Pack in controllers for next gen systems

[Butta]

What should be the default pack in controllers for the Next-Gen systems given the new push for motion controls? Here's my best guess for the big 3:

Sony: Keep the existing controllers (Move and Dualshock 3). The bundle should include a DS3, Move and camera. This way they can continue to support both input devices. The only thing that should be modified is that the camera could get changed to an HD model that works better in low light. Bundling all this puts the system at a pretty high price though

Microsoft: Include Kinect and 2 small controllers (kinda like the navigation controller from Sony). This would make playing a game with camera and joystick possible. The joysticks would essentially have 2 face buttons, 2 triggers and one analogue controller. If possible, should include something to facilitate pointing (IR maybe).

NIntendo: Pretty much what they have now to better support backwards compatibility of their super successful Wii. The only difference would be better precision in the gyro, accelerometer and IR camera. Also the sensor bar could include a camera to at least get better positional info.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I think Sony will simply bundle the MOVE, PSEye and DS3 as they do now but also offer a PS3 sans MOVE bundle.

I'd ideally like them to find a clever way of designing an effective break apart controller that combines the MOVE with an L1 button and analogue stick with the Nav... designing such a controller however to be ergonomic would be a design nightmare and i'm not really sure it's really possible...

Then again though i'm sure if they hire some pretty talented HW designers they might just be able to pull it off.

 

[Nesh]

I am pretty sure Sony will be working on a Move/DS hybrid.

It will be interesting with MS since bundling a Kinect camera with the console itself is expected to increase the console price a lot, unless they can produce it more efficiently by then and assuming that the technology will remain almost the same without vast improvements.

 

[V3]

Sony need to integrate analog into the Move motion controller. Maybe have a seperate left and right motion controller, with all the DS3 functionality. Offer DS3 as optional and includes the pair of next gen Move controllers as standard as well as HD (maybe 3D ?) camera to track them. The current camera is really bad quality.

Move really shines when games are designed to use two of them at the same time. Much like 'Dual' Shock, maybe Dual Move would be standard for PS4.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Sony need to integrate analog into the Move motion controller. Maybe have a seperate left and right motion controller, with all the DS3 functionality. Offer DS3 as optional and includes the pair of next gen Move controllers as standard as well as HD (maybe 3D ?) camera to track them. The current camera is really bad quality.

Move really shines when games are designed to use two of them at the same time. Much like 'Dual' Shock, maybe Dual Move would be standard for PS4.

If they did a HD PSEye next gen and still supported the SD PSEye, wouldn't that fragment the userbase to the point that devs would just end up targeting the SD PSEye for games?

I'd rather they do a HD PSEye next gen and kill support for the PS3 version. The current MOVE/ PSEYE combo would still work on the PS4, and the MOVE2/PSEyeHD combo would be backwards compatible with the PS3 version games. That's the ideal situation IMHO.

They certainly shouldn't sell PS4 with the current PSMOVE/PSEYE if they intend to sell the updated versions.

 

[Butta]

If they did a HD PSEye next gen and still supported the SD PSEye, wouldn't that fragment the userbase to the point that devs would just end up targeting the SD PSEye for games?

I'd rather they do a HD PSEye next gen and kill support for the PS3 version. The current MOVE/ PSEYE combo would still work on the PS4, and the MOVE2/PSEyeHD combo would be backwards compatible with the PS3 version games. That's the ideal situation IMHO.

They certainly shouldn't sell PS4 with the current PSMOVE/PSEYE if they intend to sell the updated versions.

Why would the HD version not be backwards compatible with the old version for back compatibility? I'd rather get a camera update and all PS4 games would use the HD camera. Move controllers on the other hand (which is where people would not want to lose on their investment [4 controllers=$200]) must not be changed, it is damn near perfect.

 

[Butta]

Actually... just to better support people who already have enough Move controllers (and DS3) and don't need a pack in, assuming all that is changed is the camera, here's what bundles could be offered:

Regular bundle:
PS4
PSE EYE HD x 1
DS3 x 1
Move x 1

Discount bundle (for those who already have necessary controllers):
PS4
PSEYE HD x 1

 

[Arwin]

I would definitely expect at least a stereo camera, and I expect that even more so from Sony as they push 3D more, though what configuration of RGB versus infrared I have no idea and I dare not speculate.

The big advantage of a 3D camera is that when you do augmented reality you can integrate with a stereo video feed in a much cooler way (Kinect should be able to do this already for at least a static background for the 1.2-4.0m that the projector can cover - for moving stuff lag could be a bottleneck for superimposing on a live feed).

But an even bigger advantage of a 3D camera of course is when you're doing augmented reality on a 3D display.

It shouldn't be too hard to make a solution that's downward compatible, but I do expect that a handheld component like the Move is likely to stay in some form or other. I don't care for an analog stick to be honest, but expect that next-gen consoles can just stay supporting the previous gen's controllers for games that want to use that kind of controls still.

That will reduce the need to pack one in with the next-gen too. Of course you never know if they come up with something that allows a hybrid use (I have imagined a ring/trapeze shaped controller for both hands with a gun like trigger that can be connected together for a dual analog type setup at some point) , but I personally don't see an advantage of this over a dual-Move setup for next-gen (for this gen the advantage of navcon + Move imho is pretty much purely that it's easier to keep Move and DS3 controls more or less compatible).

My current ideal scenario may well be something that's still like a glove (yeah I know) and tracks and gives detailed feedback to individual fingers combined with a full high-res 3D camera. I could even imagine two 3D camera's used in conjunction to get a larger view, or as an option to, say, allow for more people to play together.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

All of them should be looking at a standard 3D camera system to cover that side of gameplay, and controllers for that side. Ideally I think something like Move/Wiimote+nunchuck should be standard. I like the idea of Move with nubs or somesuch used as a split DS controller. I don't know if a DS controller could be engineered to separate and effectively provide a Move if you plugged a ball in the top or something. Then again if they have accurate enough 3D (unlikely?) the spheres won't be necessary.

Any console makers who forgoes both systems will be at a significant disadvantage, and there's no excuse not to round out their systems (controllers for Kinect, 3D for PSEye, modern tech for Wii), unless they can find something new like telepathic control!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

unless they can find something new like telepathic control!

Already done...

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/1766/ocz_neural_impulse_actuator_mind_over_hand/index.html

Granted, it wasn't very good. Er, scratch that, wasn't any good at all.

Regards,
SB

 

[Danalys]

I think Sony could go for a split-able DS3 that one half or both could act as a navigation controller better than the current DS3. Packed in with a move and upgraded PS Eye, much like others have said.

If they can't launch at a price suitable for the masses then that would have to be a later addition like it was this generation. That is unless Move is a huge success and becomes de facto for FPSes. Kinect would have to be similarly successful for Microsoft to make it the default controller with the normal controller relegated to an optional purchase as it is on Wii.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

MS can't pick Kinect over controller unless they want to alienate all their hardcore userbase. Controllerless interfaces don't work particularly well for many games, hence Sony's choice of having them. For this gen that's not a problem for MS as they already provide a controller interface to cover those games, and have the option to integrate camera support with controller games to get the best of both worlds. Next gen they'll need some controller, although something Wiimote-like with a camera could be a choice versus dual-sticks. Definitely gonna be some buttons in there though!

 

[Danalys]

Kinect can get around some of the problems of Eyetoy by using depth. With Eyetoy you normally had to put your hand somewhere and wait for it to countdown with Kinect you could actually do a pushing motion to select things and act as a button press. I don't think the concept of Kinect is that much of a problem as it allows a lot of new ideas for ways of interacting. The reliability of the current implementation with regard to determining skeletons is the problem. A super accurate Kinect could basically have you playing with a virtual controller. Lack of feedback would be weird but perhaps not a problem.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A super accurate Kinect could basically have you playing with a virtual controller. Lack of feedback would be weird but perhaps not a problem.

Apart from the fact we won't have finger-tracking technology as sensitive as a dual-stick input next gen, it's not a matter or input accuracy but actual usability. Shooters want buttons. Hard-core Halo and Gears and MW players aren't going to be happy to point at the screen shouting ratatatat to shoot, or wiggling their thumb up and down. And do really feel pretending to hold a controller is going to work even if the accuracy were there? You think players are going to be happy moving their thumbs in mid-air and squeezing non-existent analogue triggers?

Something to hold and interact with is essential for some experiences. A console that forgoes buttons is marginalising its userbase. If you only offer arm-waving Minority Report interfaces, you lose all the gamers who come home from work and just want to sit back and relax playing their games. As there's no need to forgo buttons as they work perfectly alongside camera interfaces giving the best of both worlds, you want both packed in from the off. If I were to pick one over the other, I'd pick the conventional controller as you can do more with it for comfortable sit-down gamers, although this gen I was hoping and expecting Sony to bundle a camera with the PS3 as it's clearly the best situation for everyone.

 

[patsu]

Next gen ?

I reckon we may have 2 flavors:

(A) Living Room and Local MP games

General UI (e.g., navigation in XMB) should be controller-free.

Specific games (e.g., Force Unleashed XXX) should be played with controllers and hands at the same time. There should be less debate on whether having a controller is good or bad. Use whatever is natural.


(B) Game in Privacy (Mobile games)

Pad/Phone/Portable Game Consoles

No, I don't even want others to see my gestures.

 

[upnorthsox]

Apart from the fact we won't have finger-tracking technology as sensitive as a dual-stick input next gen, it's not a matter or input accuracy but actual usability. Shooters want buttons. Hard-core Halo and Gears and MW players aren't going to be happy to point at the screen shouting ratatatat to shoot, or wiggling their thumb up and down. And do really feel pretending to hold a controller is going to work even if the accuracy were there? You think players are going to be happy moving their thumbs in mid-air and squeezing non-existent analogue triggers?

Something to hold and interact with is essential for some experiences. A console that forgoes buttons is marginalising its userbase. If you only offer arm-waving Minority Report interfaces, you lose all the gamers who come home from work and just want to sit back and relax playing their games. As there's no need to forgo buttons as they work perfectly alongside camera interfaces giving the best of both worlds, you want both packed in from the off. If I were to pick one over the other, I'd pick the conventional controller as you can do more with it for comfortable sit-down gamers, although this gen I was hoping and expecting Sony to bundle a camera with the PS3 as it's clearly the best situation for everyone.

Agreed. That said though, where you could go with Kinect is dumber/more specific controllers instead of the all purpose 360 controller. This is something MS can work on thru the rest of this gen.

 

[eastmen]

MS natal with a split xbox 360 controller. you could play the 360 controller right now with a single hand that has acess to anlog stick and dpad you can also use a single hand holding just the face buttons and acess the shoulder ones also. So i think ms will split the controller into two hands that way you can still do motion with your hands while playing like the wii

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The problem with that is needing a drawer full of different controllers for different games. We've heard complaints about lots of controllers, including mixing four Moves and 2 nunchucks with 4 DS3's. Just like CE goods remote controls pile up, and people go out and buy all-in-one devices for convenience, you're going to want to minimise the number of controllers. compromising with complexity - a 50 button, 6 stick, 3 pad interchangeable monster could power any game but confuse the heck out of its users!

The current dual-stick design is an excellent all-round interface. Splitting that for independent hands and integrating with the camera sounds the best pack-in solution to me. If you could bend and connect them somehow into other configurations - dual-stick/nub controller, independent one-handed wands, gun-style controller - all the better. I wonder if a modular system would be a good idea, where you could add or remove stick, button, orb, nub and handle components into different configurations, and better yet have every game fully customisable. Would be ideal for mainstream gamers, but probably too confusing for the masses!

In fact, surely someone somewhere has patented something along such lines, at least as a separable dual-stick controller as we're all envisaging.

 

[Prophecy2k]

MS natal with a split xbox 360 controller. you could play the 360 controller right now with a single hand that has acess to anlog stick and dpad you can also use a single hand holding just the face buttons and acess the shoulder ones also. So i think ms will split the controller into two hands that way you can still do motion with your hands while playing like the wii

Split controllers don't work unanimously across all traditional gaming genres. Try playing a game like street fighter with half a 360 controller in each hand... eeeeeegh

While it's good for motion control, with a more sensitive 3D camera (ala kinect) there's simply no need to split the 360 controller at all, unless the controller itself contains motion sensors (ala the Wii-mote & nunchuck) which would further negate the need for the 3D camera.

I personally think that MS will simply sell their next console with a traditional controller and also do a Kinect 2 bundle. I don't think they'll be able to essentially throw in a kinect unit in every box for free and i don't think that every gamer buying an XboxNext would want the camera anyway. So long as they provide the option with a cheaper arcade bundle geared towards the casual gamer then i see no problem there.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

While it's good for motion control, with a more sensitive 3D camera (ala kinect) there's simply no need to split the 360 controller at all, unless the controller itself contains motion sensors (ala the Wii-mote & nunchuck) which would further negate the need for the 3D camera.

A next-gen 3D camera is still going to be limited and not able to provide the sensitive rotation info of a gyro, nor follow an occluded controller without accelerometers to describe hidden movement. Given your example, would SF really not work with d-pad in the left and buttons on the right, with subtle, natural user movements adding an extra layer of interactivity for dodges and rushes? I can see that working okay myself.