele said that the two million PS3 sales could not be counted

Translation: the only way we can still tag along is by stealing the goal-posts and throwing them into the ocean.

there was no guarantee that people who were buying the consoles were: a) choosing to buy movies with their own money; or b) actually watching Blu-ray movies at all

Who needs guarantees when you can have common sense? You have a Blu-ray player at home => you'll at least consider that format as an option instead of DVD the next time you go shipping for films. It is that simple.
b)Refer to the 2 million vouchers that have so unfairly been redeemed. But those films are probably all collecting dust, because nobody wants to watch them

Let's not forget the BDA-sponsored Buy 2 get 1 free sale at Fry's Electronics and 50% off BD discs at Amazon.com, in addition to the voucher scheme artificially inflating sales figures!

Amazon has swung back to price parity between Blu-ray and HD DVD (overshot a little even).

I'm really at a loss as to the relevance of that voucher idea. Every single statistic shows that Blu-ray movies are selling in significantly bigger numbers than HD-DVD. E.g. does Amazon send out freebies for Sony customers and figure them into their sales ranks? Didn't think so either.

 

[Capeta]

When comparing same titles, BR sales are on par with HD DVD despite PS3.

 

[Rolf N]

When comparing same titles, BR sales are on par with HD DVD despite PS3.

Qualify "same titles" and back it up. Does The Departed count?

 

[Capeta]

Happy Feet for one.

 

[Bobbler]

Happy Feet for one.

I'm curious as to where you're getting that from, considering the title hasn't been released yet -- surely you aren't just using amazon rankings from the last several weeks as some sort of proof?

All recent releases that I've seen numbers for (or rentrak %s for) have shown BR outselling HD DVD versions by 1.5-2x. You don't get the 2-3x per title, but you've got a lot more titles being released on BR lately so it gets spread around a bit. To say BR titles aren't selling better than HD DVD per title is a little odd though... maybe you should work for Toshiba, you could be Van's understudy.

 

[Capeta]

I'm curious as to where you're getting that from, considering the title hasn't been released yet -- surely you aren't just using amazon rankings from the last several weeks as some sort of proof?

Why not? BR fans were using it when they needed it to support their own argument so why not now?

 

[V-G]

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertai...cts-blu-ray-victory-claim?articleid=943604279



Let's not forget the BDA-sponsored Buy 2 get 1 free sale at Fry's Electronics and 50% off BD discs at Amazon.com, in addition to the voucher scheme artificially inflating sales figures!

Also, note that Toshiba's "5 free HD DVD" promotion are not counted as retail sales since the rebate is sent to the HD DVD group and the HD DVDs come directly from the HD DVD promotion group.

Well what would you expect Toshiba PR to say, "we have been beaten and our initial strategy to be cheapest has failed"?

I mean that was the the HD-DVD strategy, to be cheaper (on the cost of quality) and win the market before Blu-Ray movies and players would become cheap enough for the average consumer.

Evil Blu-Ray camp sc*w*ng up the HD-DVD camp's plans to win the market through low prices.

I wonder what their excuse for Casino Royale is, from what I know it wasn't on sale.
Maybe the excuse is "the Blu-Ray camp's movies are only selling more because they are better than what we got to offer".

Reminds me of the whole PS3 vs 360 PR debakle "The 360 is only selling better because it's cheaper and got more games worth getting, those cheaters".

 

[V-G]

Why not? BR fans were using it when they needed it to support their own argument so why not now?

The good ol' "they started it" excuse.

 

[Bobbler]

Why not? BR fans were using it when they needed it to support their own argument so why not now?

I don't recall anyone using amazon rankings on unreleased discs to claim sales across the board were the same per title for the two formats, especially in the face of numbers from rentrak/nielsen that say the opposite.

Amazon rankings have been used by both sides (correctly and incorrectly), but I've not seen them used the way you just did -- I can't say I've read every crazed post on every forum though, so who knows =o

I would say it's fair to say on average BR discs are selling 1.5-2x as much as HD DVD disc on the same title. There's bound to be a disc here and there that doesn't follow that rule though (I believe you'll find the NIN: BYIT disc actually sold very close to each other on both formats, maybe even better on HD DVD -- that may have something to do with the type of buyer each format currently has the most of though).

 

[V-G]

I don't recall anyone using amazon rankings on unreleased discs to claim sales across the board were the same per title for the two formats, especially in the face of numbers from rentrak/nielsen that say the opposite.

Amazon rankings have been used by both sides (correctly and incorrectly), but I've not seen them used the way you just did -- I can't say I've read every crazed post on every forum though, so who knows =o

I would say it's fair to say on average BR discs are selling 1.5-2x as much as HD DVD disc on the same title. There's bound to be a disc here and there that doesn't follow that rule though (I believe you'll find the NIN: BYIT disc actually sold very close to each other on both formats, maybe even better on HD DVD -- that may have something to do with the type of buyer each format currently has the most of though).

And we must not forget the fact that some times movies sell better because there's no alternative (Sony's Ghost Rider seems like a good example).
The famous "Big fish in a small sea" syndrome.

Neither is it a big secret that Blu-Ray just has more new block buster titles in its library than HD-DVD due to Disney, Fox and Sony all having a better year ('05) than the other big HollyWood studios.

 

[V-G]

('05)

I meant 2006.

 

[Capeta]

I mean that was the HD-DVD strategy, to be cheaper (on the cost of quality) and win the market before Blu-Ray movies and players would become cheap enough for the average consumer.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-D1...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1173576403&sr=1-10

 

[Graham]

How long has the 5 free hddvd's promotion been running?
Has it been running since day one? (I hadn't heard of it..)
If it has, and since tosh have sold 200k players in the US, and if each player includes redeemable vouchers for 5 free HD DVDs in the US (that don't count towards sales) we could assume there is possibly an extra 1,000,000 hd dvd's floating around in the US (as you'd be a fool not to take up that offer). That has got to have a pretty huge impact on market share.?

Never mind that at the end of janurary, there had been approximatly 430,000 disk sales for each format in the US... (source), which was right at the peak of the bluray surge.


Ohh and competition is awesome.

 

[RobertR1]

The 5 HD DVD's started sometime in March.....