Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release Holiday 2020]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by BRiT, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    [​IMG]
     
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  2. patsu

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    You'll need to address those questions to 3dilettante. :)

    The RPCS3 folks are able to emulate PS3 on a PC. So I had made a hand-waving assumption that it may be doable now without a Cell processor.
    https://rpcs3.net

    If Sony want to serve their library of PS3 games over the cloud (or offer PS5 ports/backward compatibility), perhaps they need to solve this problem eventually. But it's a business question.

    Besides audio, I am not sure if custom SPUs is appropriate (e.g., OS-level near realtime ML on-device inference, camera recognition) say for the new PSEye or PSVR 2. The original Cell was clocked at 3.2GHz to 4GHz to deliver that level of performance. Hetereogeneous Computing is already here in AMD's processors. Seems like unnecessary work since PS5 is a dedicated gaming device. Sony can do all these work on the new CPU/GPU full time.


    EDIT: I also don't see Sony reusing their PS5 APU on other devices. So they will cut all the unused or under used parts away.
     
    #1602 patsu, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  3. Jay

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    Simple answer could be is that cell is an soc, they only need the streaming capabilities.
    So why include the PPC etc, when modified CU's does the job, and integrates easily into the soc?
     
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  4. patsu

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    He's probing for potential use cases.

    The SPUs can be deployed without PPU. Toshiba sold such a configuration before:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpursEngine
     
    #1604 patsu, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  5. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
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  6. chris1515

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    And it is heavily modified so much that it works like a SPU. This is not working at all like a CU This is what I said. ND Audio dev call it a SPU not a CU for example.

    I know this is a modified CU but I am sure when dev code for it this probably have much more in common with SPU because of DMA and a serial programming model than a CUs with a cache and many wavefront.
     
    #1606 chris1515, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  7. PSman1700

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    Well, if it wasn't a (modified) CU then why would Cerny say so himself? (hes not lying?) I guess AMD gpu's will have some form of next generation trueaudio where they 'modify' a CU.
     
  8. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Meme's not welcome. 6 year temporary ban issued.
     
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  9. chris1515

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    But he said this is a modified CUs he said it in Road to PS5 video and he gave more details about the modification to Digitalfoundry. Read at least the part I quote, he explains the difference between a CU inside a GPU and the Tempest engine and it shows it is not working at all the same. And I said ND Audio dev call it a SPU not a modified CU... He probably know much better than any of us the difference between a CU and a SPU.

    I just wanted explain it is heavily modified and the architecture is like a SPU and the programming model too.

    Edit: And why do you want to modify a CU into the GPU, it means it will not be usable for graphic. PS5 is a console better to reserve some CUs on PC. Here it is a discreet part, it is like having a sound coprocessor inside PS5.
     
    #1609 chris1515, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  10. Shifty Geezer

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    I think that's the main point, sadly. Cell would introduce a second ISA of completely different architecture. It probably wouldn't be worth opening up to devs as it'd be a bit of a VU0, unused potential, with devs relying on compute. That would limit it to an audio DSP through Sony's PS5 SDK providing PS3 BC, but without the RSX, so there'd still be that half to emulate. I guess the idea of doing like PS2+PS1 is considered to eclectic for modern tastes.

    If anything sounds the death knell for exciting proprietary hardware in a modern console, I think this is it. The reasons for using Cell are fairly robust beyond added complexity, and it finds itself rejected. All future hardware will be x64, AMD/nVidia GPU and ARM ancillary processors. It's only ever going to be mainstream silicon IPs now. The console IHVs will paper over the tedium by giving the functional units their own names but underneath will be nothing interesting. Heck, I bet next gen MS and Sony share exactly the same console but they agree to talk about different benefits. Sony will get the permission to use AMD' standard built-in audio Tempest II and big up their audio solution. MS will get to talk about the RT units and name them Unreality Desynthesisers (or maybe X-ray Ultra X units). An console wars will be waged over which is better...
     
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  11. Barrabas

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    In addition the Emotion Engine is in there to control the haptic feedback in DS5:wink4:
     
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  12. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    It’s off-topic but I disagree with this. I think we just haven’t hit a wall and that’s why it’s homogenizing. There will be a hard plateau of some sort x64 cannot live forever. There will be another change; it’s just how we expect to get more processing power. We will hit a limit on silicon. Quantum bits are not meant for standard computing. So that just leaves architectural changes.
     
  13. Jay

    Jay
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    Probably right.

    But it's also possible that MS could go arm, as long as it can emulate for BC. It's x86 emu is pretty decent anyway (not there with x64 yet though.
    Remember talking about 6 years or so from now.
    Not saying I think it's likely, but it's not like their not invested in arm also.

    When I said I would like some differences in arch people carried on like it would be the end for cross platform games, and you wouldn't mind seeing big architecture differences :runaway:
     
  14. BRiT

    BRiT Verified (╯°□°)╯
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    What thread is this? Where am I? Is this thread for PS5 or revisiting PS3? :confused:
     
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  15. patsu

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    Sony and MS probably should tackle platform problems in a more holistic fashion anyway.

    AMD continued Cell's early leap into heterogeneous computing, segregated security kernel, etc.
    The platform owners are free to customize their AMD parts.

    But bold ideas in the game industry may require coherent innovations across all layers to gain adoption: SDK, OS, system hardware, workflow, cloud, titles.
    They need to invest their resources carefully.

    For now, we'll have to see how Cerny's dynamic clocking and game world streaming turn out in PS5. The other pieces will be revealed in due time too. That controller's "Create" button can't be just a label change can it ? :)

    It's le "PS3 soul in PS5" sub-thread.
     
  16. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Cell's implementation in PS3 was to top-to-bottom design; the PPE, the SPUs, the ringbus, the RAM arrangement. It's a lot of complexity to bring over if you want PS3 code to run unmodified.
     
  17. pTmdfx

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    I would expect it to behave like TrueAudio Next, except for having a bespoke Tempest CU dedicated to the cause, instead of having to crave out normal CUs.

    CU is the core of data crunching indeed. But behind that spotlight, there is the control stack managing these CUs often being overlooked. AMD GPUs have a long-established compute front-end stack that uses a user-mode command queue model. It controls compute dispatches (work ending up in CUs), accelerated functions (e.g. SDMA), and also its own work scheduling (priority & processes).

    So it is reasonable for AMD and Sony to slot in a modified CU (outside the main pool), while reusing/sharing the rest of the compute control stack. It is fun to theorycraft the return of exotic hardware. But exoticness comes with maintenance cost. Provided that AMD is the one doing the silicon design work, I can’t see why AMD would offer to integrate exotic pieces, when its own IP can satisfy the spec.
     
    #1617 pTmdfx, Apr 13, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
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  18. chris1515

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    They decided to customize an AMD part for their own needs at the end, this is some hybrid CU/SPU. This is a bit exotic but not too much and doing the audio lib many people from ICE Team or Sony ATG were very good with programming SPU it might have helped a lot. TrueAudio Next is doing some reservation of some CU inside a GPU, not the same at all. At the end saying there is no exotism with a CU without cache and an asynchronous DMA programming model is just not true at all whatever people told this is just false. I don't know how Mark Cerny can be more precise than that.

    ND audio developer doing a joke about rendering people wanted to steal the Tempest Engine because most of the time they did not want to give some SPU to audio people.

    [​IMG]


    https://twitter.com/sflavalle
     
    #1618 chris1515, Apr 13, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  19. Jay

    Jay
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    But if using for bc also, sounds like even more work to emulate using hybrid setup to me.
    Or if not more work than using the cu's, wouldn't make it especially any easier?
     
  20. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
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    For years I always thought of the SPUs as a DSP-like architecture. Not sure why it's not called that.

    DMA a block in, process it in a nice massive register array or local memory, DMA the result out and... OMG the next block is already in! No coffee breaks for dsps...
     
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