Parhelia experience

[Typedef Enum]

That totally depends on the LCD....Older ones tend to suck...cheaper ones tend to be somewhat worse...more expensive ones are quite awesome.

That's sorta' the unfortunate aspect of LCD's at the moment, but it's slowly getting better...you know, better...faster...cheaper.

 

[KimB]

For what? 'cause LCD is the worst display for playing games - slow like hell.
CRTs, only CRTs...

Newer LCD's have faster response times that bring them almost up to par with CRT's.

Personally, I think the biggest drawback with LCD's with respect to games is the vastly less flexible resultion settings (i.e. use recommended resolution, or get a blurry or shrunk display).

 

[Nagorak]

What really would be awesome, though, would be to have an LCD that's as long as 3 panels put together, and which curves 180. Of course placing the display might be a bit difficult (so it's actually oriented correctly around your head), but can you imagine how awesome that would be???

For what? 'cause LCD is the worst display for playing games - slow like hell.
CRTs, only CRTs...

Well if my dream 180 display were to come out, I'd assume it would be in the distant future when LCDs have improved beyond CRT performance.

Hey, that's actually a cool name...the Dream 180... Now someone just has to draw up a plan to build it, and license the name from me! I won't require more than...90% of the profits.

 

[Basic]

Bending the display around you would mean some bad distortion that would need a lot of extra work to get rid of. It's much easier to get a correct perspective with a few flat panels, all directed at you. And you could still get a 180º view that way.

 

[Ozymandis]

I just have one question in regards to this, Ozymandis. Does this analysis include the UT2k3 demo? Man, that thing looks great!

Yes, it does. I've been playing quite a bit of that game on my GeForce3 with everything cranked. It looks good, but not that great. Several games on console look better (excepting resolution, of course) and of course this game is coming to Xbox in the next month and a half 8)

It does raise the bar for PC games though. Poly counts are nice, and the quality of the special effects is nicer, but what really gets me is the fantastic physics and animation. I was playing, got killed and blasted high into the air, and while I was falling got hit by another rocket which actually changed both the trajectory of my character and the posture of the model!

It still doesn't have the over-the-top use of pixel shaders like Wreckless, the excessive bumpmapping like Halo, the sheer poly counts of Gamecube's Rogue Leader, but it looks pretty good to me

 

[noko]

Nagorak and Ozymandis thanks for your answers. Hmmmm, the lower resolutions used by consoles does have a factor I see in quality while the standard features of the console are more exploited then PC type games use of the hardware enhancing the visual quality. Well the next up on the totem poll would be large Plazma displays, which are indeed very expensive. I can get a HDTV set monitor at 65" for around $2000 but large plazma displays go for around $6000 and up. The higher quality Plazma displays can show the higher resolutions. This one here can do 1600x1200 resolution and it is big, real big on your pocket book as well:

The display I want, yea I know, I am dreaming

 

[Ozymandis]

Nagorak and Ozymandis thanks for your answers. Hmmmm, the lower resolutions used by consoles does have a factor I see in quality while the standard features of the console are more exploited then PC type games use of the hardware enhancing the visual quality. Well the next up on the totem poll would be large Plazma displays, which are indeed very expensive. I can get a HDTV set monitor at 65" for around $2000 but large plazma displays go for around $6000 and up. The higher quality Plazma displays can show the higher resolutions. This one here can do 1600x1200 resolution and it is big, real big on your pocket book as well:

The display I want, yea I know, I am dreaming

Wow that's a nice set. But I wouldn't recommend plasma unless you've got money just falling out of your pockets though. They are nice, but at this date WAAY too expensive.

Also, you have to remember that display of the higher resolutions is dependent on what your console supports. Gamecube supports only 480i and 480p. Ps2 supports all four (480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i) but is limited to the lower two because of VRAM size. Xbox is the only console that fully supports all four resolutions in-game, but to date no shipping title has used anything over 480p

 

[noko]

Also, you have to remember that display of the higher resolutions is dependent on what your console supports. Gamecube supports only 480i and 480p. Ps2 supports all four (480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i) but is limited to the lower two because of VRAM size. Xbox is the only console that fully supports all four resolutions in-game, but to date no shipping title has used anything over 480p

Bummer on console games limiting the resolutions, which is probably isn't a real problem since most people don't have big screen HDTV's and definitely not expensive Plazma displays. Looks like computers and the games on computers could use and push to the limit these high end displays . Also looks like Matrox does have a niche with the surround gamming enviroment. Now when you put three CRT's together next to each other, don't they interfere magnatically with each other? Buying three CRT's is much cheaper then one CRT and two LCD's is my point.

 

[KimB]

Speaking of plasma displays, I was thinking: where does the name plasma come from? I doubt it to do with one of the two ways that I know plasma is currently used: for a part of human blood, or a state of matter in which all matter is ionized (this state of matter is usually only found during nuclear explosions and on the surface of the sun).

 

[noko]

Chalnoth,

This is how a plazma display works:

How plasma displays work
Gas-plasma display panels consist of gas in a plasma state, sandwiched between two plates of glass. Each plate is coated with conductive print; one contains vertical conductive lines and the other, horizontal lines. Together, the two plates form a grid and at the intersection of each line, the gas is stimulated to glow, creating a point of light, or 'pixel'. There are over a million such pixels in any screen.

Each pixel consists of three small cells of neon or xenon gas packed closely together. Each cell has an ultra-thin electrode on the top and bottom. When a voltage is applied, the electrodes generate an electrical discharge that causes the gases to emit ultra-violet rays. These rays then excite red, green and blue phosphor at the bottom of the cells. As these phosphors return to their natural state, they emit visible light, producing the appropriately coloured pixel on screen. Over 16 million colours can be produced this way, resulting in a high-definition image.

http://www.whatvideotv.com/articles/faq.html

Any time you strip the electrons away from a atom you have what is called plazma. A high enough voltage can stripe the electrons away in this case causing the atom to excite to a level in which it emits ultra-violet light which then excites the three different phosphors which in turn emit light that we can see. Neat .

 

[KimB]

Hrm, yes, I remember seeing lights that used similar effects in physics class. I don't remember the state of matter being termed a plasma, though, as I had thought the electrons were just in a higher state, not unbound. Still, I suppose the #1 benefit of using this for a light source is the fact that the light emitted is only of very specific wavelengths.

I do think it's funny how it's termed "a gas in a plasma state," however. After all, isn't that like saying ice is "a liquid in a solid state?" I suppose it can make sense, but it's not how I would say it...

 

[noko]

I do think it's funny how it's termed "a gas in a plasma state," however. After all, isn't that like saying ice is "a liquid in a solid state?" I suppose it can make sense, but it's not how I would say it...

I agree, it is probably only in a Plazma state briefly. It is kinda like how nuclear detectors work monitoring Reactor power on a Reactor. The gas is excited to a near plazma state by a voltage bias applied to two electrodes in which any ionization event (a gamma interaction or neutron interaction with the Niobium coatin) causes a cascade effect or what is called gas amplification where you have an avalanche of ions made as they acclerate towards the electrodes. Only real difference is that current flow through detector is measured vice the excited state which emits ultra-violet light depending on the electrical charge applied. Anyways it is kinda neat how this state of matter is used for something useful.

 

[mboeller]

Hi noko;

maybe this real Surround Gaming Display is for you :

http://www.elumens.com/products/products.html
http://www.elumens.com/products/visionstation.html

techspecs:
http://www.elumens.com/products/vstechspecs.html

 

[noko]

LOL , now that is more like it! Hell yea! Except the resolution is to darn low! Still it is one step closer to a holodeck . Gee, even the plazma display doesn't look good no more, you spoiled me .

 

[Ryu Connor]

1. 2D Quality: To say that Matrox understands what 2D quality is all about is like saying the Rams, the last few years, have had an OK offense. In short, the 2D quality is utterly stunning. I mean, it just blows away everything else. I've got ATI stuff here, nVidia (obviously), etc. There's just no comparison.

2. 2D Quality: Did I mention it was good? I'm sitting here right now with 3 monitors: 2 20" TFT's, and 1 CRT. You would not believe (hell, I can't believe) what an amazing difference Parhelia has made on this CRT.

This was really the item that caught my attention upon receiving my Parhelia. Let me explain. Prose mode engaged

I had just purchased two 21" monitors around the time of the initial previews of the Parhelia. That purchase created a problem that it looked like NVIDIA and ATI just weren't up to the task of solving.

I at the time was running a Visiontek MX200 PCI and a MSI GeForce 3 for multi-monitor support under 2000. They worked just fine for my two Sony 15" monitors at 800x600 (1600x600). I figured if I was going to get bigger monitors though I really needed to go for the gold and double my resolution to 1600x1200 (3200x1200).

I quickly found out upon getting these monitors setup that the NVIDIA cards I owned were a pretty poor choice for driving 1600x1200. They simply couldn't run 1600x1200 without suffering blurring. Shifting out the MSI GF3 for a Gainward GF4 Ti4200 didn't alleviate the situation at all.

I figured it was time to quit goofing around and do the right thing and the Parhelia seemed to fit perfectly: single card, full dual independent in Windows 2000, and a long term reputation for 2D quality coupled with the move to a fifth order filter.

I have exactly zero qualms with this purchase. A 3200x1200 desktop on these two 21" monitor is far more stunning and productive than any fancy schmancy pixel shader ever will be. Everytime I fire this box up I'm amazed by the quality of the output on these two monitors and by the sheer amount of space it has afforded me.

 

[Pete]

Ryu, did you try an ATi card with that setup? AFAIK, ATi doesn't allow independent resolutions in W2K, but as you have identical monitors, I wouldn't think that'd be a problem. A 9700 seems like a much better price/performance proposition ATM. Assuming you value gaming performance, that is.

Still, sounds like an incredible setup.

 

[Typedef Enum]

I can think of at least 3 real good reasons why the 9700 argument doesn't hold up (or any other)...

1. 2D Quality: If it's important to you...

2. Multi-Monitor Options: Nobody can offer the configurations that Matrox provides (on a single card).

3. Surround Gaming...

As I've said a bunch of times, what/how does a 9700/NV30 change existing games? Allows you to run @ higher resolutions w/ extreme settings, right?

OK, so after that comes and goes, is there really any "wow" factor left? I mean, if I were to plop one in my system right now, knowing full well that Doom III isn't coming out for a good amount of time, I would want to look @ it from the point of view of enhanced gaming with my current/older titles.

And I'm sorry to say, but the 9700 does not do it. In fact, when you add in the 16-bit FSAA limitation, it becomes even less so.

But back to the "wow" factor...I'm not trying to say that I don't like cranking up resoutions w/ good filtering...Not at all. It's just that I've been there before, and I know that it...

- Made a visual difference
- Wouldn't go back to what I was using before
- Lost its luster after a while.

Again...until something like Doom III rolls out, I look @ things with respect to current/older titles in mind...and the 9700, thought a very good chip, doesn't really "buy" you anything.

Surround Gaming, while not for everybody, really does change the dynamics of gameplay...and that list is growing (literally) each week.

I just hacked the Quake2 source code to support it, and it's pretty much a joke to implement. It's no wonder that they've been able to get pretty darn good support for this feature.

 

[Typedef Enum]

I thought I would also share some information, with regards to drivers and Matrox support...

Drivers

First of all, the drivers have been very good, with respect to compatibility. Forget about speed/optimizations, the first several months are all about NOT crashing your system.

Since I've had this card, I've not BSOD'd one time. This is a pretty amazing feat, given how much development Matrox had to do in getting this thing up and running. A jump from G400->Parhelia is quite large.

It's also obvious that Matrox is now beginning to tune their drivers. The last driver release really provided a huge jump in OpenGL CAD applications, along with Quake3-engine games. There have also been other optimizations that users have reported on over @ the MURC.

So, I think we're just beginning to see good performance out of this thing. I know this thing has a lot more headroom left, which is always a good thing.

Support

The other nice thing that I've noticed with Matrox is their interaction with users, which is quite a different thing with respect to nVidia.

They have personally emailed me with certain info (some of which has not been released...), posted to the MURC, etc.

There's one guy who's main mission is in the area of Surround Gaming. He posts fixes, new game titles, etc. Always responds to threads directed at him.

They have also just released a utility which handles Surround Gaming configurations...No more need to hack the registry, change config. files, etc. The app. takes care of everything for you.

Finally, they have also been dropping hints that some additional "stuff" will be provided in the upcoming release. One of those is definitely the overclocking tool, which should help boost performance (I've already seen overclocking data, and 30 MHz. jump in clock yielded something close to 20 FPS in some apps)...the others sound like a combination of FAA fixes, optimizations, and more features (A.F?).

Anyhow, the experience has been much better than I thought. I sorta thought that it would be a little scary, but much to my surprise, it has not been a problem.


[/u]

 

[noko]

If you want true surround gaming vice 3 flat monitors you need something like this:

I guess you stick your head inside and it modifies your brain waves or something .

Now any card can use that for better surround gaming if it works. Glad to hear about Matrox good drivers. Now they just need to get anisotropic filtering on par with the rest and performance up there for the newer games. How does the new demo's work as in UT 2003 and NOLF 2 play?

 

[jb]

I can think of at least 3 real good reasons why the 9700 argument doesn't hold up (or any other)...

1. 2D Quality: If it's important to you...

Well I dont have the same cards but I do have a G550 here. Using the same modle viewsonic monitors its really hard to tell the IQ difference between the R9700 vrs the G550. I know its not the same thing but ATIs 2d on the R9700 is pretty dam good for some on that codes and does mod work.

2. Multi-Monitor Options: Nobody can offer the configurations that Matrox provides (on a single card).

Yea I agree no contest here.

3. Surround Gaming...

Problem is that there is not enough fill rate to run it at a higer res in this mode. We have all seen the benchmark for Surrond Gaming. And while they are impressive you have to made trade offs to enjoy it.

As I've said a bunch of times, what/how does a 9700/NV30 change existing games? Allows you to run @ higher resolutions w/ extreme settings, right?

Oh lets see. SOF2 MP feels like a new game now. No more suttering or lag when smoke or fire nades go off. AVP2 also feels like a new game as the colors (when you can see them as some of the levels are dark) are vibrant not to mentung full AA/AF as well. The thing is every one of my games play smoother now at full res (probably just do to the higer speed than my 8500/gf4 ti4200). So its not the same wow factor...but it does give some wow factor..

And I'm sorry to say, but the 9700 does not do it. In fact, when you add in the 16-bit FSAA limitation, it becomes even less so.

I am sorry to say but you should try one before making that assesment. And yes 16 bit support for FSAA is a drawback. I hear that ATI is thinking of changing it...Besides how many games do you play are still at 16 bit?
And while FFA is good at x16 there are lots of cases where it does not work.

Again...until something like Doom III rolls out, I look @ things with respect to current/older titles in mind...and the 9700, thought a very good chip, doesn't really "buy" you anything.

It buys you the highest IQ that you can get today. No other card can run every game max settings with max AA/AF and delivier playable framerates in almost every game. It also buys you a short glimpse into the future will DX9.

I think you card is great for certian markets and people. I have no doubt it changed your view on games. But for the average gamer, then I think the 9700 caters a bit more to their needs now.