Perfect Dark 0- almost as good as GoW

[Supasso]

Rare feels comfortable getting its game to run at 30 FPS when all is said and done.

I'd be seriously pissed as a Xbox customer if the 30 Hz trend is set to continue into next generation. For gods sake, this is a first person shooter, not a card game and it's not Myst either.

oh please. 30 and 60fps games have been around for 20 years and a 30fps framerate has never prevented any games from getting high scores and/or being enjoyable. Having a stable framerate is way more important then having the game blazzing at 60hz. GT2 on PSone was sub 30 and it didn't make the game any less enjoyable. Halo 1 was around 25-30 and it's now considered a classic. Developers will always wrestle with framerates when trying to balance gameplay and graphics. You think the "30hz trend" won't be present on PS3?

edit: btw, TS1 also had an unstable framerate. It went back and forth between 30 and 60 pretty often. To me an unstable 30-60 framerate is a lot worse then a stable 30fps one.

Oh come on. Yes, 30 fps games have been around forever, and they are indeed playable, but the same can be said for low-res games. Would it be acceptable if the next gen games locked at 640 * 480? To me, fast frame rate is like like high resolution, and they what the next gen is all about.

 

[clem64]

30 and 60fps games have been around for 20 years

Great, so we're back in the 90ties.

Anyway, I think you should re-read again what I said: I never said games won't be fun - what I am saying is that this is next generation and with that, consumer expectations rise. Just as we want to see better graphics, we also want to see better animation, more colours and a minumum framerate of 60 Hz which should be a standard already in certain genres..

Excuse me... "we"? Whenever I talk to friends of mine about games or when I visit web boards, I most often hear about wanting better graphics, more of this, more of that but "a minimun of 60hz"? I don't hear that very often.

Besides, I also don't believe 60hz will ever be a standard. Developers will always try to put as much on screen as they possibly can while maintaining an acceptable framerate, regardless of how much power they have at their disposal.

I was mostly put off by Xbox because most of the games that interested me (mostly flagship titles) run at no more than 30 Hz..

I'm surprised to hear that. Too bad.

That a first party effort is aiming for 30 Hz in a flagship title, a first person shooter, is an utter disappointment, no matter how you look at it..

wtf? please tell me you're joking. From a "better graphics" standpoint you don't think some people would appreciate the tradeoff? What if the AI was so insane that it made the game 10x more fun but also run at 30hz, you don't think that'd be reason enough to aim for 30hz? Look at the reviews for Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Halo1 and 2... How do you suppose those reviewers were "looking at it" to give it such high scoring reviews. "Doesn't matter how fun those games are. They're 1rst party efforts and they're not running at 30 hz. It's a dissappointement"

I'd rather have half the detail and double the framerate. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think PDZ is aiming much further than TimeSplitters type of gameplay... (Deathmatches, many players, fast paced action)?


BTW; Most of my games that I own which for the most part are all flagship titles all run at 60 Hz - and this on current generation hardware (includes 5 launch games as well that run at that framerate).

And since you brought up Sony, I'm very glad to see that 60 Hz was mentioned on their slides as a target. That's what I want - and you'll see me bitching about 30 Hz titles on that platform as well if the game is either a racer or a first person shooter.

That's fine. If you like 60hz games so much, It's your choice. I just don't see the logic behind that. What if Killzone ends up getting insane reviews, like mostly 9.9 and 10s, but runs at 30hz. Will you be hesitant to pick it up? It's an honest question. You don't see yourself enjoying a FPS or racer if it's sub 60hz?

 

[clem64]

Oh come on. Yes, 30 fps games have been around forever, and they are indeed playable, but the same can be said for low-res games. Would it be acceptable if the next gen games locked at 640 * 480? To me, fast frame rate is like like high resolution, and they what the next gen is all about.

I can see your point. Can't say I agree. To me, level of detail, IQ, as well as resolution is something that I expect from next generation machines. But I see framerate as seperate from that. I would argue that gamers want mostly better graphics, better IQ and higher resolution, but not necessarily 60hz in every game. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Phil]

clem64,

I won't bother arguing this with you any longer since you obviously fail to realise that review scores and expected framerate (which goes hand in hand with graphics) are almost not related. Your example of a game with supposedly excellent AI forcing 30 Hz is amusing, but not quite from this world. Hint: Framerate is often a tradeoff related to visuals - not because of AI or any other reasons pulled out of thin air.

The amusing part is actually that Microsoft is pushing its console as the definite High-Definition generation console. What a shame that framerate isn't keeping up in the advancement for pixels and shading power*. Anyway, we'll just have disagree then. It's certainly a drawback for me and for the other Xbox consumers out there that do notice a difference, I hope PDZ isn't any indication of what is going to come.



* I'm aware that the tradeoff is up to each and every developer - but the point argued is that I was hoping that especially first party developers (regardless the platform) will set a benchmark that will grab other developers as well. If already developer(s) are competing for better visuals at 30fps now, why will anyone ever bother with 60fps later - especially if the percepted demands of most gamers are as quoted above "better graphics, better IQ and higher resolution"?

 

[Acert93]

Even if the PS3 GPU is 2x as powerful as the R500 we will still have the same issue. Developers choose to make that trade off. Some of it is art style, another is lack of optimization time, another is game genre, sometimes they overestimate their hardware and coding abilities, and sometimes it is just the realization that a 30FPS game looks better in still shots and that 2x the detail is often worth the 50% reduced framerate if only a small market of gamers (like Phil and me) really dislike it.

Funny you mentioned TS2--one of my fav games this gen. Very fast and smooth (unless you crank up the bots!)

I never see this issue going away. There are too many factors leading up to the frame rate being stable. But, as Phil is saying, SOME gamers are turned off by it. I do not see this as an R500 issue, but a general issue (like someone else noted, most people talk about the still shot eye candy and not how smooth it is.. too bad imo).

On a related note, Phil I am not sure we should shoot barbs at MS over this. If they are telling the truth, they are still on X800 video cards in dev units and unoptimized. I remember Halo getting a LOT better in framerate from E3 to launch. I have a hard time believing art direction can change (takes a ton of work to make, let alone totally change and then crunch for release) but framerate IS something that can be changed. The fact the lack luster Kameo struggles is more of an indication of early HW and backs this up too.

 

[clem64]

Even if the PS3 GPU is 2x as powerful as the R500 we will still have the same issue. Developers choose to make that trade off. Some of it is art style, another is lack of optimization time, another is game genre, sometimes they overestimate their hardware and coding abilities, and sometimes it is just the realization that a 30FPS game looks better in still shots and that 2x the detail is often worth the 50% reduced framerate if only a small market of gamers (like Phil and me) really dislike it.

Funny you mentioned TS2--one of my fav games this gen. Very fast and smooth (unless you crank up the bots!)

I never see this issue going away. There are too many factors leading up to the frame rate being stable.

I agree. Did Sony really say they were looking to make 60hz standard next gen? If so well, I'll believe it when I see it.

On a related note, Phil I am not sure we should shoot barbs at MS over this.

Thing is, Rare themselves said they were aiming for 30. I seriously doubt the game will run at 60 by launch. Hey hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[Acert93]

I agree. Did Sony really say they were looking to make 60hz standard next gen? If so well, I'll believe it when I see it.

Never heard that. I know they are supporting 1080p, and I assume that is 60Hz.

 

[Acert93]

After our 30-minute demo I was smiling, excited and still a little perplexed. Why didn't Microsoft show this on the showfloor, why didn't this very demo appear in motion in front of the hundreds of people crowded into the Shrine Auditorium? The demo I saw of Perfect Dark Zero, using an alpha kit running on a current-generation graphics card, is only running at 30% capacity. And it looked gorgeous. Absolutely beautiful, and nothing like the screenshots or clips you've seen so far. We'll have more on Perfect Dark very soon indeed.

Ok, so what were they showing??

They gush over the title (which considering they have been pretty blunt about other titles makes me think they are honest), so what gives?

The game sounds great... and if it has face-mapping, destructible environments, 50+ players online, BOTS, and plays well it should be great.

But like IGN, I am scratching my head... why not show it? If it is almost as good looking as Gear, this makes no sense.

 

[Inane_Dork]

MS has everyone and their mother talking about how the XDKs at E3 are only 25%-33% of the final console's power (or whatever it is).

Now, I think this is beyond MS's ability to predict, but they seem to have a great reaction so far. They're showing games and impressing the socks off a lot of people. Then they hit them with the alpha kit PR and the wonder is put back in their minds.

Next, they attack Sony for not showing real-time games. It's totally PR and borders on the despicable, but like I said, it's PR.

It almost seems like MS's conference was a feint and Sony took the bait. But I don't think MS is that crafty. At any rate, their current plan seems to be working great.

 

[jvd]

I'm going to come out for a second and give my opinion


IF pdz comes out as a launch title and has 50 player multiplay , has scanable faces and runs at only 30fps ... well I will live with it . Its a launch title .

 

[pc999]

What are MS doing :? :? :? :? :? :?

Call Of Duty 2

Forget the crappy trailer, the real game looks incredible.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/616/616786p1.html

 

[Acert93]

The trailer shown by Microsoft doesn't come close to the quality and clarity seen on the show floor. Aside from some aliasing (which will be gone before ship, it's required),COD 2 looks absolutely stellar on Xbox 360. The framerate had nary a hitch. It kicked some ass. Stop freaking out, the 360 really does have power!

First PDZ, now this. WHAT IS MS DOING??!!

Someone needs to be fired. Unless they pull out some kind of, "April fools" this has to be the worse handled E3 ever. It is not like MS does not have quality junk to show and talk about, it just seems someone has no organization skills.

The Nintendo On fake had more savy than whoever is leading the MS show. Next time: Leave the PR guys at home, screw the target groups, get the developers up there and share their passion.

 

[_phil_]

developpers have made a joke to Bill gates ,just to test his new pacemaker...?

 

[jvd]

Mabye the videos were finished before these new builds ? or mabye ms had everyone working triple time since last thursday ?

 

[pegisys]

It almost seems like MS's conference was a feint and Sony took the bait. But I don't think MS is that crafty. At any rate, their current plan seems to be working great.

you must not pay much attention to the fud they put out on linux

the time dreamcast came out I saw a few games in mags and on tv and they seemed ok but not enough to make me buy it. then I was in a store and was able to play the demos and I had to get one, that might be what microsoft is trying to pull off

were sony is showing high quality footage of what games may look on the ps3, but probally not for a year or two, and if the xbox360 ends up having better looking games than the ps3 at luanch some people might change there minds

 

[pc999]

Meybe they can do the same to the specs, and at the ensd of tomorow they say that the dev kits are only at 1/6 of the power.
(I ´am kinding ... , and now, more hopefull )

 

[Acert93]

I have a theory...

PDZ was an early build of multiplayer, on dev units of course, and wont be as impressive as the SP. It has body/face mapping, destructable environments, a lot of weapons, huge levels, and 50+ people with VoIP. It is also an upgraded port. The SP is what they are raving about (this also explains the difference in picture quality).

CoD2 trailer was a PC trailer and has footage/shots we have seen for a while. CoD2 demo they are playing represents the most recent work with more features on their engine going.

GoW, since it is a high end engine being developed with DX9+ specs as a foundation, is capable to take advantage of all the nice stuff here and now--even in the dev kits.

Kameo is an Xbox 360 port... same with DoA4. I would suspect TN is working on a new DoA4 with the new HW, but with the launch window so close and no real HW they are just going with what they have so they can have a launch title. The Madden footage and Fifa footage so far also look like ports.

ES: Oblivion is another DX9 PC title and not a console port explaining the better look.

The cross platform stuff--Xbox 360 and PS3--look good (like DarkSector).

Basically we have a lot of current gen ports, a few next gen titles and most of those are plagued with running on SM 2.0 hardware that is 50% less powerful.

Basically it looks/sounds like the HW was not ready and developers were left scrambling to do their best. MS did not prepare any demos, they did not pay to get fancy trailers. And whoever put it together seems to have forgot to actually get the best looking stuff. Obviously the finished GPU will be much faster and have free AA...

But it really makes you wonder who is oranizing all this stuff. What would have been so hard to show the GAMEPLAY footage of CoD2, PDZ, Gears, etc... and just mention, "Btw, PDZ MP will hve 50 people, destructable environments, and body/face mapping" and just leave it at that?

It is just silly at this point. They show PDZ at MTV, then totally pull back--only for us to learn it rocks. They show a lame CoD2 trailer, only to find out the game looks a TON better. They somehow are stupid enough NOT to spotlight Gears, GR3, and PGR (which is totally absent! ).

They need to hire the guy who made the Nintendo On video. I hope Gates and Co. sit down with Mr. Allard and ask him to explain why they have all these great games that are impressive yet he chose to show... Kameo? Full Auto?

 

[pc999]

I have a theory...

PDZ was an early build of multiplayer, on dev units of course, and wont be as impressive as the SP. It has body/face mapping, destructable environments, a lot of weapons, huge levels, and 50+ people with VoIP. It is also an upgraded port. The SP is what they are raving about (this also explains the difference in picture quality).

I thought they showed MP at E3, I may be wrong but I doubt...

 

[rusty]

I have a theory...

PDZ was an early build of multiplayer, on dev units of course, and wont be as impressive as the SP. It has body/face mapping, destructable environments, a lot of weapons, huge levels, and 50+ people with VoIP. It is also an upgraded port. The SP is what they are raving about (this also explains the difference in picture quality).

no, they were definately talking about the multiplayer... so that bit doesn't count as a reason :?

 

[Acert93]

Then what the heck were they showing at the MTV thing?! :?

They did not have a major jump in quality in 1 week. Something just is not right here...