They get Kinect out, and start mass producing the tech. Next gen comes around, the tech is cheap and improved. You've gotta walk before you can run. I'm sure that's a big part of why they're doing this now and not waiting until next gen.
Official E3 Microsoft Conference Thread 2010
- Thread starter Arwin
- Start date
They get Kinect out, and start mass producing the tech. Next gen comes around, the tech is cheap and improved. You've gotta walk before you can run. I'm sure that's a big part of why they're doing this now and not waiting until next gen.
So you're saying multi-touch doesn't offer any advantages over a mouse and keyboard? Back when Quake came out there were people complaining that the mouse and keyboard was far too complicated as a control scheme. Back when 3D came out there were people complaining that it would never be able to surpass the image quality of 2D animation. Motion controls is just another in a long line of changes that people will resist and then adjust to and then expect as a standard. The next thing will come along and they'll start whining again. Sure, motion control isn't perfect now, but that's why we'll have hybrid systems for more advanced functions.
yep these look like my numbers too
??? Since when did I say multi-touch UI "doesn't offer any advantages" over a mouse ? ^_^
MT interface is great for a phone UI and a tablet UI. However, there are scenarios where I wish a pen is there especially for editing text on the iPhone. My finger would block the small edit field. Or the shuffle puck game doesn't lag 2 seconds behind my finger. For desktop computing, My Mac laptop has multi-touch gestures for the trackpad and even on the mouse cover (Multi-touch for the desktop LCD screen would be too tiring). But I prefer to use a good old Logitech mouse.
And your Quake story has nothing to do with me.
Exactly... downplaying this presentation as not having games when these are the games of the generation (deference to RDR and FO3) and then adding ESPN on demand Hidef channel (exclusive) a redesigned, more relevant hardware package, a price drop and all of the introductory Kinect stuff that is going to evolve and encompass a market of untapped potential. That market is wives and GF's of X360 gamers who would never go out of their way for a Wii and or don't have kids.
Was reading along on another boards and several guys commented that their wives/GF's, who do not play games, said SOLD when they saw the animals/adventure/sports/fitness /dance stuff.
I'd say this show was a success, huge in fact, just under appreciated by the hardcore.
Had to work today, so I'm still trying to catch up with the briefing and all the videos. But I got the highlights & so far I pumped for Reach, Kinect(non-fitness/dance titles & dashboard integration), ESPN and the new system is sweet! Can't really believe there hasn't been much talk on ESPN. That's insane what they're offering for free. Can't wait for college football.
Surprised we didn't hear anything about Hulu or Primetime/1 vs 100. There wasn't even one quiz-style Kinect game. Also, not announcing a price for Natal although not totally surprising is definitely making me uneasy about getting one. They're definitely setting it up for a better value by including it with the system. Which I think might hold back uptake from current owners. I also saw a lost opportunity to announce some XNA integration for Kinect. But since Windows Phone 7 is holding back some of the XNA Framework updates I can understand why they may want to wait to announce later when WP7 is launched.
More comments in a little while after some more video watching...
Tommy McClain
Surprised we didn't hear anything about Hulu or Primetime/1 vs 100. There wasn't even one quiz-style Kinect game.
Also, not announcing a price for Natal although not totally surprising is definitely making me uneasy about getting one. They're definitely setting it up for a better value by including it with the system. Which I think might hold back uptake from current owners. I also saw a lost opportunity to announce some XNA integration for Kinect. But since Windows Phone 7 is holding back some of the XNA Framework updates I can understand why they may want to wait to announce later when WP7 is launched.More comments in a little while after some more video watching...
Tommy McClain
??? Since when did I say multi-touch UI "doesn't offer any advantages" over a mouse ? ^_^
MT interface is great for a phone UI and a tablet UI. However, there are scenarios where I wish a pen is there especially for editing text on the iPhone. My finger would block the small edit field. Or the shuffle puck game doesn't lag 2 seconds behind my finger. For desktop computing, My Mac laptop has multi-touch gestures for the trackpad and even on the mouse cover (Multi-touch for the desktop LCD screen would be too tiring). But I prefer to use a good old Logitech mouse.
And your Quake story has nothing to do with me.
Then what was your point? Shadowrunner said we still use a mouse to interface with our computers because no one had found an improved interface. It was pointed out to him that there are multi-touch computers, and the reason we use them is they ARE better at some things. Motion control is the same thing. It will have uses that are an improvement over the standard gamepad, but there will also be areas where it might not be as good at this point.
I'd say this show was a success, huge in fact, just under appreciated by the hardcore.
Where are the 'non-hardcore' even watching the show? Are they avid Spike TV watchers? And it was a success among whom? Gamers' wives, who most likely already own a 360?
None of those would normally be watching after the Call of Duty, Gears of War and Halo demonstrations! The first 40 minutes or so was pure violence (even Fable, basically). I only showed my wife the six Natal games and some of the UI stuff. She thought, as did I, that many of the presenters suck horribly, and that Sudo was particularly ridiculous. But she was enthousiastic about the fitness and dance games nonetheless. Personally I thought only the black guy showing the Zune stuff was a good presenter, basically.
If you get the gist of his posts, he's refering to the maturity and precision of the mouse interface for daily activities. In general, alternate UI does not and has not offered any clear advantage yet. Even MT UI has not delivered where mouse UI is prevalent. In general, MT UI will have the problems I mentioned. Perhaps that's partly why MS experimented with a pen-based input concept like Courier.
Unlike your hasty jump to conclusion, this does not imply that MT interfaces does not offer any advantage over mouse. It may mean that they can be used in areas not to replace mouse, but to complement it or co-exist with it. e.g., Mouse is not used on truly mobile platforms such as phones and pads where there is no desk around. Or MT interface may overcome its shortcomings somehow to compete better with mouse.
Similarly, from what he has seen so far, he feels that motion sensing hasn't offered a clear advantage to sticks. Whether and how motion controller can replace stick is an on-going work (See Socom 4 and so many Wii examples). In fact, the scope should be natural interface instead of just motion sensing.
This would be perfect. Esp. the $300 bundle. I'm gonna try to exhibit self control and wait for the Kinect bundle. The new iphone will hopefully satisfy my new toy urges for now
I guess that the fitness and dancing scene is going to really explode now.
Here are 500+ 4.5 star reviews for ubisoft's Just dance for Wii. Reading the comments, people seem to be genuinely into it.
I don't understand how the wii version even works.. From the youtube vids, I'm guessing people just copy the dancer on the screen? Doesn't seem very interactive to me. Kinetic is way better in that it can give you feedback on your dancing and such.
edit: actually, the dancers do hold on to one controller. Obviously, the system can't keep track of anything other than one hand.
Very inelegant.
Here are 500+ 4.5 star reviews for ubisoft's Just dance for Wii. Reading the comments, people seem to be genuinely into it.
I don't understand how the wii version even works.. From the youtube vids, I'm guessing people just copy the dancer on the screen? Doesn't seem very interactive to me. Kinetic is way better in that it can give you feedback on your dancing and such.
edit: actually, the dancers do hold on to one controller. Obviously, the system can't keep track of anything other than one hand.
Last edited by a moderator:
It doesn't work so well in that it forgives a lot of mistakes and is really imprecise. But it has cool music and cool dancing sillhouettes and apparently that's all it takes.
Where's Joker? I can't believe how much he was hyping up Microsoft's Natal push to developers when what we've ended up with is literally a Wii Fit, Wii Sports and Just Dance clone from every single publisher. Child of Eden is the only thing that looks remotely interesting, was only at the Ubi presser, and still looks like it would work just as well, if not better with a PS Move (though I've not heard one way or the other if that will happen). At least MS had enough shame to bribe the entire audience with free consoles. What a tragic bore of a conference. Probably would have been the worst event at E3 if ubisoft didn't swoop in with their misguided laser tag demo... Still, I'm calling this Microsoft's Waterloo. They have completely lost the plot.
There was a time when Stylus pens defined smart phones. The touchscreens were clunky, unresponsive and had a host of issues compared to the stylus. However touch displays kept evolving and I'm sure the number of people asking for a stylus on a smart phone these days can be attributed to a rounding error. In normal day life, I can't recall the last time someone broke out a stylus!
What Scott is saying (I think) is that you need to give it time to evolve and see where it goes. People love to slam 1st gen products, even more so if they're not represented by their team, instead of seeing what possibilities it could lead do.
Do I expect Natal to be perfect? absolutely not. All I'm expecting from Natal 1.0 is a fun entertainment device that progresses over time. My expectations for Natal 2.0 will be much higher and sky high for 3.0 Even if MS flops with Natal 1.0, I hope they continue their commitment and focus on future versions. They're certainly headed in the right direction.
Stylus pen is not mouse though. Afterall, most pen/stylus based input also supports touch screen. The reason why iPhone UI works so well is because of the polish and responsiveness. Most of the input do not require multiple touches at all. In fact, the UI guide dissuades people from overusing multi-touch (Why the %&$*(%&($ hell would I want to use a 3-finger swipe ?). The magic is in the software -- and it should probably work equally well for both stylus and finger.
That's not what he said to me.
If you look at my past posts, I recommended Sony to continue their PS Eye work too despite its shortcomings.
Well, I'd disagree. There's a huge amount of interest in touch-screen tablets right now. Doing some general activities is much easier or more convenient on a touch screen tablet.
Anyway, this is getting way off track, but I think there's already experience that is fundamentally different with wiimote, ps move, kinect that is completely outside the realm of a gamepad. The act of doing something is not comparable to pressing a button and watching it happen. You can't diminish the fact that motion control exists and people like it. Sure, there's room for improvement, especially with wiimote, but it is still doing something that absolutely cannot be done with a gamepad. Sure, you can say, "But it doesn't work with ..." and that might be true, but it completely overlooks its usefulness. It's not a matter of whether it's "better". It's proven, it works, people like it and it has many advantages over a gamepad that can't be disputed.
I think the general consensus has always been that motion control works very well for a subset of games. I'm not sure Natal/Kinetic changes that.
They have been working on touch-screen tablets for ages. Same problem(s). Has the disadvantages I mentioned, plus a bunch others which they are trying to overcome now.
Does that mean MT interface does not offer any advantages over mouse ? Not at all.
That's close to what I'm thinking. I think Pachter is probably right that Kinect price is probably going high. Here are my guesses...
Kinect standalone: 149
Xbox Arcade: 149
Xbox Arcade + Kinect: 250
Xbox Slim: 299
Xbox Slim + Kinect: 399
There's too much value add in the new Slim for them to drop the price this year. I don't see them dropping the price on it at all. I also don't see them going back to 3 SKUs either. So the $250 Elite SKU is EOL. I also think they will keep the current Arcade SKU at $150. However, they could bring in a Slim model with no hard drive, but since it has Wireless N included I can't see them offering it at $150. So I feel it's unlikely they will release a barebones version of the Slim this year, maybe next spring at the earliest.
The "+ Kinect" bundles I don't see them being as official Microsoft bundles packed inside the regular systems, but more like an official special/coupon they offer to new 360 owners to get Kinect: buy a system & Kinect and get $50 off Arcade or get $100 off Slim. This will keep Microsoft and retailers from having to have more than 3 SKUs(Arcade, Slim & Kinect) in stock. This way Kinect owners feel like spending that extra money they saved on more Kinect games since I'm pretty sure only 1 game will come bundled with the camera.
Tommy McClain
Similar threads
