Phantom is solid, according to [H]

[WaltC]

Here's the story:

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjU3LDE=

Well, I suppose if there is an appropriate place for this story then [H] is absolutely it...

I thought these comments in Kyle's Phantom preview conclusion were certainly interesting:

]

As we have shown to you here, the Phantom never was cutting edge gaming technology, at least not from a hardware standpoint, and from what I can tell, it never will be. That said, if they can get their game streaming and downloading technology working, they will actually have something to sell. Who is still buying? I don't know. I personally want my game on my CDRom or DVD where I can do with it what I want at any time. Thinking of paying $50 for a game on a Phantom console then not being able to load it on my laptop for a trip bothers me some.

All that said, I think there is a market for a product such as the Phantom but they need to be looking at the pre-teen market for sure and focusing on educational and entertainment content that can be easily controlled by parents. PC gamers want to be able to upgrade hardware and move their content easily and neither of those issues is addressed on a Phantom console.

If the Phantom makes it big in the market you can count on it being reported here along with a big helping of marinated crow. If you are thinking all of this sounds great and are interested in the CEO that controls Infinium Labs, we highly suggest you read our Behind the Infinium Phantom Console article from last year.

We stand behind our content 100%, no matter how many lawsuits Infinium Labs files against us for telling the truth about them and their products.

I particularly thought this sentence was amusing in the extreme: As we have shown to you here, the Phantom never was cutting edge gaming technology, at least not from a hardware standpoint, and from what I can tell, it never will be. That said, if they can get their game streaming and downloading technology working, they will actually have something to sell.

Note how there no longer is any question from [H] as to whether or not the Phantom is real; no question at [H] any more that it's a con or a scam--a literal Phantom of the NoShow Opera, but rather, it appears [H] now wants to revise all its past statements about the company to mean simply that: the Phantom never was cutting edge gaming technology. Wow, what a switcheroo...Heh...

Kyle further expands his salute to the solidity of the Phantom by adding: if they can get their game streaming and downloading technology working, they will actually have something to sell. Wow, what an earth-shattering revelation! But isn't that exactly what IL has been saying since Day One? Hasn't IL always been saying, in effect, "When we get everything ready we will ship our product?" Yes, Kyle can be exceedingly slow on the uptake, but at least he eventually gets there...

But back to his "it's not cutting edge gaming technology" observation. I have only three points to make about that observation:

*Compared to the xBox currently shipping it looks "cutting edge" to me, at least in terms of its gpu and cpu, if nothing else. (Kyle's never opened up a current xBox, I suppose, and probably just doesn't know how dated its hardware is.)

*From what I've read, IL plans to either sell these things very, very cheaply or else *give them away* as a part a bundle with a subscription to its gaming service, so I'm wondering just what Kyle expected--an A64 with a gig of ram sporting an x800PE with a Sound Blaster Audigy 2, maybe? (Of course, he knows better.)

*From what I recall, since the first time I read a blurb from IL a couple of years ago carried on some site somewhere, the plan was always to use off-the-shelf PC component technology for the console. That looks to be exactly what they did. One wonders why this might have suprised Kyle in any way whatsoever.

Now, I wonder what this will do for the "WhereisPhantom.com" web site? At the least, I imagine, it will need to change its name to "A-Phantom-is-now-at[H].com", surely...

I'll conclude with this final quote from Kyle's conclusion: We stand behind our content 100%, no matter how many lawsuits Infinium Labs files against us for telling the truth about them and their products.

Which content is that, Kyle? The content alleging the Phantom is a con and a sham foisted by crooks, or the more recent content simply alleging that the Phantom, while actually solid, just isn't "cutting edge hardware for gamers"?

I have a conclusion of my own, which is that apparently Kyle Bennett of [H] believes that the only citizen in the US for whom the Constitutional right of free speech applies, the only citizen to deserve that precious right paid for by blood sacrifice, is Kyle Bennett. He certainly seems unable to extend that right to people like me who merely post our opinions in forums, or companies like IL who are merely trying to take a product from scratch conception to market. So therefore I think I have finally figured out what [H] stands for, and that is, [H]ypocrisy...

Unbelievable.

 

[John Reynolds]

Because Kyle was able to lay hands on one unit does not mean the millions investors have poured into the company have been well spent or that the company will ever be able to ramp up production and successfully market the console, particularly as more 'n more time passes and the hardware inside the console continues to age and thus grows less appealling to the market it's seeking to target.

Kyle's preview of the hardware inside one unit is therefore hardly a refutation of his earlier reporting, no matter much your blatantly obvious agenda against Kyle or [H] (or both) would like it to be.

 

[WaltC]

Because Kyle was able to lay hands on one unit does not mean the millions investors have poured into the company have been well spent or that the company will ever be able to ramp up production and successfully market the console, particularly as more 'n more time passes and the hardware inside the console continues to age and thus grows less appealling to the market it's seeking to target.

Kyle's preview of the hardware inside one unit is therefore hardly a refutation of his earlier reporting, no matter much your blatantly obvious agenda against Kyle or [H] (or both) would like it to be.

I have no agenda, John--I'm not suing anyone or being sued, remember? Look to the people involved in suing each other for agendas. I do, however, have an opinion.

My opinion, however, is that IL's investors are "big boys"--that is, adults who are capable of taking care of themselves and capable of making their own decisions relative to IL, or relative to any other such venture (of which there are literally hundreds around the world just like IL.) Despite what has been said about the IL venture, it is neither uncommon nor unusual among the format for start-up software and hardware companies. As I've worked in a few myself during the years, I know.

I think it unfortunate that you think that because I have an opinion which seems to differ from yours it is merely an "agenda"--so what does that make your opinion, then? How about we agree to disagree and leave it at that? I would certainly hope you'd remember that I had not the slightest thing to do with this situation as it has unfolded and developed, from the standpoint of either agenda involved.

My opinion is that "freedom of speech" is for *everybody,* not merely [H]. If you want to characterize that as an "agenda" well then I suppose you can...

 

[JBark]

Anyone remember the supposed initial release date for Phantom? I do, and it was March of 2003. During their initial announcement in January 2003, the specs were supposed to be a 2-3GHz AMD, 256MB Ram, "High end" nvidia card, and a 100+ GB HD. That was very impressive for the time. In fact, there was no way anyone would believe they could sell that type of system for $300 or less.

March 2003 came and went, and here's the specs during their August 2003 announcment, when the release date was Q1 2004, still pretty impressive for a $299 console:
3.0GHz processor
256MB DDR RAM
Nvidia video card
Intel motherboard
Dolby Digital 7.1 surround sound
100GB+ internal storage
Onboard RF wireless modules
S-video, RCA, component video, and PAL support
10/100 baseT Ethernet
Wireless controller
Wireless keyboard and mouse
2 USB ports
4 controller ports
12' port extension cable

And now what are the real specs?
AMD 2500+ (1.83GHz)
40GB HD
256MB RAM
nVidia 5700Ultra

Not quite as impressive as their orignal specs, and it's been 18 months from the date it was supposed to be released.

Well now we've figured out how they plan to sell that system for $200. Just delay your release by almost 2 years, and downgrade some of your hardware specs.


Try this. Imagine that Dell just announced that this system would be available by Christmas for $500:
6GHz P4
2GB Ram
500GB HD
SLI nVidia 6800Ultras

Now fast forward 18 months, and Dell finally releases it with lowered specs. Sure they released it, but it doesn't really matter now does it? It's nothing more than your everyday system, not the amazing machine it was 18 months ago. And would you be here supporting them?

Stealth Edit:
And not to sound like an ass, but if you want to complain about [H], maybe posting in their own forums would be a better idea?

 

[aranfell]

Walt,

Kyle also reported that the most of the connectors on the back of that prototype are not connected to anything and he couldn't get it to run. He reported that current prototypes are completely different, software necessary for Phantom to ship product does not yet appear to exist, Phantom is still missing self-imposed deadlines on announcing details (most recently the game list), and cited an independent review of the Phantom business model that finds it quite problematic. So I don't see that his current posting contradicts his earlier articles questioning whether Phantom (as a product) will ever exist.

I'm not defending Kyle's style of argument or the attacks he posted against you. I seldom read his opinion pieces or forum postings anymore because I've too often found his style extremely annoying. That's my right, as it is his right to invite a lawsuit from Phantom by his agressive manner of stating what he feels is the truth. I also know from personal experience that *if* someone customarily uses threats of lawsuits to silence valid criticism, then it's a public service when someone find stands up for their right to speak.

Walt, I hope that I haven't offended you. Obviously I still read *your* postings! Please keep up the good work. When someone attacks your posts, folks like me who mostly just read the forums can see both sides and make our own judgements about who is being reasonable and who isn't.

 

[kyleb]

And not to sound like an ass, but if you want to complain about [H], maybe posting in their own forums would be a better idea?

Nah, that is a stupid idea. They ban anyone who does anything like that.

 

[WaltC]

Jbark,

Here's the problem I have with all of this. At no time has IL ever advertised a product for sale to the public, or received even one cent from a buying customer placing an advance order for any product. In short, it is utterly impossible to even allege that IL has ever tried to defraud a single, solitary gamer anywhere in the world with the Phantom console.

As regards your complaints about IL's product roadmaps as you report them to have been...am I missing something, because I cannot fathom how any of that is in any way different from the Intel Corporation publishing a roadmap showing it would be shipping .09 Prescott cpus some 18 months to two years before it was actually able to do so, not to mention none of those roadmaps ever at any time so much as hinted that Intel would eventually drop its MHz roadmap for P4...? How about Intel's roadmap of a few months ago which proclaimed it would be shipping 4GHz Prescotts in quantity by the end of '04? Where is [H] in issues like this--supposedly defending the rights of the poor, stupid Intel investor who has been "mislead" by all of Intel's glowing roadmaps--many of which have turned turned out to be phantoms themselves?

The fact is--fact, mind you--that many, many roadmaps published by both hardware and software companies turn out to be wrong, and sometimes products slated for release in product roadmaps *never* materialize. That is commonplace among technology companies--certainly not odd or unusual. So if IL is crooked in your lights for changing a roadmap--then so is *everybody* else guilty of the same exact thing. It's the double standard applied to IL that I object to, and it's that double standard which I see as hypocritical.

Where was [H] last year protecting the rights of Vivendi publishing investors when Valve failed to deliver HL2 as scheduled *all year long*--indeed, as scheduled right up until just a couple of *weeks* before the game was to have shipped? I mean, if [H] considers it bizarre and strange that a start-up console company might take--gasp, 18 months--to deliver a product, then companies like Valve and id software must be the biggest cons and crooks that ever lived, since they took 5-6 *years* to create and ship nothing but their respective games. Etc. and etc. ad infinitum.

IMO, the only investors on earth that [H] deems worthy of "protection" are the IL investors. I mean, why doesn't Kyle just come out and call them all (IL investors) idiots? Might as well, as it's obvious he firmly believes he knows much more about IL than *they do*--even though to my knowledge whereas they are investing their own money in the company [H] invests in absolutely nothing except lawyers and preemptive lawsuits.

Who died and made KB judge, jury, and executioner, is what I want to know. For someone who rails constantly about "freedom of speech" it's clear to me that apart from himself he cannot understand how that principle might apply to anyone else. He certainly doesn't understand the concept of "two sides to every coin," or "innocent until proven guilty," etc., does he?

 

[digitalwanderer]

Walt, Kyle did a GOOD THING(tm) on the Phantom/Infinium thingy....yes? :|

 

[Hanners]

Here's the problem I have with all of this. At no time has IL ever advertised a product for sale to the public, or received even one cent from a buying customer placing an advance order for any product. In short, it is utterly impossible to even allege that IL has ever tried to defraud a single, solitary gamer anywhere in the world with the Phantom console.

They have, however, taken millions in investors money. For a PC with a cathode ray tube and nice-looking sleeve?

Besides which, I can't see how this particular article refutes any of the specific points in the original article [H] posted - If I'm wrong and this is the case, you should be able to provide a few quotes from the original article and then show how they have been dismissed by this subsequent work.

 

[Fodder]

I have no agenda, John

Walt, you're an agenda with legs.

 

[WaltC]

Walt,

Kyle also reported that the most of the connectors on the back of that prototype are not connected to anything and he couldn't get it to run. He reported that current prototypes are completely different, software necessary for Phantom to ship product does not yet appear to exist, Phantom is still missing self-imposed deadlines on announcing details (most recently the game list), and cited an independent review of the Phantom business model that finds it quite problematic. So I don't see that his current posting contradicts his earlier articles questioning whether Phantom (as a product) will ever exist.

I'm not defending Kyle's style of argument or the attacks he posted against you. I seldom read his opinion pieces or forum postings anymore because I've too often found his style extremely annoying. That's my right, as it is his right to invite a lawsuit from Phantom by his agressive manner of stating what he feels is the truth. I also know from personal experience that *if* someone customarily uses threats of lawsuits to silence valid criticism, then it's a public service when someone find stands up for their right to speak.

Walt, I hope that I haven't offended you. Obviously I still read *your* postings! Please keep up the good work. When someone attacks your posts, folks like me who mostly just read the forums can see both sides and make our own judgements about who is being reasonable and who isn't.

Heh...Honestly, I am hard to offend ... I like discussion and the more spirited the better, because often worthwhile conclusions and concepts result. I'll admit that Kyle's wish that I expire early simply because I stated that "life's too short for lawsuits" did suprise me somewhat, but it didn't offend me because I know that Kyle's under a lot of pressure right now. Where he and I disagree is only in that I think the pressure is mostly self-inflicted from his end, but that's as it is... He's knee-deep in the toilet right now and is just going to have to stand there until the flush completes... IE, the time for him to have avoided all of this is long past, apparently.

With respect to your points about the prototype he looked at being incomplete--well, this is true of every prototype product I have ever seen. It is the nature of prototypes. If Kyle had looked at a GF6800U in its prototype stage, he'd have seen a pcb with *wires* soldered between connection points, he'd a have seen generally a very sloppy and very buggy mess with buggy drivers to boot. This has been true for every pre-production grade *prototype* of every 3d-card I have ever seen, yet I cannot recall anyone ever making the case that "because the prototype sucks so goes the final product." But unfortunately that seems to be just the case [H] is making over the first prototype Phantom console Kyle has ever seen.

Last, talking about IL's business plan and whether it's "good" or not strikes me as a matter to be determined by the people who invest their money in IL. Those people make their decisions with full knowledge of the business plan, and full knowledge of the principals running IL. After all, what information is available to you and me about IL's business plan that is not also available to Il investors?

All of that information is disclosed up front and within the SEC filings that IL has made. My point is only that regardless of what outsiders may think of a given start-up's business plan, what is relevant is what the company's investors think of it. Even if you and I and Kyle are of the opinion that IL's business plan has little chance of success, that still does not mean that IL investors don't know what they are doing with their own money when they invest in IL. That is a personal decision for them to make, in my opinion.

The thing is that many "investors" and so-called "venture-capitalist" firms routinely invest into a wide spectrum of startup companies and penny-ante stocks, and make such investments routinely. Often it's little more than "seed money" they throw around in the hopes it will take root and flower *somewhere* and return them 100-1 on their investments (most would be delighted with 10-1.) The investor mentality of such groups is much different than what the non-investor might imagine it to be, is the point to remember.

IMO, unless it can be proven that IL has defrauded its investors by lying to them and misleading them, there's no basis on which to conclude such investors are being defrauded, regardless of what non-investors might think of the situation from the outside.

From the start what has bothered me about [H]'s stated position of "standing up for the IL investor" (who to my knowledge never invited [H] to "stand up" for him in the first place) is the fact that the kind of negative, slur PR [H]'s been generating about the company, while the start-up is struggling to get its first products out of the door, can do little except to hurt the company and hurt the potential return on the money that IL investors have already invested in IL, can it? As such, I believe that is why no IL investors to date have joined [H] in a suit against IL, or are suing IL of their own initiative--so far as I have read and am aware.

I said from the start that I would have complete sympathy with [H]'s position re: IL IF [H] had been invited by IL investors to assault the company, or [H] could even have produced a list of disenfranchised IL investors who were unhappy and themselves were suing the IL principals over the hypothetical conditions [H] has alleged. To my knowledge, then, because [H] had no knowledge of such disenfranchised IL investors at the time it wrote the disputed article [H] had no basis whatever for even imagining that it was representing the interests of IL investors in any manner whatsoever. Again, that's been my opinion since the first day I wrote on the subject in another forum months ago. I urged [H] to settle quickly, but of course that sentiment fell on completely deaf ears--not, mind you, that I would expect anyone else to listen to me--but just because I know in lawsuits there are few winners except the lawyers who earn their fees. I had hoped to see [H] avoid its present straights, but of course it was never my decision.

The thing is, you know, that whether [H] had written the first article or not written it at all, the ultimate fate of IL would be the same in the end, regardless. Everything depends on whether or not they can ship their products, [H]'s opinions on how their company should be managed during product development notwithstanding. The difference, of course, is that [H], had it waited to see what IL ultimately could or could not do (ie, had [H] waited until IL shipped the console or else folded) before writing the dsiputed article, [H] would never have wound up in court. That's the pity of it all for me, because it seems that both [H] and IL will be losers from some aspect, regardless of which company ultimately prevails in court.

 

[WaltC]

They have, however, taken millions in investors money. For a PC with a cathode ray tube and nice-looking sleeve?

Besides which, I can't see how this particular article refutes any of the specific points in the original article [H] posted - If I'm wrong and this is the case, you should be able to provide a few quotes from the original article and then show how they have been dismissed by this subsequent work.

Actually, I don't recall IL "taking" anything from investors that investors did not freely give IL, and give with a 100% knowledge of the company they were giving it to... I'll be happy to stand corrected if you can demonstrate how IL took a penny of investor money against the will of their investors...

That's the thing--you guys have got IL's investors pegged as utter idiots with far more money than brains, and have concluded that [H] needs to save them from themselves, even if they don't agree...

 

[digitalwanderer]

That's the thing--you guys have got IL's investors pegged as utter idiots with far more money than brains, and have concluded that [H] needs to save them from themselves, even if they don't agree...

Not at all, a fool and his money can be parted and I won't bitch....I just hate Infinium for treating the community like such idiots and being so condescending to us.

That's why I'm enjoying watching them crash and burn so much. Screw the investors, anyone dumb enough to give money to Infinium deserves what they get back on their investment.

 

[WaltC]

Walt, you're an agenda with legs.

Heh-Heh... Please, Fodder, maybe "An opinion with legs," is more apt.... (I enjoyed that!)

 

[WaltC]

Not at all, a fool and his money can be parted and I won't bitch....I just hate Infinium for treating the community like such idiots and being so condescending to us.

Well, I can honestly say IL has never done anything untoward to me... So I guess I just have no ill will toward the company. Dig, IL has never even offered a product for sale up to this point in time--so I'm afraid I don't get the "treating the community like idiots" point of view. Personally, had it not been for [H]'s treatment of IL, I'd never have given IL a second thought... Talking about treating the community like idiots, though, I wonder where 3d-card companies who sell 3d-cards to pubescent boys by parading images of scantily clad, big-boobed fairies around fit in there? Heh... (Lots of companies treat their customers like idiots in one way or another, it seems to me, once they are able to ship their products.)

Screw the investors, anyone dumb enough to give money to Infinium deserves what they get back on their investment.

And that is exactly my point... Like you say, IL investors can take care of themselves, as is considered true for most adults with money to burn, or invest for a return, whatever the case may be.

 

[WaltC]

...

That's why I'm enjoying watching them crash and burn so much....

Dig, I wanted to return to this point because I think you've hit on a critical aspect of this issue that might not be as apparent as it should be at the moment.

If you go to whereisphantom.com you'll read a lot of gleeful cackling about IL's misfortunes as whereisphantom.com is characterizing them. I'm of the opinion that instead of delighting in the ruination of IL (again, as characterized by the web site), and taking comfort from it, if I was KB I'd be on my knees passionately pleading with my Diety of choice to bring great success to IL in their product rollout and praying that IL sells a million Phantom consoles in the first three months of production. Why?

In order for IL to get anywhere in its suit with [H], even if it should obtain a finding of libel against [H], IL is going to have to show financial damages as the result of [H]'s publicity over the last several months. If IL successfully launches the Phantom to wide acclaim it will make it all but impossible for IL to claim that [H]'s publicity damaged it financially.

If, otoh, IL was to "crash and burn" prior to being able to successfully launch and ship its console--then guess who is going to get blamed? [H] is who IL will blame, and the financial damages it will list will accrue to the account of [H]. (Whether or not any court judgment will favor IL is another matter, of course, but if the Federal court should find that [H] libeled IL, and IL has crashed and burned prior to being able to ship a product, then [H] will most likely have to pay damages of a significant amount.)

The thing of it is that [H]'s PR assault on IL came at a critical time in any start-up tech company's lifespan--the development, pre-shipping period in which tech companies *have no income* and exist exclusively on investor funding. This is how all tech-sector startups begin--somebody funds them through their product development cycle--either private or public investors. Income routinely doesn't start for tech start-ups until they are shipping products.

What [H] has to fear is being made the *scapegoat*, deservedly or otherwise, for IL's misfortunes, should they exist and become a fatal eventuality. [H] could have avoided all of this entirely simply by waiting until IL was through the development phase and was either shipping a product, or else had gone under (without any assistance from [H]-generated publicity.) Done at the right time, [H] could have written almost anything it wanted to write without fear of being blamed for the fate of IL. But because [H], and [H] alone, chose to mount a national (via the Internet) negative PR campaign against IL during the product development phase when investor income was essential to the success of the company's product rollout, because of the *timing* of [H]'s attacks, should IL "crash and burn" then it's for certain that IL, and possibly some of IL's investors, too, will seek recompense from [H] for their damages.

The thing is that utterly without realizing it, even if IL was indeed a scam all along, then by its actions [H] may have set itself up as a perfect patsy, a perfect scapegoat, for IL to bail out on. In the tech business, it's all in the timing... I hate it that [H]'s sense of timing here was so poor.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Funny thread thanks for the laughs Walt.

You lining up to give money to Infinium? Do you hate [H] enough to throw your money away?

 

[euan]

I'm shocked that they missed the satellite internet co-ax connections. Where's the SLI connector, to allow multiple consoles to work together for better performance? Further, those connectors don't need to be connected, the signals are beamed from source to the plug using a new fusion beam-partical system that us top secret and about to be patented...

 

[kemosabe]

Hey Walt,

You've made several valid points now and in the past about why [H] might have gone beyond what is legally permissible in trying to unmask potentially questionable business practices on the part of IL. And whether or not KB is ultimately found by the courts to have been "within his rights" to do so, I have no doubt that he was totally misguided in his ridiculous sermon to you about the constitutional right of free speech. Anyone with more than a high-school education would recognize his outburst for what it was. But don't let your disappointment over his superficial understanding become an obsession - neither KB nor IL are worth it.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I hate it that [H]'s sense of timing here was so poor.

I beg to differ in my opinion on Hard's timing, I think it was excellent. Infinium had been hyping the bejeebus out of their console on all the boards, but I felt that [H] showed that they were just a vaporwear company.

We'll see how the courts see it, I reckon.