PGR2: confirmed 30fps only.

[Ug Lee]

http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=52971

Inevitably all this extra detail comes at a price, with the overall frame rate locked at 30 FPS, rather than the 60 used in the original. Lead programmer Roger Perkins argued: "We wanted to keep the visual quality. We'd rather it was running at a consistent frame rate at 30, than occasionally chugging at 60 as it did in the original. Microsoft did some research and found people didn't even notice whether the game was running at 30 or 60 FPS." And to be fair, having played the game for an hour or so, we didn't notice either.

This is a bitter disappointment as far as I'm concerned. The flagship racer on Xbox, apparently, cut down like this.

More detail, fine, but I personally am not worried overly by trackside detail when I'm trying to win a race.

The trend of 30fps Xbox games is nothing short of disturbing, quite frankly.

 

[Ozymandis]

The 30 fps thing seems to be a real issue with Xbox games. Maybe because most of the games on the system are from N.A. developers? It seems to be that Japanese devs tend to try for 60 fps more often than Western ones.

I'm not going to be too pissy about PGR2 being 30 fps though. Because at least it'll support 720p (hopefully in widescreen too)

 

[London Geezer]

rather than the 60 used in the original. Lead programmer Roger Perkins argued: "We wanted to keep the visual quality.

Wasn't the original running at 30fps too?

still, it's pretty sad to have the most powerful console on the market stuck at 30fpr to keep the detail high enough to make it LOOK like the most powerful console on the market.....

GT4 will be running at 60fps. If it ran at 30fps it would look even more gorgeous than it already does, which is arguably better than PGR2 running at 30fps....

 

[rabidrabbit]

You might not see the difference between 30fps and 60 fps on a 20" TV, but on a bigger screen 30 fps is very annoying.
I noticed this when switching from 25" to 52". On my 25" EA Big's SSX looked very smooth, on 52" it is almost unplayable.

GT3 is just as smooth in 52" as it looked in 25".

 

[Ug Lee]

PGR was 60fps, yes.

Oz, 720p support will soften the blow, yes.

To me it's pretty clear that PGR2 will win the IQ fight, but GT4 the framerate issue. As far as the racing genre goes, my preference lies completely in the framerate camp.

MotoGP is a prime example - not the most detailed racing game you'll ever play, but a buttery smooth 60fps makes it a joy to look at and play.

Still, PGR2 features my home town, Sydney, so I'm nearly buying it on that fact alone (and the fact that I loved PGR).

 

[London Geezer]

i mean it's quite funny to see most PS2 games running at 60fps while most XBOX games run at a sometimes unstable 30fps....
very weird...

 

[Ug Lee]

I'd love to get some experienced thoughts in this thread, but I get the feeling that regarding Xbox and ho-hum framerates, it's a bandwidth issue.

Obviously there would be more 60fps PS2 games based on library size alone, but I would also say that the PS2 has more 60fps games based on ratio, by quite a large margin too.

 

[Qroach]

PGR was 30

 

[London Geezer]

well, all the MAJOR PS2 games run at 60fps, Jak and daxter and ratchet and clank and their sequels, GT4, MGS games, and many others...

on xbox i cant think of a major game running at 60fps. i cant think of any major game at all to be honest but thats another story...

 

[Qroach]

Guys it's called pushing the envolope. It's easy to make a racer that runs at 60fps solid if it's not very detailed. You have a simple trade, off, (in most cases) improve the visuals in exchange for a lower 30 fps (preferrably locked). It's a perfectly fine trade of as long as you don't have the framerate fluctuating.

People need to stop making a fuss about 30 vrs 60 when it's on a TV. Computer monitors that can display a full 60 frames are another story

 

[Qroach]

My god, man, you're comparing Jak and Dexter ( a platform game ) to a racing game? That's not logical.

I bet you anything Jak and Dexter was actually running at 30 fps. Why would a platformer need to run above that? How many people complained when Mario sunshine only ran at 30fps (and looked visually better than jak and dexter).

Look at it this way, PS2 titles tend to use smaller textures and single texturing. They still look fine, but not as good as the multi textured games on other platforms. The same reason 9 times out of 10 a multiplatform game look better on gamecube and Xbox over PS2 when extra features are used (unless it comes from EA sports).

 

[London Geezer]

My god, man, you're comparing Jak and Dexter ( a platform game) to a racing game? That's not ligical.

I bet you anything Jak and dexter was actually running at 30 fps. Why would a platformer need to run above that? How many people complained when Mario sunshine only ran at 30fps (and looked visually better than jak and dexter).

im pretty sure J&D ran at an unstable 60fps, the unstableness stemming from the constant loading of the environments which at times could make the game lag. still, yeah they're different games, but all i was saying is that most of PS2 major games run at 60fps whatever genre they are, while the situation is quite different on xbox...
and the "mario looking better than J&D" thing is pretty subjective to be honest. i hate the look of Mario sunshine. although it might have used more advanced features. remember it also came out quite some time after J&D anyway. JAK2 will most certainly be more advanced than Mario Sunshine in poly counts alone.

 

[London Geezer]

PS2 titles tend to use smaller textures and single texturing.

smaller textures, yeah, but SINGLE texturing??? what r u kidding me? i have yet to see a decent PS2 game not using multi texturing. and that is from launch.

 

[Qroach]

smaller textures, yeah, but SINGLE texturing??? what r u kidding me? i have yet to see a decent PS2 game not using multi texturing. and that is from launch.

Uh, no. They only way to have multi texturing on PS2 ( any PS2 devs correct me if I'm wrong) is to resend the geometry a second time, thereby trading off performance in exchange for better visuals. I don't think and decent PS2 game does this as it impacts performance too much.

How about this, you find me all thezse games you think ar eusing multitexturing, I'll wager some cash that they aren't. At least not in the way the other consoles do it without a performance hit.

 

[zidane1strife]

Well, I personally prefer 30fps... for now. I don't mind the lower fps, as long as it is stable, and since I like playing in small screens(13-19), I've not experienced any real probs...

The added detail is usually well worth it IMO.

 

[Phil]

My god, man, you're comparing Jak and Dexter ( a platform game ) to a racing game? That's not logical.

I bet you anything Jak and Dexter was actually running at 30 fps. Why would a platformer need to run above that? How many people complained when Mario sunshine only ran at 30fps (and looked visually better than jak and dexter).

Look at it this way, PS2 titles tend to use smaller textures and single texturing. They still look fine, but not as good as the multi textured games on other platforms. The same reason 9 times out of 10 a multiplatform game look better on gamecube and Xbox over PS2 when extra features are used (unless it comes from EA sports).

Jak & Daxter aswell as Jak II are solid 60 fps titles. It's quite simple why actually: the faster the framerate, the more precision you have - and especially a platformer can benefit greatly from this. If you have played Mario or say Rayman, you'll notice the extreme difference in precision.

And btw; Mario does not look visually better than J&D. I might have not heard people complaining about the framerate, but most definately about the graphics which were a huge disappointment, given that expectations were fairly high.

Also, I don't give a damn how many texture layers a game boosts, as long as it looks as good and runs significantly faster. I won't touch on why Xbox games go for the 30 fps "advantage", but a 60 fps is always better IMO, even if the graphics take a hit. That PGR2 is a 30 fps game is HUGE disappointment and simply not exceptable, no matter how great it may look.

 

[Ug Lee]

I just fired up PGR and Apex/Racing Evoluzione, both in 480p. Apex/RE is clearly 30fps, PGR is clearly 60.

Qroach I'd agree with your point depending on the genre, but with racers a smooth framerate really shows up, just like a lower framerate does too.

It's easy to make a racer that runs at 60fps solid if it's not very detailed.

Unless the racer is GT3 or GT4. The only problem I see with either title is IQ, not solid framerate or detail.

Jak and Daxter at 30fps? Definitely not.

 

[zidane1strife]

Uh, no. They only way to have multi texturing on PS2 ( any PS2 devs correct me if I'm wrong) is to resend the geometry a second time, thereby trading off performance in exchange for better visuals.

Well, it's true, but if I'm not mistaken, it's only for that particular geometry that is multi-textured, and I think faf said, the EE can actually re-send the same previously calculated verts...

Since the GS is supah fast, it can actually make it viable.

 

[Phil]

BTW; Jak & Daxter has quite a few objects that use multi-texturing. For example shiny reflective surfaces on certain buildings etc. I'm sure Marconelly could clarify this.

 

[London Geezer]

Uh, no. They only way to have multi texturing on PS2 ( any PS2 devs correct me if I'm wrong) is to resend the geometry a second time, thereby trading off performance in exchange for better visuals. I don't think and decent PS2 game does this as it impacts performance too much.

How about this, you find me all thezse games you think ar eusing multitexturing, I'll wager some cash that they aren't. At least not in the way the other consoles do it without a performance hit.

SIGH.....

of course we all know that the geometry has to be resent, but we also know that the GS is fast enough to have that performance hit as long as u don't layer MANY textures, which doesnt happen on the others anyway, with the exception of maybe RL2 on gamecube.
multitexturing "the PS2 way" has been used ever since Tekken Tag in both the characters AND the floors (specular maps and/or specular highlights)
GT3, both burnouts, MGS games, to be honest i cant think of one game that doesnt feature some kind of multi texturing on PS2. i'm sorry mate i'm sure as hell about this, we can also ask archie and FAF if u want...