NVIDIA shows signs ... [2008 - 2017]

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16%, or $106M, of their revenue came from high margin workstation business as well. Desktop margins must be fairly horrible...

http://seekingalpha.com/article/136355-nvidia-f1q10-qtr-end-4-26-09-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1
I was wrong in another thread about them not writing stuff off in FY2009Q4 and it seems that write-down was slightly under-estimated, so that had a minor negative effect on margin.

They reckon ~4% of their margin miss this quarter was due to the lack of recovery in the professional/workstation sector.

I think the overall conclusion was that desktop margins didn't change (they didn't fall), while desktop's revenue grew by almost 50%.

ASPs were stable, but with GPUs representing only 53% of revenue, I imagine ASP falls in certain desktop discrete are fairly well hidden, along with the GTX275/GTX295 helping at the high end.

Jawed
 
OK, that was a bit of a shocker for me. I was expecting Nvidia's margins to be up greatly similar to how AMD's margins are up.

Considering AMD is in a price war with not only Nvidia but a much more aggressive Intel, I really had been under the assumption that Nvidia's margins would be 30% at the very least.

Was anything mentioned about how much profit/loss was made?

Regards,
SB


Margins might have gone up for AMD, but ASP's dropped on the gpu end, so margins on what went up, CPU's?

nV was able to maintain ASP's but margins dropped because of as Jawed stated, and also still have writeoffs of old inventory and dropping of the 65nm parts.

V-rr doesn't matter what you state, you didn't read the entire conference call they were pretty specific why their margins got hurt and it had to do nothing about the price war, since ASP's were maintained.
 
Margins might have gone up for AMD, but ASP's dropped on the gpu end, so margins on what went up, CPU's?

nV was able to maintain ASP's but margins dropped because of as Jawed stated, and also still have writeoffs of old inventory and dropping of the 65nm parts.

V-rr doesn't matter what you state, you didn't read the entire conference call they were pretty specific why their margins got hurt and it had to do nothing about the price war, since ASP's were maintained.

I'm not sure. It's a bit of a puzzle. 5% of the increase in margin is due entirely to writing off inventory from Q4 08. So that leaves actual non-write off margins at 35%.

I can't imagine CPU margins are all that great considering Phenom and Phenom II are both larger than any competing Intel Chip. Is Athlon x2 selling well with big margins? Not sure on that as those are going dirt cheap right now also.

It's possible that margins are still quite high on ATI CPU's but would that be enough to bring up the average margins for the whole company?

I dunno, since they didn't break down margins for each division. And unfortunately it'll be even harder to tell in the future since CPU and GPU will be rolled into the same division.

As for Nvidia, considering the writeoff of inventory in Q4 08 and the fact that G92b can't be much more to produce than Rv770, unless the yields on them aren't as good. I can only think that they may be selling GT200 with either single digit margins or negative margins (selling them at a loss in the consumer space). Which would help explain low margins even in the face of G92(b) based products selling like hotcakes.

Regards,
SB
 
I really had been under the assumption that Nvidia's margins would be 30% at the very least.
Uhm, guys, you *do* realize NVIDIA's margins *are* 30.6%, right? 28.6% is the GAAP number, which includes the tender offer which is an employee retention scheme to compensate for their stock dropping so much. That number cannot be compared to anything else. Mind you, 30.6% is also quite abysmal.

Only other thing I'd point out is that Seekingalpha poster is wrong, the $50M for 2009/$100M runrate is for Tesla, not Tegra. That kind of runrate seems more than realistic for Tegra though if design wins aren't even more delayed than I think they are...
 
28% of revenue was MCP, ~$186M (stated $180M in CC, so some contradiction). These margins are reported to be "about or better than corporate average." then qualified as "historically", i.e. not the 30.6% stated in CC (I calculate 30.2% from statement) for this quarter. Not sure if that means average historical margin for chipsets (has that ever been known?) or general corporate average - 40%? 45%?

Using 40% would imply that margins on the remaining 73% of revenue were ~27%.

---

Are there any laptops with AMD CPU + NVidia chipset? Is NVidia competing with ATI laptop chipset graphics or is ATI competition there solely in discrete laptop graphics?

Jawed
 
Uhm, guys, you *do* realize NVIDIA's margins *are* 30.6%, right? 28.6% is the GAAP number, which includes the tender offer which is an employee retention scheme to compensate for their stock dropping so much. That number cannot be compared to anything else. Mind you, 30.6% is also quite abysmal.

Horseshit. Use GAAP margins, not 'imaginary rules' margins.

That employee retention scheme is employee compensation, which is part of the cost of keeping your smart employees in place (as opposed to say, going to Intel, ATI, Apple, Google, etc.). It may be one time, or it may not.

Only other thing I'd point out is that Seekingalpha poster is wrong, the $50M for 2009/$100M runrate is for Tesla, not Tegra. That kind of runrate seems more than realistic for Tegra though if design wins aren't even more delayed than I think they are...

$50M for tesla seems optimistic, but what do I know?

DK
 
Horseshit. Use GAAP margins, not 'imaginary rules' margins.
I never said that number wasn't useful. It is. But it is not COMPARABLE; it won't tell you anything about how much money NVIDIA makes selling their chips and how that looks compared to AMD or Broadcom.

It may be one time, or it may not.
Don't mix normal stock compensation which does less than a 0.5% impact normally and this, which NV only did one other time in 2003 iirc when their stock also crashed. Comparing margins with just SBC would make some sense but needs manual calculation to achieve when there are other GAAP effects.

$50M for tesla seems optimistic, but what do I know?
It does seem aggressive but they are selling many millions every quarter right now, so certainly still credible. They also mentioned stimulus packages should help university spending - heh :)
 
V-rr doesn't matter what you state, you didn't read the entire conference call they were pretty specific why their margins got hurt and it had to do nothing about the price war, since ASP's were maintained.

< 30% margins for 2 consecutive quarters with 2 consecutive losses. ya, doesn't matter what I state. Facts are facts and Nvidia is following AMD steps (uncompetitive products + lower margins = loss)
 
< 30% margins for 2 consecutive quarters with 2 consecutive losses. ya, doesn't matter what I state. Facts are facts and Nvidia is following AMD steps (uncompetitive products + lower margins = loss)


Gross margins are also affected by amount of products solid vs amount of products manufactured, so total sales also go into that percentage, you are looking at the numbers as an end result which isn't always the best way of looking at things. Uncompetitive products don't gain marketshare, unless people are buying rocks that are marketed as gold, that doesn't work in the market place. Still factor in the stock buy back + write off's, they pretty much broke even or lost only 50 million, then add in what the volume sales were if the economy wasn't bad, well thats somewhere in the neigbhorhood of 4-8 million more chips/cards. Guess what those margins figures aren't too bad.

Why did AMD's GPU ASP's drop vs nV ASP's remained, how did that affect gross margins, why was there a shift in marketshare how did this affect margins, who's driving the market with the price war, did the price war affect margins? Why haven't we seen tangible benefits from the price war when we are looking at the bottom lines of both companies? These seem like simple questions if we only look at the end results, but its much more complicated then what you are suggesting.
 
Gross margins are also affected by amount of products solid vs amount of products manufactured, so total sales also go into that percentage, you are looking at the numbers as an end result which isn't always the best way of looking at things. Uncompetitive products don't gain marketshare, unless people are buying rocks that are marketed as gold, that doesn't work in the market place. Still factor in the stock buy back + write off's, they pretty much broke even or lost only 50 million, then add in what the volume sales were if the economy wasn't bad, well thats somewhere in the neigbhorhood of 4-8 million more chips/cards. Guess what those margins figures aren't too bad.

Why did AMD's GPU ASP's drop vs nV ASP's remained, how did that affect gross margins, why was there a shift in marketshare how did this affect margins, who's driving the market with the price war, did the price war affect margins? Why haven't we seen tangible benefits from the price war when we are looking at the bottom lines of both companies? These seem like simple questions if we only look at the end results, but its much more complicated then what you are suggesting.

Nvidia gaining market share? Yeh, that´s looks good on paper this quarter, but did that mean they sold more cards? No.
Nvidia shipped more cards then ATI in a season of stock readjustment. This is like Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo in console wars with messes of shipped vs sold.

As far as I know in Q1 2009 ATI on the opposite of Nvidia stopped almost all production/shipping and managed it stocks. That resulted on 1M profit of the GPU division with 230M sales. Also reports say ATI is going to duplicate and triplicate production in Q2 and Q3 to readjust production/demand:
According to the paper, AMD ordered less than 2,000 wafers for January and February, but the volume has doubled to 4,000-5,000 units this month. The graphics chip vendor is expected to place orders of 8,000-9,000 wafers with its Taiwan-based contract chipmakers for April, and the volume will climb to 10,000 units in May and June.
http://digitimes.com/news/a20090319PB212.html

Don't make to much party around discrete market share when that market is 50% less then it was a year ago and year on year Intel gained 6% only with crap igp´s, AMD lost 1.5% and Nvidia lost 1.6% on overall market.

We are discussing peanuts on discrete market right now. I only take conclusions about market share on Q2/Q3 or Q4 depending on market conditions. This quarter instead of 1M profit of ATI GPU they could shipping huge amounts of cards, take a loss on finances and market share remains equal.

Also:
In any case, Nvidia's marketshare took a jump in Q1. What it is not telling you is that marketshare growth was mainly due to the company dumping about a million units of 65nm DX9 inventory that it had previously written off.

If you do the math, that is more than enough to make up for the marketshare unit gains. What is a bit more troubling is that the margins for discrete GPU sales were not disclosed. Using the numbers that Nvidia did give out, the totals don't add up unless GPU margins were about half of the overall corporate margins. That is bad. Bad bad bad. Your core business should not be struggling to have double-digit margins.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137261/nvidia-spin-borders-truth

Nvidia is following AMD steps has I said before. Read the signs.... AMD had their best quarter and gained market share in the quarter before enter in loss over and over years ago. And Nvidia shares value are reflecting this right now. Despite market share gains.
The market is reading the signs.... (loss over loss, margins way down, GPU business with margins that no one knows, market share gains dumping 65nm DX_9 gpu's on the market to see if it eats it, massive renaming with uncompetitive products, mobile GPU failure, 55nm GPU's took to long to the market and is already late on 40nm, and so on...)
 
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As far as I know in Q1 2009 ATI on the opposite of Nvidia stopped almost all production/shipping and managed it stocks. That resulted on 1M profit of the GPU division with 230M sales. Also reports say ATI is going to duplicate and triplicate production in Q2 and Q3 to readjust production/demand:

http://digitimes.com/news/a20090319PB212.html


Hmm you forgot nV did the same?

Don't make to much party around discrete market share when that market is 50% less then it was a year ago and year on year Intel gained 6% only with crap igp´s, AMD lost 1.5% and Nvidia lost 1.6% on overall market.


What are you getting at? You are convoluting your arguement with nonsense

We are discussing peanuts on discrete market right now. I only take conclusions about market share on Q2/Q3 or Q4 depending on market conditions. This quarter instead of 1M profit of ATI GPU they could shipping huge amounts of cards, take a loss on finances and market share remains equal.



http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137261/nvidia-spin-borders-truth


hmm yeah could you please link to something that has someone that actually knows what he/she is talking about.

just a hint 65nm dx9 cards, when did nV go to 65nm? Wasn't it with the gf8 and 9? ;) Those weren't dx9 cards oh wait in his twisted mind they were. Its really hard to take the article serious because of it's unproffesional, mistake riddled nature.
 
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Hmm you forgot nV did the same?
Nvidia still made a loss if you take those 140M for employers. Total loss was 201M.

just a hint 65nm dx9 cards, when did nV go to 65nm? Wasn't it with the gf8 and 9? ;) Those weren't dx9 cards oh wait in his twisted mind they were. Its really hard to take the article serious because of it's unproffesional, mistake riddled nature.

Just go to Valve survey 2/3 months ago and see GF8800 get boost on market share.
And yes you have no idea how some markets get dumped by huge amounts of old chips.
You have stock sit there. Solution: ship it to china, India or Africa for peanuts. Finances and margins go down, but market share go up. The problem is that you can't do this forever.
Don't forget that discrete market share is Shipped not Sold and one GF8600GT counts as much as one GTX 295.
 
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Just go to Valve survey 2/3 months ago and see GF8800 get boost on market share.
And yes you have no idea how some markets get dumped by huge amounts of old chips.
You have stock sit there. Solution: ship it to china, India or Africa for peanuts. Finances and margins go down, but market share go up. The problem is that you can't do this forever.
Don't forget that discrete market share is Shipped not Sold and one GF8600GT counts as much as one GTX 295.


You can't take the valve survey on a per monthly basis, if you did then people are still buying fx cards according to it in some months, it can be used for a general guideline but not who is buying what at what period.

and hmm those 65nm dx9 chips are being dumped on India and China :smile:, wow nV must have some chips that only go there, I've never seen them here. Oh by the way I'm very familiar with India's computer markets.


BTW look at the previous quarter statements for nV and inventory reduction with slowing down production, now you are going about talking shareholder, that wasn't your original comment.
 
You can't take the valve survey on a per monthly basis, if you did then people are still buy fx cards according to it in some months

and hmm those 65nm dx9 chips are being dumped on India and China :smile:, wow nV must have some chips that only go there, I've never seen them here. Oh by the way I'm very familiar with India's computer markets.

As I said China or India I could say USA or any country.
You want one Nvidia FX 5200 today? You have plenty of them to choose: :LOL:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=fx+5200&x=0&y=0


Razor1 said:
BTW look at the previous quarter statements for nV and inventory reduction with slowing down production, now you are going about talking shareholder, that wasn't your original comment.
What the Inq state is that some writen-off inventory was shipped to the market. So it doesn´t count to that inventory reduction.
Writen-off inventory is the same as it doesnt exist, but still it can be shipped on next quarters and make money of it.
AMD made money on Q1 2009 for writen off inventory on Q4 2008.

Nvidia shipped that inventory, influenced market share and made no money of it = just dumped it way.
 
As I said China or India I could say USA or any country.
You want one Nvidia FX 5200 today? You have plenty of them to choose: :LOL:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=fx+5200&x=0&y=0

and what is the % of those cards and who would buy those cards,

What the Inq state is that writen-off inventory was sold. So it doesn´t count to that inventory reduction. Writen-off inventory is the same as it doesnt exist, but still it can be shipped on next quarters and make money of it.
AMD made money on Q1 2009 for writen off inventory on Q4 2008.

Nvidia shipped that inventory, influenced market share and made no money of it = just dumped it way.


Now you don't know the purpose of a write-off, they write that off and they don't make money on those chips, a write off is a way of saying we made these chips but can't sell them and we aren't going to make money on them, so a business can possibly take a tax break on that amount. Its against the law to write something off take a tax break then go back and sell it. Write off's are concidered business expenditure, and a non taxible amount. For example when a company pays its employees, that amount is a business expenditure and that amount isn't taxed, the empolyee is taxed but not the corporation even though they made that amount of money to begin with.
 
That´s the trick. Market share = shipped not sold ;)
Also if you dump those cards away like almost free people can pick them.


ok please look up your business terminology at least.

Yes marketshare is calculated by shipped but a write off means no money was paid for those chips, acutally those write off chips are probably not even sent out the door, there would be no use since no one makes money on them and nV or AMD would rather make money then just send out discarded chips.
 
For example when a company pays its employees, that amount is a business expenditure and that amount isn't taxed, the empolyee is taxed but not the corporation even though they made that amount of money to begin with.
Companies pay payroll taxes on employees' salaries.
 
Companies pay payroll taxes on employees' salaries.


oh yeah but that comes out of the empolyee's salary (taxes that are withheld from paychecks to the employee), the corporation doesn't pay taxes on the money made on that portion though.

Lets say a company makes 500k, and pays out 150k in salaries and 50k company expenditure, the total taxable amount is only 300k (for corporate income tax). Now lets say we have a write off of 200k from previous years left over stock that isn't sold, the company can take that 200k and say hey we didn't make money on this stock but we paid taxed money from the previous year to manufacture that stock so we should get that tax back since we invested in the compnay and we won't see that return. (this is very generalized I know but its gets really complex on how they do it), anyways now the next 200k they make they can we don't need to pay tax on this portion because we already paid for it.
 
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