PC system impacts from tech like UE5? [Storage, RAM] *spawn*

Discussion in 'PC Hardware, Software and Displays' started by MistaPi, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. eastmen

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    In something like ratchet and clank are you actually going to random worlds or does the game know exactly where your going ? Because it seemed like the first segment was on rails and you have no control over where you went (and it didn't seem in game either like the later parts) while the second portion it seemed like you were hopping to just one other part. So if the game already knows when you'd be moving to the next zone the engine could already start swapping data out for the new zone.

    We don't know about the ps5 but if its similar to the xbox series x it sounds like there will only be 13 gigs of total system ram avalible for the games. Some of that is going to be cpu related data. But if we assume 12 gigs for assets a system with 24 gigs of ram free allows you to store double the assets in main memory. If you have 48 gigs free you store 4 times the data. If you have a 3gb/s drive vs say 10gb/s data transfer your only looking at a little over 3 additional seconds to load in the data but 2 to 4 times the data stored in main system ram.

    In your Elder scrolls example if the player has a pot on them why would they remove the proper textures from memory ? Wouldn't it just be smarter to keep the textures for items on the character in storage to reduce fetching ? Also at the same time your still fetching additional from a nvme drive to the avalible ram , its just a slower drive.
     
  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Dunno. I used its premise as a hypothetical example;.

    "But what if you grab a vase from one area and place it in another?"

    If the player relocates the pot to some other part of the world, like their home, when moving to their home they need to access the resources for that area, plus the resources from the areas of content moved there. Potentially, the data from every area may need to be present.

    Yes. I said the issues might just be a bit of pop-in.
     
  3. eastmen

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    PC's are all about scaling. I think you will see more games require an ssd but not nvme. The first step is to remove HDD as gaming drives. Games as far as i can remmber since the early 90s at least had minimum specs and recommend. Gamers will buy what they can afford. I don't know many people gaming that are buying 16 gigs of ram unless its a laptop but those would be the lower end gaming ones
     
  4. pcchen

    pcchen Moderator
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    Unfortunately Steam Hardware Survey does not tell us which types of storage are on the users' computer.
    However, they do have data on system RAM size. Unfortunately (again), it does not have data on sizes more than 16GB, but only a "more than 16GB" number (7.79%). Of course, fractional sizes are very unlikely and "more than 16GB" are likely to be 24GB/32GB/64GB and more.
     
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  5. eastmen

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    I mean how is that handled now? Wouldn't it check a data base of where each item is in the game and know to preload it all in at the same time ? I mean how does it know something is supposed to be there in the first place ?
     
  6. manux

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    I know steam surveys are not be all end all and they likely skew heavily towards china/cheap internet cafe machines. That said based on steam statistics it's roughly only 8% folks with more than 16GB, around 40% for 16GB, 34% for 8GB.

    https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam

    One upside on streaming is that it scales very nicely with lod and also resolution. 1080p gamer would roughly only need 1/4th of texture resolution versus 4k. More detailed LOD could easily be pulled in as needed in priority order. For folks who don't have fast streaming/warm cache endure a bit of pop in.

    If one would assume decent nvme pcie3 ssd can serve 4k then plain old sata ssd would likely do fine for 1080p. And perhaps one of those pcie4 ultra fast ones can push something out that gives ultra and minimal pop in.
     
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  7. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Yes agreed it's not going to solve initial load times either at the start of the game or during sudden and unpredictable transitions between areas of the game that don't share many common assets (like certain fast travel scenarios).

    I was more presenting it as a solution to the idea of streaming in lots of high detail assets from disk during normal gameplay to an extent not possible on a system with a slower IO.


    On the contrary I'm assuming that not all data will be in RAM, but that a significant enough proportion if it (or at least the data your current environment is using) will be to result in less new data needing to be loaded in from the SSD. Streaming will still be required, you just won't need as much of it.

    Using the GTA Next example, perhaps on the PS5 you need to stream in all the in car assets every time you change cars. Whereas on a PC, you might have certain common in car textures stored in RAM, resulting in you only having to stream half the textures from SSD as opposed to all of them. Hence you've halved your streaming bandwidth requirement.
     
  8. manux

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    Once you start to add limitations then all kinds of things become possible. Even the always stream but also always cache low level lod in ram wouldn't take that much space. Then depending on your stream speed it's a pop in fest or not. when higher level lods are pulled in(and cached as memory allows) Or recycle assets and avoid consuming much memory.

    The killer is going to be quick travel. If game supports arbitrary quick travel it's pretty darn difficult to avoid load screen. Another killer seem to be that in real life it looks like not that many pc's have more memory than consoles(~8%).

    What I'm trying to argue for is that in ideal world we would just have fast streaming and no need to workarounds/limit creativity. Have ridiculously high level assets available and stream as needed. But we don't live in ideal world and it's interesting to see what developers come up with. In ideal world perhaps next next gen doubles ssd speed or perhaps we are ready to use something like optane in steroids at that point.

    Especially in VR streaming would be handy. Considering something like alyx it's not that uncommon to look at objects in VR very, very closely.
     
  9. Rurouni

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    Honestly, I think the impact will be very little. It would probably take few years for that first game that really need to have fast (storage) i/o to affect the PC landscape in terms of requiring fast i/o to be common enough. More memory can definitely help to reduce the impact of not having fast i/o but at the same time that is basically proposing a more costly solution vs simply buying a SSD. So I don't think most devs will create a game that is unplayable or have super annoying load time when you don't have SSD. If a PC have SSD then it will speed up loading time, or it can bring higher lod asset faster, etc, but they will not make a game where you need to instantly grab random 5GB data.

    For me, what needs to happen on PC regarding this fast i/o thing is that for something like Steam or MS to be able to use SSD as a game cache in a transparent manner. Basically a user can simply buy an external SSD, plug it into their USB3 port (and you need to pray that they plug it to at least USB3 port), and your game will be aware of it (either via game launcher like Steam or on OS level) and use it to run the game from it. Installing to SSD is of course better, but the key is how PC will manage it between HDD and SSD in a way that is relatively fool proof.
     
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  10. ToTTenTranz

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    The same survey also says over 90% of PC users are using 6-core CPUs or less, and when next-gen multiplatform games arrive that will probably need to change pretty fast.
     
  11. eastmen

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    It depends on what your doing. I have my gaming rig and then I have my surface pro 6. I haven't gotten a survey from steam on my main rig for over a year but i did a survey on my pro 6 3 months ago.

    I have games from 10 or 15 years ago on steam that run like a dream on my pro 6.
     
  12. Albuquerque

    Albuquerque Red-headed step child
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    This pre-supposes a rather rigid storage model in the game, where only one "map pack" can be loaded at a time, and where objects models and textures are uniquely grouped into the same storage blob as any one specific "map pack.". This contrivance seems highly unlikely. Modern games are built to stream from source media (thanks due to consoles limited memory, really) which results in well developed visible asset management systems in any modern gaming engine. Assets being the map, being textures and objects, and most of these items being reusable across the game.
     
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