PhysX: PS3 can handle it; 360 features limited

[Shifty Geezer]

Seeing Ageias PPU flop rating would also put things in context.

I hope you've learnt by now how limited a FLOP figure is in providing information! Peak flops aren't indicative of sustained flops for a given task. It's possible that the PPU makes extensive use of SRAM maybe for a fast local store like Cell enabling it to attain the data access speed to maximise it's vector units. In such a case it might have a lower peak FP figure than say XeCPU, but be able to make better use of those figures. A FLOP figure is very little help in understand the PPU. We need architecture!

 

[swaaye]

Horsepower. FLOPs. "Powerful". LOL.

People seem to try way too hard to figure out some magic number that explains all with these processors. These aren't cars people. You can't just slam some nice number on it and know how fast it's gonna go.

 

[Titanio]

Look Titanio for some reason some people want to fight this issue more than be happy about it. I can't figure out why this is. This is the first time that someone has came out and given some concret evidence on how physics in the PS3 will compare to a dual-core CPU with the PhysX chip included.

They have said it themselves. We are not making it up. How this may change 2 or 3 years from now we don't know. But for some reason Aegia has made the statements that they have said.

Hey, I'm not challenging the point, just wondering if there are any specifics and I guess looking for ultimate clarification. They say PS3 and a PhysX PC can both "do" all the technologies in there, but I'm wondering how their performance compares i.e. do they both do them as well as each, or is there some difference. One's interpretation of the articles suggests they placed it in the same ballpark, but I'm wondering if that's also in terms of performance as well as both handling all the same classes of simulation. That's all..

 

[dskneo]

I thing your over-hyping Cell's capabilities.

and how did you reach that conclusion?... because in my post i haven't said anything to make you think that. I called you back to reality, you know nothing about anything inside PS3 box.

you see, thats the problem around here:
-if one does not say "cell is not so good", you come along and call us "hyping..." (you just did back there)
-if one says directly "i think Cell is gonna be good", you call us fªnboys.

how about that....

its like me saying "i support everybody..", and you call me racist because i did not mention Black people.

 

[blakjedi]

1 XeCPU core > 1 Cell SPU


so why is physics so difficult on XeCPU?

 

[Titanio]

1 XeCPU core > 1 Cell SPU

I think that would depend on your context.

Thumbing through the IBM SPU docs this is in the intro:

1.1 Rationale for SPU Architecture
Key workloads for the SPU are:
• The graphics pipeline, which includes surface subdivision and rendering
• Stream processing, which includes encoding, decoding, encryption, and decryption
• Modeling, which includes game physics

The implementations of the SPU ISA achieve better performance to cost ratios than general-purpose processors because the SPU ISA implementations require approximately half the power and approximately half the chip area for equivalent performance. This is made possible by the key features of the architecture and implementation
listed in Table 1-1.

I think the idea is that certain things may well fare as well on a SPU as on a PPE/XeCore. It has as pretty much as much floating point/simd capability as a PPE/XeCore, and in some situations could have an advantage with its local sram. Is physics one of those things that does as well on a SPU as a PPE/XeCore? I don't know. But it's evidently something STI were eyeing. Whatever the case, I think it's likely that one SPU does it well enough that 7 of them and the PPE outweigh 3 PPE/XeCores.

It would be very interesting to see how one SPU compares to a PPE for these things.

 

[dukmahsik]

this has been debunked by ageia

 

[aldo]

Only the PlayStation 3 and a PhysX PC will have the horsepower to process all of the technology's features, Ageia executives said. The Xbox 360 will not be able to process the fluid-based technology, because of the limitations of its architecture. -Extreme Tech

Apparently Mark Hachman at Extreme Tech got his information from the Ageia Executives over at Evil Avatar.

 

[Titanio]

Apparently Mark Hachman at Extreme Tech got his information from the Ageis Executives over at Evil Avatar.

Is it really necessary for you to place his email in your posts?

We know from first-hand reports from SenatorMonkey on these very boards that they did at least discuss difficulty they were having with such simulation on 360 at least relative to other systems, they simply mistook that for meaning it would not be available. Ditto about relative performance, we have AGEIA's own slides from the CEDEC presentation that make very clear statements about relative power between the systems, even if AGEIA now would prefer if they had never released them because of the headaches it has caused them (you can be sure MS was on the phone as much as any forum-posters here were ).

 

[pso]

Is it really necessary for you to place his email in your posts?

We know from first-hand reports from SenatorMonkey on these very boards that they did at least discuss difficulty they were having with such simulation on 360 at least relative to other systems, they simply mistook that for meaning it would not be available. Ditto about relative performance, we have AGEIA's own slides from the CEDEC presentation that make very clear statements about relative power between the systems, even if AGEIA now would prefer if they had never released them because of the headaches it has caused them (you can be sure MS was on the phone as much as any forum-posters here were ).

So now you're saying Ageia pulled an Anandtech? And what was the last comment about MS, are you implying MS had something to do with these e-mails that you, onetimeposter, and I got?

Come on bro...

 

[Titanio]

So now you're saying Ageia pulled an Anandtech? And what was the last comment about MS, are you implying MS had something to do with these e-mails that you, onetimeposter, and I got?

Come on bro...

I'm saying I doubt MS were very happy that their partners AGEIA were making statements or implications about X360 performance vs the competition.

You don't have to be too cynical to consider that they may have since let AGEIA know that.

 

[pso]

I'm saying I doubt MS were very happy that their partners AGEIA were making statements or implications about X360 performance vs the competition.

You don't have to be too cynical to consider that they may have since let AGEIA know that.

It's funny, it really is. Yesterday, almost everybody(mostly Sony fans) crucified onetimeposter about his e-mail response being valid and asking for more 'proof'. Now that you and I got the same e-mails, it's MS on the horn with Ageia covering up their mistake and throwing PR BS.

Incredible.

 

[Kb-Smoker]

It's funny, it really is. Yesterday, almost everybody(mostly Sony fans) crucified onetimeposter about his e-mail response being valid and asking for more 'proof'. Now that you and I got the same e-mails, it's MS on the horn with Ageia covering up their mistake and throwing PR BS.

Incredible.

I really don't see how this statement really changes anything they said. I really want to get my hands on that presentation. I still don't see how this could be good for the xbox 360...

 

[Titanio]

It's funny, it really is. Yesterday, almost everybody(mostly Sony fans) crucified onetimeposter about his e-mail response being valid and asking for more 'proof'. Now that you and I got the same e-mails, it's MS on the horn with Ageia covering up their mistake and throwing PR BS.

Incredible.

So what do you think about the slides in the 4Gamer.net article? Or the comments from Lassanske there? Or the comments from SenatorMonkey here?

You think AGEIA spent time across multiple conferences to mislead a bunch of developers?

Methinks they simply said too much.

 

[mckmas8808]

So what do you think about the slides in the 4Gamer.net article? Or the comments from Lassanske there? Or the comments from SenatorMonkey here?

You think AGEIA spent time across multiple conferences to mislead a bunch of developers?

Methinks they simply said too much.

Thank you. *hears an around of applause* WHY would they confuse DEVELOPERS?

 

[pso]

So what do you think about the slides in the 4Gamer.net article? Or the comments from Lassanske there? Or the comments from SenatorMonkey here?

You think AGEIA spent time across multiple conferences to mislead a bunch of developers?

Methinks they simply said too much.

To tell you the truth, I'm not going to believe anything regarding the 360 or PS3, no matter who it's from, from here on out. This week proves how high the drama is between these 2 consoles. I expect more PR BS from both camps (Sony and MS) since TGS is around the corner and the launch of the 360 in Nov.

As for SenatorMonkey, I really don't know.

You could believe that Ageia got slapped on the wrist from MS, that's your opinion. What these e-mails prove is that some people will take the reponse differently than others. Meaning, people will side with opinions that fits their own.

 

[Lysander]

Only info I have on Novodex ppu is from US patent web site: application number for ppu 20050075849

Why AGEIA talks about PS3 main core as a processor? Are not PS3 main core and each of X2cpu core identical?

 

[mckmas8808]

To tell you the truth, I'm not going to believe anything regarding the 360 or PS3, no matter who it's from, from here on out. This week proves how high the drama is between these 2 consoles. I expect more PR BS from both camps (Sony and MS) since TGS is around the corner and the launch of the 360 in Nov.

As for SenatorMonkey, I really don't know.

You could believe that Ageia got slapped on the wrist from MS, that's your opinion. What these e-mails prove is that some people will take the reponse differently than others. Meaning, people will side with opinions that fits their own.

I'm going to pay close attention to the games being made. TGS should be fun.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

Alpha you are too smart to say something like that. Some people (like me) are grouping CELL's capability with a dedicated PPU because statements like these.

That still says nothing. It's based on a tech demo outside of a real-world game. It has the same value that the Cell graphics demonstrations have. Cell can also process 3D graphics better than the Xenon. However, that's in a vacuum. We'll never see Cell dedicated 100% to graphics just like we won't see it dedicated 100% to physics.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

and how did you reach that conclusion?... because in my post i haven't said anything to make you think that. I called you back to reality, you know nothing about anything inside PS3 box.

Yes, I do. I know that the Cell will not be used as a dedicated physics processing unit. It will have other tasks as well. You're the one pimping the Cell as a PPU equivalent which is ludicrous. It will never be as good as a dedicated PPU just like it will never be as good at graphics processing as a dedicated GPU. That's common goddamn sense.

you see, thats the problem around here:
-if one does not say "cell is not so good", you come along and call us "hyping..." (you just did back there)

Give me an example. Methinks you're just generalizing to force a non-existant point.

-if one says directly "i think Cell is gonna be good", you call us fªnboys.

how about that....

Where did I call you a f@nboy? I just said I'd rather err on the side of caution than hype the Cell up as someing "as good as a dedicated PPU" which is obvious bullshit and would make me look like a f@nboy. I didn't say the Cell wasn't good at physics. I just found a problem with people equating it with a dedicated physics processor based on one isolated technical demonstration.

its like me saying "i support everybody..", and you call me racist because i did not mention Black people.

Shit, even your analogies are absurd...